Hope

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I think this is a good idea, as we’ve strayed here and there. If anyone wants to pit Wisdom or another virtue against Love at some point that’s fine but IMHO I think we should try to finish with the other virtues first.

Agreed, but i do not think we should look this gift horse of a revelation in the mouth! Throwing Wisdom in the mix does not make things as clear as mud, rather, it gives you or i a much clearer understanding of Faith. Please allow me to explain:

We have been saying all along that Faith is, at least in part, the result of revelation and the question has been raised whether she has reason as one of her attributes at all. I’d now like to raise the question whether she has revelation as one of her causes.

It seems to me that revelation is a cause of Wisdom, which if i’m not mistaken, is the virtue by which we receive truth. Faith, being the virtue by which we rationally believe truth to be true, would then rightly be said to be caused, not by revelation, but by Wisdom. Love, in turn, would not be caused by revelation, but by Faith. The sequence of cause and effect would be this:

God >> Wisdom >> Faith and Hope >> Love

God is ultimately the cause of Love, but she cannot come into being without her parents Faith and Hope. In turn, Faith and Hope owe their existence to their mother Wisdom, who was, as the writer of Proverbs wrote, the very first creation of God:

** Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice? **

On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:

"To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.

You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.

Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.

My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.

All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.

To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.

Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,

for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

"I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.

To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.

By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;

by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth. [a]

I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.

With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.

My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.

I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,

bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.

"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

** I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
**
When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

"Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.

Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.

Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.

For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

(Proverbs 8)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It seems fitting to me that since Wisdom was the first of God’s works of the creation of the universe, so she will be the first of His works in the creation of the new you and the new me.

Now, one might say that He loved us before the foundations of the earth were laid, so Love came before Wisdom. If that is the case, then the word first in Proverbs is not in regard to chronology, instead first is in regard to priority or greatness. This would mean that Wisdom is the supreme queen.

However, as you FH said, we should see if Love finishes off Faith before she turns to face Wisdom. But she better make quick work of it, for it seems evident that Wisdom has already entered the ring!

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Round 2: Love vs Faith

 

[fhansen]

True, FH. But could revelation alone remain at three persons in one God?



It seems to me that once a person arrives, through revelation, at the idea that God is one What in three Whos, she might not be content to stay there without the help of reason. Being told what the truth is, is not the same knowing why it is true. Why i believe is as important to me as what i believe. Without the why, i live in doubt and fear that what i believe might be a lie. And doubt, as we have already agreed, is the opposite of faith. To understand the why, i need reason. I need to ask questions of God and others, difficult questions like the ones i’ve been asking. Without answers to those questions, i have only revelation without assurance that it should be trusted.

It’s right and normal for humans to seek understanding-God gave us a brain for that purpose and the Church says as much, too-but Gods’ ways are, after all, higher than ours as the heavens are above the earth and there’re things we simply may not get to know -unless it’s granted us by grace to intuit them directly. The Love of God, itself, falls under that category. But it’s profitable in any case, I think, to keep pushing the limits-or else we’ll never know for ourselves if there are any!

 

[fhansen]

There may be a confusion of sorts here as to how to define “greatness” in attempting to rank the virtues. Is a virtue more valuable due to it’s efficacy in helping us reach a goal or might we rank it according to its ability to make us happy? What if a virtue, itself, could be the cause of happiness? Would that make it the greatest? Or should we define it by asking, which virtue would I want to possess or experience-which would satisfy me most deeply-if it were the only one I could have? Do we rank it according to how beautiful we perceive it to be on its’ own merits or merely by how perfectly or fully we may be capable of possessing it right now?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It’s right and normal for humans to seek understanding-God gave us a brain for that purpose and the Church says as much, too-but Gods’ ways are, after all, higher than ours as the heavens are above the earth and there’re things we simply may not get to know -unless it’s granted us by grace to intuit them directly. The Love of God, itself, falls under that category. But it’s profitable in any case, I think, to keep pushing the limits-or else we’ll never know for ourselves if there are any!

Agreed. Let us push away, then and see how big this playpen is!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There may be a confusion of sorts here as to how to define “greatness” in attempting to rank the virtues. Is a virtue more valuable due to it’s efficacy in helping us reach a goal or might we rank it according to its ability to make us happy? What if a virtue, itself, could be the cause of happiness? Would that make it the greatest? Or should we define it by asking, which virtue would I want to possess or experience-which would satisfy me most deeply-if it were the only one I could have? Do we rank it according to how beautiful we perceive it to be on its’ own merits or merely by how perfectly or fully we may be capable of possessing it right now?

Spoken like a true Socratic! Good questions, all.



Which of the two virtues we are considering in Round 2 would make you or i most happy? Before you answer, i’d suggest that we be fair to each lady warrior. We should consider each virtue in and of itself, unmixed with the other, to see what a life committed to her, and only her alone, would be like.

Here is the question i think Socrates himself would ask you or i: What is better? a life devoted to Faith but devoid of Love? or a life adoring Love but with a complete absence of Faith? Please think carefully and then give me your thoughtful answer.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t know where to start-there’s so many ways to say the same thing and all mine seem inadequate- but someone has to do it, I guess.

What would the good be-and what would the purpose be-of my having eternal faith in God, nothing more nor less than that? Faith may be a vehicle employed in the here and now to help us get to heaven but it wasn’t even necessary until the fall. Love of God was lost at the fall. God, for all practical purposes, was lost to man at the fall. Man became exiled from God, the source of his life-man was allowed to exile himself- and man must learn for himself the deceptively simple sounding truth of the words Pope Benedict penned, **“Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.” **

Gods’ grace-Gods’ love-is the New Covenant promise to those who’ll receive it which has the purpose of enabling man to fulfill the Law of Love. Only mans’ love will satisfy God and only Gods’ love can satisfy man. We should keep in mind that just as we find in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for man rather than the other way around, all the laws are made for man-for mans’ own good- and all of the law is based on love:

**“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matt 22:36

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:10
**
The writer of Hebrews cites Jeremiah 31:33 as a prophetic promise to fulfill this law in us in the New Covenant:

**“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.” **

And as St John of the Cross said:
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.

Adam & Eve could accept or reject Gods love by rejecting or accepting Gods’ godhood, or rightful authority over them. We have the same choice. The entire goal of our faith is for God to restore us to Himself- to Love- and the ineffable eternal happiness that His Love brings. But in Catholic teaching, He won’t do it without our choosing Love.

.… We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1Cor8:1-3

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well said, FH. Extremely insightful. I’d say you’ve been listening to the one who is Love in the flesh, and in the Spirit. To add insult to Faith’s injury, i’m reminded of these words that will cut to the bone:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.(1 John 4:8) What can Faith put up as a defense? She cannot say, “God is Faith” for God is not Trust, but rather the one we trust. The best she can do is to say:

And without faith it is impossible to please God …(Hebrews 11:6)I think Love would then counter the attack with an onslaught of lightning-quick blows by saying:

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.(James 2)In other words, Faith without Love is dead, it seems. It’s not looking good for Hope’s sister, though she has put up a good fight to avenger her sibling’s death till now. I do not think we should find the blood either have spilled as offensive, for Christ did the same out of faith in the Father and love for you and me.



Love vs Faith

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

But let’s be sure Love passes your test and Faith does not: You proposed, FH that the greatest virtue is the one that gives you or i the greatest satisfaction. So, what would a life of Love but with no Faith be like? I suppose it would be like that of Gandhi or Buddha, who had no faith in the God you or i want to know, but who lived lives of unselfish love far better than i, and perhaps better than you. Were these men, and others like them (including my favorite seeker of Wisdom, Socrates) satisfied with their lives? It would seem so.

Now, how about a life of Faith with no Love to show for it? It would be an existence like that of Cardinal Thomas Wolsey during the reign of the Tudor, King Henry VIII–one with no room for love of anyone but himself. He was not satisfied with his end when he got what he deserved, and i would not be surprised if he is not satisfied to this day. Now, one might still argue that Egotists like Wolsey, and those far more self-absorbed and evil, often do get much satisfaction from this life, but i doubt it would be worth what comes afterward. Jesus said of such men:

So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.(Revelation 3:16)Luke warm, i take it, was the way our Lord described the love of such men. It seems a life of Faith without Love is eternally unsatisfying for both God and men. There is hope, however, for those who do their best to love and who are in complete ignorance of who God really is.

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Cardinal Thomas Wolsey

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Unless you FH (or another) has anything to say in defense of Faith, we will have to proclaim Love the victor of round 2. Barring such assistance, it appears that the best for which Faith can hope is to be found the second greatest virtue and the silver medal, though it remains to be seen if Wisdom is greater than she. Poor Hope is delegated to third or perhaps fourth place in this contest; the best for which Hope can hope is the bronze.

 

[Hamlet123]

At any rate, i’ve given up hope for Hope but not for Faith, at least not yet! By trying see whether St. Paul was wrong, perhaps i’ll find out why he was right. I have complete faith that the truth will prevail, for you or i don’t have to defend the truth; the truth defends itself.

Albeit, trampled about. It is a couragous animal that raises it head amongst the evil of dstortions; but oddly only intermitently - does truth raise it head and shine.

 

[Hamlet123]

.… We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1Cor8:1-3

Am I close to understanding you and Socrates?:

How can we Love without knowing (an attribute, quality of Faith) the beloved? In your words (I think) - They (Love and Faith) are two sides of one coin. Now, Wisdom isn’t it two qualites 1. knowledge of the Truth and 2. acting properly (for the Good)? One may know that a certain metal is stronger, more flexible, lighter, and cost less than steele but still use steele.

So, knowing God intellectually (a part of Faith) does not equate to Wisdom. But knowing God (knowledge) and lovng Him (an act), that is Wisdom.

But this contradicts, “To know God is to love God.” I am perplexed, help:shrug:

 

[Hamlet123]

Here is the question i think Socrates himself would ask you or i: What is better? a life devoted to Faith but devoid of Love? or a life adoring Love but with a complete absence of Faith? Please think carefully and then give me your thoughtful answer.

Have you spent any time with Down Syndrone children? Happy. I was going to say they are full of Love and dismiss Faith; but you will (my opinion) never find a group with more Trust. Perplexed again!

 

[Sister_G]

Socrates, for me there are only a few trusted sources on the net, but here is something that may help regarding “wisdom” and Saint Paul. Please see the following: newadvent.org/fathers/220110.htm
However, I am not certain how we got so far away from the original topic of hope. Can you help me with this?

 

[Sister_G]

Hamlet, where one virtue is all the others are there too. So you don’t have to have one and not the others, it is in fact impossible!

Having been a special education teacher, I can say with confidence that Down Syndrome children are some of the purest souls I have encountered. They have several innate qualities, not the least of which is “love,” it is truly characteristic of them. However, when one has “love” one has everything - all virtues included!

Please refer to the following Catechism points:
1826 “If I . . . have not charity,” says the Apostle, “I am nothing.” Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, "if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing."103 Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: "So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity."104
1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”;105 it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.

Hope this helps!

 

[fhansen]

Am I close to understanding you and Socrates?:

How can we Love without knowing (an attribute, quality of Faith) the beloved? In your words (I think) - They (Love and Faith) are two sides of one coin. Now, Wisdom isn’t it two qualites 1. knowledge of the Truth and 2. acting properly (for the Good)? One may know that a certain metal is stronger, more flexible, lighter, and cost less than steele but still use steele.

So, knowing God intellectually (a part of Faith) does not equate to Wisdom. But knowing God (knowledge) and lovng Him (an act), that is Wisdom.

But this contradicts, “To know God is to love God.” I am perplexed, help:shrug:

We’re on a knowledge quest ourselves here, hoping to reduce our own perplexity- at least learn something along the way. Anyway, I’m not sure exactly how to conceive of wisdom, either, because wisdom would have to be more than just knowledge. It always has a positive element-her knowledge is always oriented towards the good or right things to do.

I don’t think I ever said that faith and love were two sides of the same coin-doesn’t sound like me, anyway. “To know God is to love God” means, for me, that to be in Gods presence is to experience the love of God and one cannot help but to love Him in return. OTOH, Adam & Eve “walked” with God in some direct manner (they knew Him) and yet failed the test of love for Him, it appears. The CCC says they preferred themselves to God. Like the angels who disobeyed Him perhaps their knowledge was distorted by their preference to love themselves more-to see in themselves what they saw in Him. This, of course, is the sin of pride or self-righteousness, the most obvious mark of original sin in man and that which continues to maintain our separation from God. It would still amaze me, though, if they didn’t love Him when with Him in the garden, maybe their “vision” of Him was diminished somewhat compared to the Beatific Vision, I don’t know, but obviously they lacked the wisdom to obey Him in any case.

I believe that wisdom is the one quality that man can gain here on planet earth-and this is why the Catholic teaching of man’s will being involved in the process of his own salvation is so important BTW-because here we experience the pain of separation from God, having been exiled from Him, cast out of the garden, cut off from the tree of life. Here we literally *know *good and evil: love, beauty, pleasure, goodness, life-along with pain, suffering, corruption, sin, and death. We get to find out what life is like where God is effectively missing, where mans’ will reigns rather than His for all practical purposes, especially in the moral sphere. This education can serve to produce the kind of wisdom that says “yes” to God, that knows that man needs God, when combined with the revelation of Himself He’s given to man.

Other virtues are implied with the virtue of love but the theological virtues of faith and hope that we’ve been discussing- gifts of grace which allow us to believe in and trust in something we cannot see- are certainly no longer required as they are here on earth once we see God face to face, because then we know Him directly.

Perhaps, then, Gods’ purpose is to mold beings into those who possess the wisdom to choose to obey Him because they’ve learned the wisdom of that act and by that act they will retain His love.

 

[fhansen]

Have you spent any time with Down Syndrone children? Happy. I was going to say they are full of Love and dismiss Faith; but you will (my opinion) never find a group with more Trust. Perplexed again!

This is true that trust was lost -or questioned for no good reason- at the fall and trust must be regained. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the ultimate demonstration of Gods love and trustworthiness-sort of blasting out of the water any reason we might’ve thought we had for doubt.

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness. (CCC)

 

[Hamlet123]

Hamlet, where one virtue is all the others are there too. So you don’t have to have one and not the others, it is in fact impossible!

Having been a special education teacher, I can say with confidence that Down Syndrome children are some of the purest souls I have encountered. They have several innate qualities, not the least of which is “love,” it is truly characteristic of them. However, when one has “love” one has everything - all virtues included!

Please refer to the following Catechism points:
1826 “If I . . . have not charity,” says the Apostle, “I am nothing.” Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, "if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing."103 Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: "So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity."104
1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”;105 it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.

Hope this helps!

Your comments are moving and informative. I have copied your comment and I will try to memorize #1827 of the catechism. But can you clarify:

“…where one virtue is all the others are there too…”
This is powerful! But I have to ask, if I am properly disciplined in my eating habits (a virtue) then, according to this proposition, I will be considerate of others (another virtue). Are you saying “All who love are that which have other virtues”? And are you making an immediate inference that as a result of this premise “All that have other virtues are that which have love”?

Can you say “All fish are that which swim; therefore, all that swim are fish”? or “All rocks are hard; therefore, all that is hard is rocks”? Help me whales swim and wood is hard. Hitler had the discipline of St. Francis; I question his love.

 

[Hamlet123]

This is true that trust was lost -or questioned for no good reason- at the fall and trust must be regained. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the ultimate demonstration of Gods love and trustworthiness-sort of blasting out of the water any reason we might’ve thought we had for doubt.

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness. (CCC)

I agree with you 1 billiion percent; especially, “Man tempted.” I think we are all Adam we all ate that damn S.O.B. apple. And as you say it was “our heart” that ate it. I had a (almost) perfect father and mother and I left the Church and God for somewhile. And why, I really think you hit the Apple on the head “me letting trust die in my heart.” Boy! pride is a terrible thing!

 

[Hamlet123]

1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”;105 it is the form of the virtues;

Gosh, I am so intriqued by this paragraph (1827). The word “form” here, does it mean the substance of, the very nature of, the foundation of…? If it does, love is the foundation of ALL the virtues and the source of ALL virtues, yes?

Then as Socrates and all the other people on this blog have been trying to do, we need to know what love is or at least be able to differentiate it. Yes?

it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love,

If charity …upholds and purifiies… our ability to love, then isn’t there a difference between Charity and Love? The sentence implies there is a difference. If there is a difference, that is good news for me because I have always felt there is a problem with viewing charity (something we are commanded to do) as a feeling.
How do you (all) feel?

and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.

Hope this helps!