Honoring my future Roman Catholic in-laws

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I think the best way you can honor your future Roman Catholic in-laws, and your future wife is to have a serious talk with the local Bishop before you pursue your wedding ceremony any further. Get his blessing, that’s the absolute best thing you can do!
 
No, we have not agreed to raise our children Roman Catholic, and though I believe the RCC is filled with millions of wonderful, faithful, charitable Christians, I am not inclined to.
Nhylan - we aren’t arguing with you religious views - just trying to make you understand some things that could be a problem for you later on.
  1. Your wife as a baptized Catholic has a duty to be married in the Church unless she formally leaves the Church.
  2. Your wife can only get a dispensation for mixed-faith marriage from the Bishop if you agree to raise the children Catholic as that is also her duty as a Roman Catholic.
  3. Lack of both of these things make your marriage invalid and leave it open to annullment later on her end.
Also she will not be in communion with the Church by taking part in an invalid marriage which does the following things:
  1. Does not allow her to be a godparent
  2. Does not allow her to take Eucharist
  3. Does not allow full confession as the only way not to continue sinning is to either convalidate or live as brother and sister.
She has really only three choices here in marrying you:
  1. Get full dispensations on all matters (which you already stated you would not do)
  2. Marry in the Church and get a dispensation on a mixed marriage (but you already said you would not raise the children in Catholicism)
  3. Formally leave the Roman Catholic Church by sending letter to the Bishop
I am sorrry but entering into an invalid marriage is an offense against chastity and falls under adultery.
 
Oy, there is a bit of stickyness here then. So basically, she plans to become Episcopalian, right? She’s going to go to services with you on Sundays and you’ll raise your kids Episcopal. Basically, she’s converting if I understand you right.

This gets tricky and hard to understand. Especially if people try to explain it with a sledgehammer. Catholicism tries very hard to establish structures to guide the flock. It makes the administration simple and legally just, but doesn’t always come off in the most pastorally sensitive manner.

My understanding is that a catholic, sacramental marriage is not just about two people in love, but about their mutual relationship with God and their openness to a family. This is more than unredeemed humanity is fully capable of. It requires Grace to both survive and flourish. Because the Catholic Church recognizes herself as THE church Jesus established and gave the Great Commission to, she makes pretty tough demands on her flock. Keeping this multifaceted mission of marriage in mind, the catholic church requires her members to either marry in the catholic church or receive the permission of the bishop to marry outside. That permission is usually contingent upon the promise to raise children in the catholic faith. No promise, no permission. Seems dictatorial until you really see the above from the catholic perspective. We take sacraments and grace VERY seriously and take obedience to Jesus even moreso.

I’m not up to date on all the specifics, but if you just blow off the above and go forward with some ill defined blessing from a local priest that lacks the authority of the bishop, then in the eyes of the catholic church your marriage is NOT a sacramental marriage. Maybe you don’t care, why would you (personally)? Does she? Perhaps not if she plans to functionally leave the church anyways (go to church with you, raise the kids Episcopal). Or perhaps it won’t be until later that it will cause her sleepless nights regretting the fact that her marriage lacks the Grace of the Sacrament of Matrimony. The ugly practical side is that Church law essentially considers this decision a manifestation of immature faith at the time of the marriage and if she divorces you someday would be grounds for an immediate annullment. Not a nice thing to have in the back of your mind. (unless you are Henry the VIII! Sorry, couldn’t help the quick friendly dig!)

It used to be that there was a way forward here that respected all, though it doesn’t seem so at first blush. Bear with me. That way was that the catholic one would formally (usually on paper) renounce their catholic faith in favor of converting to something protestant. Strangely enough, that action makes the Catholic Church actually recognize the marriage as a sacramental marriage of two protestant christians and the “defect of form” annullment option would not be open to you in the future. The reason is that she would be being consistent. She is not ignoring the catholic requirements of marriage out of immaturity, she is doing so out of principled belief, which includes making the formal statement of disbelief in the catholic church. The Church respects that consistency and since she is no longer catholic at that point she is free to marry you both naturally and sacramentally. But it sure ratchets up the tension with the family, eh? On the other hand, that tension is an honest one, not just a window dressing to sooth their feelings. She’d actually be declaring what she intends. That’s not all bad, if hard.

I’m not sure that option is current anymore, but the priest would know. Be sure to make it clear that you don’t want a quickie pass, you want to do it right to ensure that your marriage meets the criteria the catholic church has discerned are needed for a sacramental marriage, even though you don’t intend to be catholic. Ironic that it requires a formal defection for the marriage to be sacramental, but that’s just where the logic takes you.
 
No, we have not agreed to raise our children Roman Catholic, and though I believe the RCC is filled with millions of wonderful, faithful, charitable Christians, I am not inclined to.
Hi, there.

The dispensation that others have noted should not be difficult for your fiancee to receive, but it is very important.

Simply check with your Catholic diocese. The process gives a Catholic priest official sanction to attend your wedding–he cannot do so otherwise. Without the dispensation your fiancee also falls out of communion with the Catholic Church, which is probably not what she’d be included to do.

Congratulations on your wedding! I’ve in the midst of planning one myself–and had to impress my new in-laws, too. 🙂
 
…if you just blow off the above and go forward with some ill defined blessing from a local priest that lacks the authority of the bishop, then in the eyes of the catholic church your marriage is NOT a sacramental marriage. …
It is much more serious than that - it is an INVALID marriage. Just making this point crystal clear because it does make a difference. A marriage can be valid and not sacramental, in this case it would not even be valid.

~Liza
 
Please do a search on the forum for “convalidation” of someone does not respond. I do apologize but I can’t get to it today to get you a source for more info. I’m supposed to be working.
Sorry convalidation is basically when the Church instills the Sacrament of marriage upon and existing marriage that was done outside the Church (another church or a JP) in order to bring the bride and groom back into communion (or in your case just the bride) with the Church. The reason being is that Marriage is not just a ceremony it is sacramental. Sacramental meaning Christ is there - binding the bride and groom. Hard to understand if not well catechized but it is there. I will find you the actual writing in a moment. This sacrament can only be done by those with ordination in an apostolic succession. That means Jesus passed the ability to the 12 disciples who passed the ability to first Simon and Stephen and so on and so forth. That is why Roman Catholics can take Eucharist in some Churches like Byzantine or Greek Orthodox but not others such as Anglican. Without that sacrament the Church does not recognize your wife as married because by our beliefs God was not there as someone had a duty to do one thing and snubbed God’s instructions over 2000 years.

Here is the sacramental description of marriage:
II. THE CELEBRATION OF MARRIAGE
1621 In the Latin Rite the celebration of marriage between two Catholic faithful normally takes place during Holy Mass, because of the connection of all the sacraments with the Paschal mystery of Christ.120 In the Eucharist the memorial of the New Covenant is realized, the New Covenant in which Christ has united himself for ever to the Church, his beloved bride for whom he gave himself up.121 It is therefore fitting that the spouses should seal their consent to give themselves to each other through the offering of their own lives by uniting it to the offering of Christ for his Church made present in the Eucharistic sacrifice, and by receiving the Eucharist so that, communicating in the same Body and the same Blood of Christ, they may form but “one body” in Christ.122
1622 "Inasmuch as it is a sacramental action of sanctification, the liturgical celebration of marriage . . . must be, per se, valid, worthy, and fruitful."123 It is therefore appropriate for the bride and groom to prepare themselves for the celebration of their marriage by receiving the sacrament of penance.
1623 According to Latin tradition, the spouses, as ministers of Christ’s grace, mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the tradition of the Eastern churches, the priests (bishops or presbyters) are witnesses to the mutual consent of the spouses,NT1 but for the validity of the sacrament their blessing is also necessary.NT2
1624 The various liturgies abound in prayers of blessing and epiclesis asking God’s grace and blessing on the new couple, especially the bride. In the epiclesis of this sacrament the spouses receive the Holy Spirit as the communion of love of Christ and the Church.124 The Holy Spirit is the seal of their covenant, the ever available source of their love and the strength to renew their fidelity
 
It is much more serious than that - it is an INVALID marriage. Just making this point crystal clear because it does make a difference. A marriage can be valid and not sacramental, in this case it would not even be valid.

~Liza
Technically correct, but a meaningless distinction to the fellow we are speaking to. Remember, he doesn’t recognize the church’s authority in ANY of these matters so try to keep it at a level that is free of specifically catholic theological lingo and be careful of tone. He obviously wants to do the right thing, give him help - not intimidation.
 
Technically correct, but a meaningless distinction to the fellow we are speaking to. Remember, he doesn’t recognize the church’s authority in ANY of these matters so try to keep it at a level that is free of specifically catholic theological lingo and be careful of tone. He obviously wants to do the right thing, give him help - not intimidation.
He said “he’s not worried” about the marriage being valid. And words mean things - I am not about to talk down to an intelligent adult and use baby words so he can understand. This is the time where he’s going to have to take the words we are giving him and LEARN a bit. I’m giving him the information he needs to take it a step further and research what he needs to know to make this right. If I don’t use proper verbiage all it does is confuse further.

I am not intimidating anyone - I am giving him the facts. If he is intimidated by the facts then he has other issues.

~Liza
 
Manualman, thank you for your incredibly clear and understanding posting. That is an interesting idea.

So how would we make this at least a valid wedding in the RCC? Or can a marriage only be both valid and a sacrament?
 
Words do indeed mean something but as manualman said (essentially) different people ascribe different meaning to them in cases like this. Essentially manuakman is correct I do not recognize the RCC’s authority I these matters, I’m tying to do right by everyone involved in our families and faiths
When I said I wasnt “worried” about the validity I was trying to subtly steer the conversation away from that idea. I apologize I it alarmed anyone.
 
Manualman, thank you for your incredibly clear and understanding posting. That is an interesting idea.

So how would we make this at least a valid wedding in the RCC? Or can a marriage only be both valid and a sacrament?
If your future wife plans to remain Catholic then she must do one of two things in order to remain a Catholic in good standing and be able to recieve all the other Sacraments (Eucharist, Confession, Extreme Unction).
  1. Marry you in the Catholic Church.
  2. Recieve a dispensation from the Bishop of her diocese to marry in a non-Catholic ceremony. I would contact the Bishop’s office for more information about what is needed to obtain this.
If she does one of these two things then your marriage is both a Sacrament and Valid.
👍
 
Liza, would you care what an Iranian imam thought about the validity or sacramentality of your marriage? I didn’t think so. I’m not dumbing anything down, I’m focusing on what he recognizes and what he values rather than what he doesn’t. There’s no traction in that direction, even if it is true. His motivation is for the sake of his wife and her family.

nhylan, Talk to her family priest about it. I’m on my tiptoes with just my nose above water here. He deals with this stuff every day. Like I said before, make it clear that you want to proceed in whatever way you can to make this a valid (there you go Liza) marriage not subject to any future “defect of form” objection. Even if he’s a dissident leftie, I doubt he’ll just make something up. Priests genuinely want to help people, so even if he personally has given up on canon law it is unlikely he’ll refuse somebody who WANTS to abide by it. Print out my advice if you like and ask him about it. Be warned that I’m nobody though! Just someone who has seen too many broken marriages around him (not mine thanks be to God!). God bless and keep praying.
 
Manualman, thank you for your incredibly clear and understanding posting. That is an interesting idea.

So how would we make this at least a valid wedding in the RCC? Or can a marriage only be both valid and a sacrament?
I do apologize if I was a little overzealous - I just oculd not believe a priest would not have explained this.

If you apply for the dispensation to marry in another Church or you marry in an RC Church it will be both valid and sacramental. The big thing you will need to do is the Pre-CANA which is the pre-marriage counseling where a lot of this gets covered and includes the FOCUS testing.

Sorry, the FOCUS testing is actually not a test it is a tool - and my dh and I got a lot out of it. It was developed by clergy, phsychologists, doctors, and lawyers. BTW- you and her answer a bunch of questions and it brings conversation pooints up on where you agree and disagree on points so they can be discussed out. There is even a section for mixed faith couples.
 
joandarc,

Do I remember incorrectly that the dispensation is only granted if the catholic spouse promises to do her best to raise the kids catholic? I thought that was a stipulation that was a problem here.

That’s why I thought the only option left was the ‘nuclear’ one where she formally defects from catholicism (which it seems she functionally intends to do anyways).
 
Manualman, thank you for your incredibly clear and understanding posting. That is an interesting idea.

So how would we make this at least a valid wedding in the RCC? Or can a marriage only be both valid and a sacrament?
She would need to renounce the Catholic Faith. That is the only way as you are not wiling to raise your children in the true Faith and so you do not qualify for a dispensation.
 
Nyhan, welcome to the forums. I really am amazed at how quickly a thread like this can go from “zero to crazy.” I hope this doesn’t turn you off from Catholicism.

I want to make a few points:
  1. Catholics are required to marry according to the Church’s laws. Your fiance is Catholic, therefore she is bound by those requirements. Normally, this requires the ceremony to take place in a Catholic Church, but a dispensation can be received for this requirement (such as allowing the ceremony in the non-Catholic party’s church). Normally, the paperwork is handled by the Catholic’s pastor. If her pastor is witnessing and participating in the ceremony it seems very likely that he has/will secure the necessary dispensations. Are the two of you participating in some other type of Catholic premarital preparation (engaged encounter retreat, pre-cana session, etc.)? If so, that is another very good indication that she is doing what she is required to do in order to have a marriage that will be recognized as valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
  2. As part of receiving permission to marry outside the Church, your fiance will need to promise that she intends to continue the practice of her Catholic faith. It seems like she is serious about her faith and that this would be her sincere intention. Another poster suggestsed that your fiance is “effectively converting” or joining your Church. I do not see anything in your post that suggests this is the case.
  3. The issue of how to raise your kids is a serious one, and you should discuss with each other, and possibly with her pastor as well. Your finance will have to promise to do all she can to ensure that any children you two may have will be baptized and raised as Catholics. You are not required to make such a promise, but you should be aware of what her obligations are.
A lot of people here at CAF treat this as an absolute requirement, and suggest that if the non-Catholic party has not agreed to raise the children Catholic this somehow invalidates the marriage. This is pretty far removed from how most priests I know approach the issue, and also differs from the emphasis in Vatican documents such as the “Principles and Norms on Ecumensim” (see link below) which notes that the non Catholic parent “may feel a like obligation because of hisher own Christian commitment” and emphasizes “respect for the religious freedom and conscience of the non-Catholic parent” in the approach to this requirement. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_25031993_principles-and-norms-on-ecumenism_en.html

Best wishes and prayers for you and your fiancee.
 
So essentially, Thomas, she wouldn’t be violating her promise if we raised them Episcopalian because of my “like obligation because of his her own Christian commitment?” This is important to me because like someone said earlier, I don’t want her to wake up one morning and feel guilty about it.

She is essentially leaving her church for mine yes, I’m sorry that wasn’t more obvious, I think I only mentioned it once. We will be worshiping at my church. Dispite this we still feel its important for her family’s sake that this all be kosher with the RCC (ie. can be a godparent)
 
She is essentially leaving her church for mine yes, I’m sorry that wasn’t more obvious, I think I only mentioned it once. We will be worshiping at my church. Dispite this we still feel its important for her family’s sake that this all be kosher with the RCC (ie. can be a godparent)
Well, from a Catholic perspective this is a big deal and not good. I’m not sure there’s a way to do what you seem to want to do (i.e. have her leave the Church but still be in good standing with the Church.) Do you see the logical contridiction there?

Lots and lots of questions. . .have you actually spoken to her priest about his role in the ceremony or are you just assuming he will go along with this? Does he know that she is effectively leaving the Catholic Church to join your church?

Is she just doing all this to please her family (trying to keep some Catholic element in the wedding ceremony) or does it matter to her?
This is important to me because like someone said earlier, I don’t want her to wake up one morning and feel guilty about it.
If you go forward with a marriage that will not be recognized by her Church, there is a very serious risk that this will happen.
 
I see your point and I do see the contradiction.

We are largely doing this for her parents. Hence, the name of the thread. 😃
 
I see your point and I do see the contradiction.

We are largely doing this for her parents. Hence, the name of the thread. 😃
While it is nice and noble to do this, you need to consider the implications of which I am quite sure you are now aware. You are setting yourself up for a future of pain if you mislead your in-laws into thinking that she is going to remain in any way a Catholic. It is not possible to be “sort of” Catholic. Either she is - or she isn’t. This means - when she attends Mass with them she will no longer be allowed to receive Holy Communion. Does she realize what she is about to give up? She will not be a Catholic any more, and will be unable to present herself as one. How is that going to sit with your in-laws after you put on appearances at the wedding that she will somehow keep her “Catholic-ness”?

You have to spend the rest of your lives with the decisions you make right now. And while it is a very thoughtful thing to do for your in-laws, it is really quite disingenuous to make it appear that she will remain a Catholic when in fact she never will be one again.

~Liza
 
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