Hope

[fhansen]

1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”;105 it is the form of the virtues;

Gosh, I am so intriqued by this paragraph (1827). The word “form” here, does it mean the substance of, the very nature of, the foundation of…? If it does, love is the foundation of ALL the virtues and the source of ALL virtues, yes?

Then as Socrates and all the other people on this blog have been trying to do, we need to know what love is or at least be able to differentiate it. Yes?

it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love,

If charity …upholds and purifiies… our ability to love, then isn’t there a difference between Charity and Love? The sentence implies there is a difference. If there is a difference, that is good news for me because I have always felt there is a problem with viewing charity (something we are commanded to do) as a feeling.
How do you (all) feel?

There is no difference between the words in Christian usage. In common usage the word charity describes acts of love but its root is the Latin word caritas which refers to the greatest form of love: agape.

 

[Sister_G]

Folks, some of you seem to have a little bit of “forest for the trees” syndrome. God is simple, we are complex. God is love and all things exist in Him. We are sinful creatures and to the extent that Love dwells in us and we in Love, THEN the other virtues are present. However, we must practice them, hence the term “habit of doing good” which refers to virtue. We need to be simple like little children - full of trust in Him Who has loved us from the beginning! This is why St Augustine says, “Love and do what you will.” Love only does what God wants!!!

 

[fhansen]

I agree with you 1 billiion percent; especially, “Man tempted.” I think we are all Adam we all ate that damn S.O.B. apple. And as you say it was “our heart” that ate it. I had a (almost) perfect father and mother and I left the Church and God for somewhile. And why, I really think you hit the Apple on the head “me letting trust die in my heart.” Boy! pride is a terrible thing!

That quote was from the Catechism, BTW. Yes, we all ate the apple with Adam, we’re all prodigals, and IMHO we all would’ve fallen eventually, given eternity to do it. And yet life’s worth it, as God knew when he created, intending to bring a greater good out of the evil that befell creation. In Catholic thought, the “Blessed Fault” or felix culpa asserts that the fall has a positive element because of the fact that it caused the need for “so great a Redeemer.” In Gods plan of salvation everything has a purpose, here apparently of transforming man into something greater than he would’ve been otherwise.

Then as Socrates and all the other people on this blog have been trying to do, we need to know what love is or at least be able to differentiate it. Yes?

Yes, we need to learn what love is in order to know why and how it deserves to be put in top position.

1827…Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.

Gods’ perfect love is the gift through which we’re enabled to become perfected also, providing that we accept the gift and cooperate with Him in it.

 

[Hamlet123]

In Catholic thought, the “Blessed Fault” or felix culpa asserts that the fall has a positive element because of the fact that it caused the need for “so great a Redeemer.”

Just recently on the Veritas Forum or William Lane Craig’s sight I read and listenned briefly to a professor from Notre Dame using the above as one evidence for the reason God would allow evil and proof that this IS as perfect of a cosmos as could be built. Who knows, it could have been you, fhansen.

Dominus vobiscum

 

[fhansen]

.… We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1Cor8:1-3

Am I close to understanding you and Socrates?:

How can we Love without knowing (an attribute, quality of Faith) the beloved? In your words (I think) - They (Love and Faith) are two sides of one coin. Now, Wisdom isn’t it two qualites 1. knowledge of the Truth and 2. acting properly (for the Good)? One may know that a certain metal is stronger, more flexible, lighter, and cost less than steele but still use steele.

So, knowing God intellectually (a part of Faith) does not equate to Wisdom. But knowing God (knowledge) and lovng Him (an act), that is Wisdom.

But this contradicts, “To know God is to love God.” I am perplexed, help:shrug:

I think I understand this question better now-I’m not sure, though. They’re not saying that knowledge is bad or unprofitable. They’re saying that knowledge of any kind by itself can lead to pride. But if that knowledge doesn’t stop there but rather continues on to lead one to love, then we’ve arrived at a far superior place. I keep attributing this quote to Thomas Kempis but I may be wrong-anyway it serves to make the point pretty well in its own way:

**“I’d rather have compunction than know the meaning of the word.” **

That’s a heart that places becoming perfected ahead of looking good in the eyes of the world.

Here’s another relevant quote, maybe challenging, this time from the bible:

**For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. 1Cor 1:18-25
**

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

.… We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1Cor8:1-3

Am I close to understanding you and Socrates?:

How can we Love without knowing (an attribute, quality of Faith) the beloved? In your words (I think) - They (Love and Faith) are two sides of one coin. Now, Wisdom isn’t it two qualites 1. knowledge of the Truth and 2. acting properly (for the Good)? One may know that a certain metal is stronger, more flexible, lighter, and cost less than steel but still use steel.

So, knowing God intellectually (a part of Faith) does not equate to Wisdom. But knowing God (knowledge) and lovng Him (an act), that is Wisdom.

But this contradicts, “To know God is to love God.” I am perplexed, help:shrug:

Good thoughts, Hamlet about Love and Faith. The Christian cannot have Love without Faith nor Faith without Love. Both virtues need one another, even if Love is the greater of the two. Rather than run Faith through, Love would be wise to disarm her and bring her to her knees in submission.



Regarding Wisdom, you make an extremely insightful point. I quite agree, for how can one be said to be wise who knows what she should do and yet does not do it? Seems more the actions of a fool. This will help us form a better understanding of Wisdom’s strengths before she matches her steel against Love.



I think there’s more wisdom in you than you might know!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Here is the question i think Socrates himself would ask you or i: What is better? a life devoted to Faith but devoid of Love? or a life adoring Love but with a complete absence of Faith? Please think carefully and then give me your thoughtful answer.

Have you spent any time with Down Syndrome children? Happy. I was going to say they are full of Love and dismiss Faith; but you will (my opinion) never find a group with more Trust. Perplexed again!

No, but i spent seven years of my life (16 or more hours a day every other week) living with Downs Syndrome adults, and other developmentally disabled adults. They seemed as prone to sin, and some more prone to violence, than those who did not live in group homes. Perhaps all of them, i think, would have been happy to trade places with me, if even for a day. Perhaps the difference between them and developmentally disabled kids is that the kids do not yet feel abandoned?

As a wise Christian teacher i once heard on the radio said, “We can only love to the degree we ourselves are loved.” I imagine the Downs Syndrome kids you knew were greatly loved.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates, for me there are only a few trusted sources on the net, but here is something that may help regarding “wisdom” and Saint Paul. Please see the following: newadvent.org/fathers/220110.htm
However, I am not certain how we got so far away from the original topic of hope. Can you help me with this?

The fault is mine, Sister, for not knowing what i wanted to know before i began.



In short, i began asking what Hope was. I then asked how it differed from Faith. I then wanted to know why St. Paul thought Love greater than both. I’m now wondering why St. Paul did not consider Wisdom at all when he mentioned the other three.

The personification of the virtues as beautiful women who surprisingly take up swords against one another is just for fun, and perhaps to get our imaginations and creative thinking more involved.

 

[Sister_G]

OK, now I get a sense of things. You had beautifully defined hope a number of times over the thread, so I thought you were more or less contemplating it aloud and getting some feedback/(name removed by moderator)ut.
Certainly, the three theological virtues are all about our relationship with God, as you know. Hope is something many people seem to be questioning these days and so this is why Pope Benedict XVI wrote “Spe Salvi” so that we as Church would understand more the application and ramifications of hope. Have you read it? It is a wonderful treatise.

As for knowledge, it is necessary towards love of God, but it can never be the master of love. Pride of the intellect is a very subtle thing.

I hope that God gives you whatever light you need to assist you on this journey! YOu have my prayers!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

OK, now I get a sense of things. You had beautifully defined hope a number of times over the thread, so I thought you were more or less contemplating it aloud and getting some feedback/(name removed by moderator)ut.
Certainly, the three theological virtues are all about our relationship with God, as you know. Hope is something many people seem to be questioning these days and so this is why Pope Benedict XVI wrote “Spe Salvi” so that we as Church would understand more the application and ramifications of hope. Have you read it? It is a wonderful treatise. …

I’d be interested in reading it if you, Sister would be interested and discussing it with me. I find that reading a book is as unreliable a way of finding the truth as admiring a painting.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… As for knowledge, it is necessary towards love of God, but it can never be the master of love. Pride of the intellect is a very subtle thing.

I hope that God gives you whatever light you need to assist you on this journey! YOu have my prayers!

That is my hope as well, and i have complete faith He will show me what He wants me to know. Thank you Sister for your prayers!



However, is it really enough to say you will pray and suggest a book and do nothing more? As St. James wrote:

If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

(James 2)Since the saint’s words apply to the body, how much more they are applicable to the soul! If you desire to do so, i’d be glad if you would stay awhile and do your best to think this through with me. If you like, please explain your meaning. If you don’t like, i shall not be offended.

What i’d like to know is this: By saying knowledge is not Love’s master, i take it you mean that Wisdom never commands Love, rather Love commands Wisdom. Love is Wisdom’s Lord and Master and Wisdom is Love’s servant and slave. Do i have a fair understanding your opinion?

 

[Hamlet123]

I think there’s more wisdom in you than you might know!



Thanks, Dad. You wrote it exactly the way I told you to.

 

[Sister_G]

I will do my best. You can get “Spe Salvi” at the Vatican website.
Here is the link: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

The foot notes are also a great help. This will be a good Lenten journey!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I will do my best. You can get “Spe Salvi” at the Vatican website.
Here is the link: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

The foot notes are also a great help. This will be a good Lenten journey!

Sister:

Do you think it true that a picture is worth a thousand words?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thanks, Dad. You wrote it exactly the way I told you to.

I’m not sure i follow your meaning.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

We’re on a knowledge quest ourselves here, hoping to reduce our own perplexity- at least learn something along the way. Anyway, I’m not sure exactly how to conceive of wisdom, either, because wisdom would have to be more than just knowledge. It always has a positive element-her knowledge is always oriented towards the good or right things to do.

… I believe that wisdom is the one quality that man can gain here on planet earth-and this is why the Catholic teaching of man’s will being involved in the process of his own salvation is so important BTW-because here we experience the pain of separation from God, having been exiled from Him, cast out of the garden, cut off from the tree of life. Here we literally *know *good and evil: love, beauty, pleasure, goodness, life-along with pain, suffering, corruption, sin, and death. We get to find out what life is like where God is effectively missing, where mans’ will reigns rather than His for all practical purposes, especially in the moral sphere. This education can serve to produce the kind of wisdom that says “yes” to God, that knows that man needs God, when combined with the revelation of Himself He’s given to man.

Other virtues are implied with the virtue of love but the theological virtues of faith and hope that we’ve been discussing- gifts of grace which allow us to believe in and trust in something we cannot see- are certainly no longer required as they are here on earth once we see God face to face, because then we know Him directly.

Perhaps, then, Gods’ purpose is to mold beings into those who possess the wisdom to choose to obey Him because they’ve learned the wisdom of that act and by that act they will retain His love.

Extremely well said, FH! If you had to hazard a guess, would you say that Wisdom has the same ability to survive after death as Love? or would you say it will suffer the same fates that befell Hope and Faith, leaving Love the lone survivor?

 

[Sister_G]

Yes, I do believe that a picture is worth a thousand words!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, I do believe that a picture is worth a thousand words!

Yes, and it seems to me that Spe Salvi paints such a picture!

Have you ever noticed how some pictures are so lifelike that you’d swear the people in them were real?

 

[fhansen]

If you had to hazard a guess, would you say that Wisdom has the same ability to survive after death as Love? or would you say it will suffer the same fates that befell Hope and Faith, leaving Love the lone survivor?

A while back one thread asked if it were possible to sin in heaven. Many people said that in heaven that desire is taken away or that the Beatific Vision is so overwhelming that we won’t want to sin. But Scripture and, I believe it’s safe to say, Catholic doctrine, says that no sin can even enter heaven. To me this means that God/love/heaven and sin are mutually exclusive-we couldn’t experience heaven if we wanted to if we’re still attached to created things, placing them above God. And this is one reason why purgatory, a “place” of final purification, makes sense-and is another aspect of Gods’ mercy.

I don’t believe God wants to magically justify or transform us, whether here or in heaven. That might be more akin to Reformed theology. Love is a choice and Gods’ grace offers to mold/transform us but not without our cooperation. He* draws* us. This way we know why we love Him-because we’ve learned of His supreme value. For this same reason He won’t force us to love or obey Him either. Otherwise He may as well have prevented the fall or redeemed man immediately thereafter and avoided all the intervening drama. Instead He gave us sort of a reprieve-this life- where our eternal destinies may be worked out in time, where we’re allowed to struggle with sin and see if we really like it-to see if anything outside of God and His will can really satisfy us. This was the option Adam & Eve chose for us all. God let them do it and we now have the option to reverse this course of action within each of us. And this is a process called conversion, not an all-at-once event, but a process whereby we grow in perfection until God deems us ready.

All this to say that yes, I believe that wisdom gained will not be lost. We will always know why God deserves to be loved and obeyed and probably grow more yet in that awareness. Creation will not only be united in love with Him but also one in will with Him. OTOH, if it’s more correct to say that all is contained or subsumed in Love, that nothing is excluded by that term, even wisdom, then so be it.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

A while back one thread asked if it were possible to sin in heaven. Many people said that in heaven that desire is taken away or that the Beatific Vision is so overwhelming that we won’t want to sin. But Scripture and, I believe it’s safe to say, Catholic doctrine, says that no sin can even enter heaven. To me this means that God/love/heaven and sin are mutually exclusive-we couldn’t experience heaven if we wanted to if we’re still attached to created things, placing them above God. And this is one reason why purgatory, a “place” of final purification, makes sense-and is another aspect of Gods’ mercy. …

Yes, that would be my understanding of Scripture, and my examination of the evidence and reason tells me Scripture is one way God communicates to us.