B
- Status
T
TrueLight
Guest
BlackCatholics,
Thanks for the links. I know forms of worship in Africa vary and the Catholic Church is fine with that.
By the way, have you seen this video of the FSSP in Africa?
You can have a variety of ways of having mass even in Africa.
My question is what do you see as unique in African-American Catholicism and do you have any videos of African-American masses that are different from any other masses?
I’m curious.
Thanks for the links. I know forms of worship in Africa vary and the Catholic Church is fine with that.
By the way, have you seen this video of the FSSP in Africa?
You can have a variety of ways of having mass even in Africa.
My question is what do you see as unique in African-American Catholicism and do you have any videos of African-American masses that are different from any other masses?
I’m curious.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, a Latin-Mass institute on perfect terms with Rome and which I like EVEN better than the FSSP, also has an African mission.
So do the Eastern Orthodox, but their dancing during the aisle on the way to Communion just looks a bit inorganic and goofy. If you want more of a praise and dance environment than a solemn chant-and-incense one but still developing organically within an ultra-high liturgical context, the Melkites and Ethiopians look the most authentic.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Have any links?The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, a Latin-Mass institute on perfect terms with Rome and which I like EVEN better than the FSSP, also has an African mission.
So do the Eastern Orthodox, but their dancing during the aisle on the way to Communion just looks a bit inorganic and goofy. If you want more of a praise and dance environment than a solemn chant-and-incense one but still developing organically within an ultra-high liturgical context, the Melkites and Ethiopians look the most authentic.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
Regarding the Institute of Christ the King, I was thinking of their (physical) brochure. The pictures, of a priest in full vestments baptizing a baby, were really beautiful. Those pictures don’t seem to be on their website, but here it is:Have any links?
institute-christ-king.org/institute/africa-missions/
Regarding the Eastern Orthodox mission, here it is:
johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/how-our-orthodox-brethren-in-zambia.html
B
BlackCatholics
Guest
GRACE PEACE AND MERCY TO YOU TRUE LIGHT. THANK FOR THE FSSP link.
I shall have to look for some Black Catholic mass posts (St. Theresa of Avila near Washington used to be up, but I’ll check or I’ll post. You might try the nbcc.org Tenth Congress Media Center nbccongress.org/congress-x/default.asp
nbccongress.org/media/default.asp
…where there were some glorious masses/liturgies 10 or so bishops participating, if memory serves.
Another National Black Catholic Congress XI is upcoming July 19-22, 2012 Indianapolis, IN. You know the only real differences (as you will see if I can find them) is the mass is NOT locked into 55 minutes. At St. Brigid, Los Angeles, as well as other Black catholic Churches, 1 1/2 to 2 hour plus liturgies are not uncommon.
Before the Kyries, we remember those passed (who have gone home, our various deceased bishops, priests, parishioners SAINTS by name,and invite them to pray with us.http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgSQMQulZ2g7jSaUv98-CZjAo6I4R6zEY54s9m9yS4Zk8XOG1k
Our songs, hymns can range from Catholic hymns,Black spirituals, but also include Kirk Franklin, Fred Hammond (Black Gospel artists) all tied, however to the readings, the homily, the mass itself (e.g., Christ the King, or Corpus Christi “days” might have hymns songs, gospel tunes reflecting those).http://www.angelfire.com/realm/blackcatholics/images/RussianBlackMadonna.jpg
As further indicated, entrances usually begin with “speaking drums” and other percussion instruments leading the procession, the drummers bring it in, followed by the Crucifix, the lectors, the WORD, sometimes, smoke offering with liturgical dancers, the priest celebrant and the others. Sometimes the Gospel Choir might be included.
…the Pater Noster (Our Father) in many black Catholic Churches includes everyone holding hands–even across the aisles-- and lifting up (“For Thine Is the kingdom, power and glory”)… http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_stBHYIft036MKPIdVG-bhHVct-pZ9VsGYXaDfYhp_mIeWrnN0A
The “sign of peace” may include everyone being greeted in various parts of the church, with the priest and deacon, even coming down into the congregation.
We (Black Catholic Churches) were amongst the first churches to have female altar servers (and why not, females most assuredly served Yeshua, Our Lord and the apostles at the last supper and other meals). the most important part of the mass–the consecration/transubstantiation remains the same, however, in such as our Cathedral of Our Lady (Archdiocesan Cathedral of Los Angeles) I have seen IT SUNG! Absolutely beautiful!
Before dismissal, we have the introduction of the guests (which couldinclude folks from Nigeria, England, Spain,Chicago wherever).
I’ll see if I can’t find and posts a few liturgies.
Pax Christi
T
TrueLight
Guest
Wow.
Your description includes lots of elements some CAF members would call liturgical abuse lol.
I’m not sure, but it’s almost as if when you say “Black Catholics”, you’re almost referring to a new form or rite? Is that correct?
To me it is just another mass in the ordinary form but with Black American cultural elements.
I found some links:
Black History Mass
St Sabrina Worship
T
TrueLight
Guest
What do you like about the Institute of Christ the Kiing as opposed to the FSSP?The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, a Latin-Mass institute on perfect terms with Rome and which I like EVEN better than the FSSP, also has an African mission.
So do the Eastern Orthodox, but their dancing during the aisle on the way to Communion just looks a bit inorganic and goofy. If you want more of a praise and dance environment than a solemn chant-and-incense one but still developing organically within an ultra-high liturgical context, the Melkites and Ethiopians look the most authentic.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
Specific priests I’ve known, and the magnificent oratories they have access to - their Old St. Patrick’s Oratory in Kansas City and St. Francis de Sales Oratory in St. Louis are stunning historic old buildings.
I’m trying to remember the slight liturgical variations between the FSSP and the Institute. It’s been a while since I’ve been regularly to a Latin Mass because I’m Byzantine-rite. I think it was the Institute that says the Last Gospel out loud, which I prefer (the Gospel, even when prayed in Latin ad orientem, should be prayed with and heard by the congregation, I think). The Institute is also a bit more “high-church” regarding the way in which the acolytes kiss the priest’s hand, and there might have been another difference as well regarding when the priest vests during High Mass. It’s been a while; I just remember really loving the Institute whenever I saw them.
I like the FSSP too.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
There’s a parish in Kansas City with both an Anglican Use Mass and a “Gospel Mass”. I really don’t mind the Black American cultural elements in an overwhelmingly black parish. It looks real, looks authentic. It looks fake when white parishes try to do it and only do a half-*** job of it. For the European-American culture, it’s just not the way we worship.
T
TrueLight
Guest
See that’s what I don’t agree with. Some customs may have started in one culture, but people mix and learn from one another. I don’t agree that if you have one sort of ancestry, that you should stick to one style of worship. Look at this Pentecostal service.
It looks like most of the folks are of European ancestry.
Someone might ask why I a black woman, attend the TLM, which is more of a Euro style of worship. Why not stick to my roots? Maybe I am being fake and trying to be European?
See what I mean?
C
Cecilianus
Guest
Yes, I see what you mean. And as a former Protestant with no Catholic ethnic upbringing (I am a quarter Italian, but I was raised a Swedish Lutheran), I really understand it. I ended up choosing the Greek rite of the Church which to some people looks like I’m trying to “fake” being Slavic, but it’s as authentic as me trying to “fake” being Irish. When you become Catholic, you adopt an ethnic heritage.
However, most of these ethnic heritages - Western European, Slavic, Melkite, etc. - have at least a millennium-old tradition in the Church. The African-American cultural experience does not. They inherit it through their culture, but we do not, and we do not inherit it as part of the heritage of the Church. My fear is that we may are (a) experimenting with the Liturgy rather than receiving an inherited Tradition, and (b) abandoning our Catholic heritage for a Protestant culture, and with it the horizontalization and irreverence of “hooting, hollering, and whistling in Church”.
T
TrueLight
Guest
I agree.
The “Black Catholic” services I linked to appear very Protestant to me aside from the vestments. I think the black gospel heritage is awesome, but I can get that in a Protestant church, whether that particular type of worship is in a mostly European, African or other type of ancestry church.
B
BlackCatholics
Guest
What you posted praise dancers is typical (Andyou can see why our masses are not restricgted to e.g., 55 minutes in worshipping the Lord!. Here’s a midnight mass excerpt youtube.com/watch?v=peVv0SxoD2k&NR=1
(The former deceased pastor I mentioned, Fr. Fernando Aritzi painted the Black Christ icon there at St. Sabina, which was featured in the film “Waiting To Exhale”.
If one notices in the praise dance, the WORD (Lectionary) is what is featured. I noticed some of the comments under the video by the Seig Heil, lock step, so-called faithful.(Wait till they get a load of the Papua New Guinea and Pacific Rim types of liturgies, worship. Oh well, here’s one of the tamer posts: youtube.com/watch?v=ArvkwvQqqGA Bishop William Fey Ordination - Part 1 (Againt he Church is the Church of many tribes. Yeshua planned it that way).
Sadly these Eurocentric do not know the world has passed them by, and while the Church sadly declines in Europe, the African Diaspora again grows by leaps and bounds. Thanks and blessings for the link. Oh here’s one more element St. Brigid at Easter praise dancers. youtube.com/watch?v=8m11x3OKcSc
One must have a background, however. Most of these are New Orleans- heritaged. Both dress and hats (and fans–which have a language all heir own) and movements reflect that. Rev. Frank presiding (just elected # three in the Josephite order (SSJ), which mission is to minister to Black Catholics. Still looking for the Speaking Drums, “processional/entrance antiphons” for ya.
Pax Christi
M
MissRose73
Guest
Hooting, hollering, and whistling have no place in church.
Clapping in appreciation of a choir’s performance after Communion if they have done an exceptionally beautiful piece of music is okay (like a classical sacred piece or chant) only if they take a bow or similar action after singing. Clapping is okay after a baptism is done or after a group of confirmandi have been confirmed as a few examples only when the celebrant gives his okay for there to be applause.
I understand each culture is different when it comes to showing appreciation but certain ways of doing so belong at a party, the bar or a concert not Mass. We are there to celebrate in a different way, and most secular ways of celebrating do not belong in the context of Mass but outside of it.
I do remember going to an EF Mass, and amazed at how quiet it was before, during, and after. I wish there was one more closer to my hometown that is approved by a diocese. I felt more reverent and wished more of the behaviors would cross back into the OF.
Clapping in appreciation of a choir’s performance after Communion if they have done an exceptionally beautiful piece of music is okay (like a classical sacred piece or chant) only if they take a bow or similar action after singing. Clapping is okay after a baptism is done or after a group of confirmandi have been confirmed as a few examples only when the celebrant gives his okay for there to be applause.
I understand each culture is different when it comes to showing appreciation but certain ways of doing so belong at a party, the bar or a concert not Mass. We are there to celebrate in a different way, and most secular ways of celebrating do not belong in the context of Mass but outside of it.
I do remember going to an EF Mass, and amazed at how quiet it was before, during, and after. I wish there was one more closer to my hometown that is approved by a diocese. I felt more reverent and wished more of the behaviors would cross back into the OF.
S
SteveGC
Guest
I agree with most of your post, MissRose. Except this part. For some reason, I am very opposed to this all-too-common practice. For two reasons. One, the choir can be shown appreciation in other ways after Mass. And two, because it comes at the end of Mass, it results in sort of a end-of-the-show feel…ie. Mass is over, now let’s clap. I don’t know. I just get uneasy when it happens. We have very good music and singing at my parish, and some of the recessionals are very impactful. But I still resist clapping, because it seems to make the whole thing a performance.
Peace.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
The Latin Mass does not need your diocese’s permission. That was the perception for many years when parishes would seek an “indult” from the bishop for the Mass, but Pope Benedict affirmed in his motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum” that any priest who knows how has always been permitted to say the Latin Mass without seeking any sort of special permission.
M
MissRose73
Guest
I just wished my diocese would have a Latin Mass available unless not many have requested it to make it an option at one parish. The closest options for me are about 1 to 2 hours drives from me. The other options that are local to me are not sanctioned (either SSPX or Independent).
I am well aware that the faithful can ask their priests for the Latin Mass. After having experienced it for the first time, I would like to attend it more often.
I am well aware that the faithful can ask their priests for the Latin Mass. After having experienced it for the first time, I would like to attend it more often.
I
idifacs_john
Guest
I too have the same problem in my town, I am Catholic, I have two churches I go to in town depending on what service me and my mother want to go, either morning or evening.
And we see the same thing every Sunday, the congregation before mass is unaware of being in a place of worship, but treat the church as a social gathering hall instead, we find it hard to pray / concentrate, because of all the chatter before mass, or we are listening to some elderly couple behind use or next to use talk about their recent surgery. I have to watch my mother closely because she is old school and wont hesitate to turn around before or during mass and give someone the evil eye for talking to loud or for laughing.
Then at our other church we attend in the evening if we dont go to the morning mass, there are two choirs that alternate, one is very prestine/ professional, and makes you feel like you are at a real symphony concert and the singers are the best i have ever heard, then there is the second choir ( which I call the crazy choir ) they are titled as the contemporary choir , and they are so unprofessional, they chat amongst themselves during mass, and before mass the guitar player will strum out what ever tune is in his head while not practicing, or someone will start playing away on the drums, and they act as if they are some rock band before a big show, and they do the same after mass, as soon as the priest leaves, sometimes they play a drum or guitar solo, and it is a shame and an embaressment an me an my mom always make sure to leave promptly after the priest leaves the church.
Not to mention as others have also, the congregation with or without prompting from the priest will applause the choir after mass,
but here is the real kicker, CELL PHONES,
How rude, inconciderate, an disrespectful people are !! during the blessing of the sacrements on more than one occasion has someone cell phone been heard ringing, and not just ringing but echoing through out the entire church, and they let it go, or are digging in their purse to turn it off, or pretend no one hears them.
And we here who are complaining are unfortunately reaching no one, for the ones we are complaining about lol are not in here !
And last an i am bit sympathetic about, is people who smell offensive, i cant really be mad at people who have b.o. but i have to say it can be distracting.
I come to church not only worship and pray, but to relax and unwind while i am there, church for me is a place of solitude where my problems cease and I am free and in peace for one hour.
and so it is very distracting and upsetting when others do not consider that while they are having fun gossiping before mass and yucking it up after mass and doing all this hooting and what not with roudy choir people, there are those of us who have come for a purpose.
and for those wondering, i am only 33 yrs old
And we see the same thing every Sunday, the congregation before mass is unaware of being in a place of worship, but treat the church as a social gathering hall instead, we find it hard to pray / concentrate, because of all the chatter before mass, or we are listening to some elderly couple behind use or next to use talk about their recent surgery. I have to watch my mother closely because she is old school and wont hesitate to turn around before or during mass and give someone the evil eye for talking to loud or for laughing.
Then at our other church we attend in the evening if we dont go to the morning mass, there are two choirs that alternate, one is very prestine/ professional, and makes you feel like you are at a real symphony concert and the singers are the best i have ever heard, then there is the second choir ( which I call the crazy choir ) they are titled as the contemporary choir , and they are so unprofessional, they chat amongst themselves during mass, and before mass the guitar player will strum out what ever tune is in his head while not practicing, or someone will start playing away on the drums, and they act as if they are some rock band before a big show, and they do the same after mass, as soon as the priest leaves, sometimes they play a drum or guitar solo, and it is a shame and an embaressment an me an my mom always make sure to leave promptly after the priest leaves the church.
Not to mention as others have also, the congregation with or without prompting from the priest will applause the choir after mass,
but here is the real kicker, CELL PHONES,
How rude, inconciderate, an disrespectful people are !! during the blessing of the sacrements on more than one occasion has someone cell phone been heard ringing, and not just ringing but echoing through out the entire church, and they let it go, or are digging in their purse to turn it off, or pretend no one hears them.
And we here who are complaining are unfortunately reaching no one, for the ones we are complaining about lol are not in here !
And last an i am bit sympathetic about, is people who smell offensive, i cant really be mad at people who have b.o. but i have to say it can be distracting.
I come to church not only worship and pray, but to relax and unwind while i am there, church for me is a place of solitude where my problems cease and I am free and in peace for one hour.
and so it is very distracting and upsetting when others do not consider that while they are having fun gossiping before mass and yucking it up after mass and doing all this hooting and what not with roudy choir people, there are those of us who have come for a purpose.
and for those wondering, i am only 33 yrs old
C
Cecilianus
Guest
I quit going to Mass at the Benedictine abbey at college because (among many other reasons) it was too distracting to listen to all the nuns’ cell phones going off during Mass.
(In case you’re wondering, I don’t know what the nuns were doing there because the abbey is for monks - the nuns live across town.)
And also for those who are wondering, I am only 22 years old.
It also like to pray in silence and relax and rest, in the true classical meaning of the term - I want to “be still and know that He is God”. You can’t do that in the Novus Ordo.
There is no silence in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which is said by my rite of the Church (the Byzantine), but the plainchant is not a distraction, and in churches where the entire Liturgy is sung by a choir (a Ukrainian and Russian tradition - a post-Nikonian development, I think, so relatively recent, and not usually done by the more traditional churches in my jurisdiction, the Ruthenian) one really can just relax and pray in silence, and we have upwards of two hours to do so. “Let us, who mystically represent the Cherubim, and sing the Thrice-Holy hymn to the life-creating Trinity, now set aside all earthly care…” You can’t “set aside all earthly care” in the Novus Ordo. And NOBODY talks in the sanctuary after Liturgy - it’s disrespectful to the icons for crying out loud, let alone the worshipers or Jesus in the Tabernacle, and Eastern Christians like their coffee in the basement. Before and after the Liturgy one can always pray alone in a relatively empty church, and there is nothing quite so peaceful as praying alone in a darkened Byzantine temple, with only you and the candles and the ikons and the clouds of leftover incense smoke.
- Status