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Lapell
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Because of Potiphar’s wife? Now this is new to me! Why because of Potiphar’s wife? Not all women descend from her, not even just the Arab women…
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Angelos
Guest
This is simply the “logic” the authors of the Koran followed: potiphar’s wife told lies and tried to deceive her husband because she was a woman and because all women are inherently deceptive creatures.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Good question. I can’t give you a number of “how many people” can interpret the Qur’an, (I don’t know it, nor could count them), but what I can tell you is that only scholars are allowed to do so. And not just “any” scholar, either. It has to be a scholar who has mastered the sciences of the Qur’an, is fluent in Arabic and logic and other things, and then he has to basically get the approval of his teacher. And his teacher had to get approval… and so on. Back to the Companions of Muhammad. And even then, not just any interpretation is acceptable, but it has to agree with other contextual sources. A good example that comes to my mind (unfortunately) is the so-called “wife-beating” verse. Laypeople, especially non-Muslims but some Muslims too, might say that this verse allows or commands a husband to be physically violent with his wife–but that’s actually not the interpretation of scholars!! Oddly enough, though it’s the only interpretation seized upon by those who wish to attack Islam, and even though it’s what the text “seems” to say, it’s actually not what it means. And actual scholars will look at that verse in the context of the hadith and so forth. Because Muhammad’s Companions actually asked him “what does this mean?” So… it’s not like we’re flying blind.
This is in fact quite similar to the Catholic tradition, who reserved the responsibility of actually interpreting the Bible to priests and so forth who were familiar with it and also the related traditions and writings which existed. Not just any random person was allowed to interpret the Bible, right? And what happened when people were allowed to interpret the Bible on their own, you get a bazillion different “protestant” churches each with a different interpretation! So I think you’ll agree it makes much sense that only scholars can “interpret” Qur’an.
Yes, I did leave you hanging, didn’t I!? Sorry about that, but I wanted you to really think about it… because the answer is much less satisfying without an appreciation for the dilemna. When they asked Muhammad which group was correct… he told them that they BOTH were right! And then he said that if a person strives with his knowledge to come to an answer (ijtihad, it’s called) and arrives at the wrong answer, he gets one reward; and the person who strives (ijtihad) to get to an answer and arrives at the right answer gets two rewards. But he didn’t say which of those groups were wrong–he said they were both right.
This point means that there can be two conflicting opinions on an issue which can be simultaneously correct–or at the very least, simultaneously acceptable. They are based on a different procedure of logical reasoning, but they both have proof, so they are both correct. And that’s why there can be different opinions which are both valid.
Again, it is the scholars. There was on scholar who, based on a hadith from Muhammad, said it wasn’t allowed to pay money for a product that didn’t exist. The hadith was talking about fruit which hadn’t ripened–because the fruit might not ripen, right? So a person couldn’t buy the fruit before it existed. The scholar said that this applied to everything… which meant that custom clothing and furniture couldn’t be paid for until after it was finished. This gave a problem to the person who had to make it, who would have needed the money to make it! So the scholar decided that it was too difficult. So basically, he sort of reversed his ruling–it still applied to fruit and animals, but not to clothing and furniture. This was part of his procedure, because the idea that Islam is not supposed to be difficult overcame his ruling about the transaction.
It’s not watering it down, though. And a scholar wouldn’t do that. If a person chooses to, for example, pray only 3 times a day instead of 5, he is watering it down, and he is commiting a sin. If a scholar did the same thing, he would be accused of a sin. But generally scholars don’t do that, and for something to be too difficult is a serious thing, and scholars make that decision, based on a variety of factors (a person’s life or livelihood in jeopardy, eg.)
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Sister_Amy
Guest
It’s also forbidden for a BOY to mix with OTHER GIRLS.
If they are doing commiting illicit activities, both boy and girl should be punished. The punisment isn’t death, by the way.
It is of course, in Islam, a severe injustice to kill someone. And the family had no right to kill the girl, not in Islam. So don’t try to convince the people here otherwise when I know you know better.
Also, the bribery you described isn’t allowed in Islam either. The very fact you even brought it up just shows how utterly corrupt and unIslamic your society is. Maybe you should call them to true Islam!
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Sister_Amy
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Originally Posted by Angelos
(in the Koran all women are considered deceptive because of potiphar’s wife).
He’s telling a lie, and I’m glad you picked up on it.
(in the Koran all women are considered deceptive because of potiphar’s wife).
You’re right, Lapell–what Angelos is telling you doesn’t even make sense. Many women are highly honored in Islam. If in the Qur’an ALL women were considered deceptive, that would even include Mary!! Which of course isn’t the case. Also the daughter of Pharaoh who picked up Moses from the river.
He’s telling a lie, and I’m glad you picked up on it.
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planten
Guest
** If you keep on referring me to any italian (or to Dutch Geert Wilders) then I will refer you to da Vinci. I believe he was a very capable person and he was also Italian. He proved that Jesus was secretly married to Mary Magd and they had a son too. There is a film on the subject and called “da Vinci code.” And a big book on that same name.
So now you have a son of the son of God to look after. What will you do about that?**
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morning_star777
Guest
dear sister amy,if my society is out of islam then arabs are horrible than bangladesh.and many bangladeshi boy or girl doing love marriage.love is not forbidden here.i just told a true story thats it.and 1 think ur QURAN is true islam correct?so how many reference you need?here many fellows gave many reference from ur quran.all verses taught violence&many inhuman laws.but i don’t know why some ppl here trying to edit quran!
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R_not
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I think we need to look at the words here. Now, sister amy tells us that she is going to be married to a guy who already has a first wife. I am sure he is ‘wooing’ her - and so it seems to her she is being ‘honored’. and I am sure there are some who do honor their women - it certainly helps if those women are cowtowed and toeing the line, so to speak.
So, the words ‘many women are honored in islam’ might be correct. The word ‘many’ is the keyword here - because islam does not honor women in its teachings. this is the deception, this is the play on words.
And it doesn’t include Mary because there is no tie between islam and either Christianity or Judaism - it is all in their minds this supposed connection. We already went over this that mohammed was a pagan and islam/allah is of his pagan religion with some Bible stories included because he wanted to convert the Jews and Christians of his time - and they didn’t go for it, hence the conversion of the sword that then took place.
It is like talking on a revolving wheel with this sister amy.
It is the same logic that other muslims use - basically illogic. If a ‘moderate’ muslim IS a true moderate - how can they follow such a nasty individual such as mohammed?!?
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morning_star777
Guest
dear planten i also read the da vinci code.but dan brown couldn’t prove that jesus secretly married.anyway if he proved then why he can’t show us his so called HOLY GRAIL?ask him to give us the address of his so called HOLY GRAIL.we will try to find it.and he also should give the address of jesus’ successors.is it sophie nevou?if yes then where is she?we want to see the heroin of da vinci code in reality.
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planten
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Angelos, that post was not for you. It was for R_not. So please do not read my post. But read the post of R_not first to see why I wrote what I did. Thanks. I have no problem with Jesus or his mother. None at all.
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R_not
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I think I have to expand my list of definitions that muslims have different meanings to than our own meanings.
here is the expanded list to include their definition of ‘honor’:
muslim definitions for words:
peace - death, conversion or subjugation (dhimmittude) for infidels
**peace treaty **- can only last for 10 years and is to be broken at anytime when the muslims are rearmed/regrouped
aggressor - only infidels are aggressors. Any actions (violent) by muslims is their right per the koran
oppressor - only infidels are oppressors if they do not allow themselves to be subjugated by muslims/sharia law
(modern day) Crusader - Christians who figured out what islam is all about and are telling others the facts of islam
honor - following the koran’s teaching on this - and if it includes beating, raping, stoning, hanging, enslavement, - that is ok - it is what the koran says to do and it is considered an honor for women to endure these actions.
here is the expanded list to include their definition of ‘honor’:
muslim definitions for words:
peace - death, conversion or subjugation (dhimmittude) for infidels
**peace treaty **- can only last for 10 years and is to be broken at anytime when the muslims are rearmed/regrouped
aggressor - only infidels are aggressors. Any actions (violent) by muslims is their right per the koran
oppressor - only infidels are oppressors if they do not allow themselves to be subjugated by muslims/sharia law
(modern day) Crusader - Christians who figured out what islam is all about and are telling others the facts of islam
honor - following the koran’s teaching on this - and if it includes beating, raping, stoning, hanging, enslavement, - that is ok - it is what the koran says to do and it is considered an honor for women to endure these actions.
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planten
Guest
**I am not trying to prove anything. I was referring R_not to da vinci code. In that book (and film) it is shown that Jesus was married to Mary magd. Right or wrong, that was hundreds of years ago.
Recently a burial place has been found. That belonged to Jesus family. There were ten bodies in stone caskets and one of them was marked as the son of Jesus. This is a very recent news.
All that was only for R-not. Not for you please. So forget it.**
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R_not
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he didn’t prove anything. It is just a story by secularists to bash Christians. And I suppose you like that - which is fine.
Da Vinci was an artist who painted a picture. I didn’t even watch the movie - and don’t take my history from hollywood, or muslims.
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inJESUS
Guest
maybe those people were following that hadith which says Muslims should kill muslim unbelievers at the end of time (forgot where i read that) or maybe following this example from Muslim:dear sister amy,if my society is out of islam then arabs are horrible than bangladesh.and many bangladeshi boy or girl doing love marriage.love is not forbidden here.i just told a true story thats it.and 1 think ur QURAN is true islam correct?so how many reference you need?here many fellows gave many reference from ur quran.all verses taught violence&many inhuman laws.but i don’t know why some ppl here trying to edit quran!
By Allah, I would definitely fight against him who severed prayer from Zakat, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even to secure the cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to the Messenger of Allah (as zakat) but now they have withheld it. Umar b. Khattab remarked: By Allah, I found nothing but the fact that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr for (perceiving the justification of) fighting (against those who refused to pay Zakat) and I fully recognized that the (stand of Abu Bakr) was right.
they were fightin , in this case, against a girl who broke out a commandmant of not mixing with boys but ended up killing her…
everything is possible in light of what is found in those peaceful ahadith.
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R_not
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This is a forum for everyone. If others want to contribute - they are more than welcome.
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Sister_Amy
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Catholics have hijacked my religion.
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inJESUS
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Found it…it is Bukhari
No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.”
Maybe these people were thinking they will get an extra bonus for killing their daughter who embarrased them and their religion:shrug:
No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.”
Maybe these people were thinking they will get an extra bonus for killing their daughter who embarrased them and their religion:shrug:
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morning_star777
Guest
yes brother inJESUS you are correct.when i was a muslim and in childhood i was a religious muslim.but i didn’t wanted to be fanatic so my father often called me as kafir;yehudi(jew)&nazarah(christian).now thanks lord jesus i really became christian.i am gratefull to holy lord jesus that he showed me the true way at last.
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morning_star777
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congratulations my brother inJESUS
.you gave another reference.but i think our muslims fellows will edit the hadith in their own way.
.you gave another reference.but i think our muslims fellows will edit the hadith in their own way.
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R_not
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You are on a Catholic forum and think that your trying to convert us to something that is not even considered a religion by some or find it lacking by others, or just wrong by some - I think that your statement leaves a lot to be desired.
Why do you feel that it has been hijacked? If we hijacked it - you would know because #1. you wouldn’t be marrying a married man, #2. a lot of imams, clerics - or whatever you call them - would be kicked out of the USA, or at the very least demoted. And lastly and not least - muslim’s definitions for words would come more into line with the sane people’s of this world.
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