Hope

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WISDOM (standing close enough to embrace Socrates from behind and whispering softly in his right ear): What do you see, Socrates?

SOCRATES: See? I see the Amazon Warrior Love approaching me in all her glory, with flaming sword drawn, ready to kill me with kindness! (i.e., the end of my miserable existence.) That’s what i see!

WIS (still whispering in his ear): How does that make you feel, sweet Soc?

SOC: Well, for a brief moment, the feel of your warm breath caressing my ear made me almost forget that my knees are knocking, my heart is pounding, i’m breaking out in a cold sweat. There’s no doubt about it: i’m completely and utterly terrified!

WIS: Good.

SOC: Good? is that all you can say? Good? Here i am playing the fool for you (which does not reflect well on you, i might add) and all you can say is . . .

WIS: Why?

SOC: Why? What do you think others are going to think of you when i fail so miserably to defend you?

WIS: No. Why do you fear?

SOC: Well, look at her: She’s Virtue Love incarnate, approaching quickly and ready to smote me with a wrath that would rival God’s. The best for which i can hope is that she’ll show a little mercy and take my head clean off with the first stroke, isn’t it? She’s Love in the flesh, and God is Love, isn’t He? How ludicrous is that? For God’s sake! I might as well be taking up arms against Him! O why did i ever listen to you?

WIS: Socrates, Socrates, you are upset and worried about so many things. Only one thing is needed.

SOC: And what is that? (Please tell me it is to hand this sword in my hand to you and get behind you.)

WIS: Fear.

SOC: Fear? All i have to need is fear itself?

WIS (still whispering softly): Yes, my dearest Soc. It’s the beginning of me.
 
Gentlemen, I think we can tie a knot in this thread and hang on to the depth and beauty of God and His Love for all of us! In His wisdom nothing is lacking and we need only dive in to the abyss of His Love - I think that would be the wisest thing we could ever do!
 
Sister_G said:
Gentlemen, I think we can tie a knot in this thread and hang on to the depth and beauty of God and His Love for all of us! In His wisdom nothing is lacking and we need only dive in to the abyss of His Love - I think that would be the wisest thing we could ever do!
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Having come so close to the Truth, will you now close your eyes and turn your back on Him and walk away?

🤷

Please answer me one question before you go, Sister. Just one.
 
WISDOM: (speaking with more urgency, now): Listen to me Socrates. There’s not much time.

SOCRATES (turning to face Wisdom and turning his back on approaching Love): I’m all ears, not that it will do me any good.

WIS: When she draws close enough to strike she will ask you one question. Answer truthfully, or you will not live to see tomorrow.

SOC: I don’t suppose you know what she will ask, and how i should answer.

WIS: Yes, but i won’t tell you the answer. You must discover that yourself.

SOC: Quickly, then. What will she ask?

WIS: Do you love her?

SOC: Is that the question, or are you asking me?

WIS: Yes.

SOC: Do i love Love? Well, i suppose i love her about as much as those people who loved the one with the Chainsaw before he cut them in half! (You know, the ones in that Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie you warned me not to watch.) But, no. I really should love Love, shouldn’t i? I mean, if i say i don’t love her, i’m done for, aren’t i?

WIS: You should say the truth, Socrates.

LOVE: Socrates, turn and face me. I have something to ask you.

SOC (turns to see Love towering over him, smiling victoriously, with drawn sword and he is terrified).
 
Most of us don’t love Love as we should. By fearing God, we’re at least wise enough to place our hope in Him. But it is He who we hope in after all. Our love is not complete now-we still rely on faith and hope-we aren’t-I’m not anyway- yet wise enough to be completely unattached to sin and completely turned back to God. So our hope can only be in Him. I’m confident He will perfect us in that Love. That’s what salvation consists of. Our part is to be wise enough-like the wise virgins who kept oil for their lamps- to persevere- and get better at persevering-*in believing, hoping, and acting in love. *God is patient; conversion is a process-and mercifully so.

“In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” Phil 1:3-6
 
Sister_G said:
I will answer if I can. Please proceed.
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Thank you.

🙂

As you said, Sacred Scripture and the early church father tells us:

The **fear **of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.(Psalm 111:10)Now, Sacred Scripture and the Apostle who loved Jesus also tells us this:

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.(1 John 4:18)

So, my question is this:

Since it is true that(1) the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, and (2) there is no fear in Lovethen do you agree that the only conclusion we should draw from this is that

Love is not the beginning (that is, not the cause) of Wisdom?
 
fhansen said:
Most of us don’t love Love as we should. By fearing God, we’re at least wise enough to place our hope in Him. But it is He who we hope in after all. Our love is not complete now-we still rely on faith and hope-we aren’t-I’m not anyway- yet wise enough to be completely unattached to sin and completely turned back to God. So our hope can only be in Him. I’m confident He will perfect us in that Love. That’s what salvation consists of. Our part is to be wise enough-like the wise virgins who kept oil for their lamps- to persevere- and get better at persevering-*in believing, hoping, and acting in love. *God is patient; conversion is a process-and mercifully so.

**“In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” **Phil 1:3-6
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Then do you agree, FH that Wisdom is the virtue that a person is given first, before she learns to love God?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Then do you agree, FH that Wisdom is the virtue that a person is given first, before she learns to love God?
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I know that man unwisely separated himself from God and wisdom would suggest he turn back to Him again. In life the two, wisdom and love, grow concurrently, I suppose, but yes, one needs to gain the wisdom to see his condition clearly-that of being lost-so he can call out to God, “Abba, Father.”
 
fhansen said:
I know that man unwisely separated himself from God and wisdom would suggest he turn back to Him again. In life the two, wisdom and love, grow concurrently, I suppose, but yes, one needs to gain the wisdom to see his condition clearly-that of being lost-so he can call out to God, “Abba, Father.”
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Yes, but my experience was that i feared God long before i loved Him. As a boy, growing up Catholic, i had nothing BUT fear of Him. So, i suppose that for me, Psalm 111 rings true to my heart. It was not till i learned of Jesus’ love for me that i was able to let fear give way to love and begin to love Him.

Can you relate to my experience?

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You don’t have to say you’ve experienced the same. Perhaps you were too young then to remember now? No matter. Psalms 9 and 111 as well as the early church fathers Sister quoted all point to a common human experience of fear of God giving birth to Wisdom, not giving birth to Love. Since Wisdom comes before Love, Love cannot possibly be the mother of Wisdom.

It seems likely, then that when the virtue of Wisdom develops, it teaches the one who has her about the love of God. This understanding, then, results in the birth of the virtue of Love in the one so enlightened by Wisdom.

We love because he first loved us.(1 John 4:19)says the Sacred Scripture. So Wisdom, teaching us the reality of God’s love, gives birth to Love in the heart of the one taught by Wisdom. If God is our Father, Wisdom is His bride and Love’s mother (figuratively speaking, i mean).
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Can you relate to my experience?
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Of course, many of us can. But the fear spoken of in Ps111 is still of a different kind, I believe. That fear is the healthy awe of being in the presence of one so superior; it’s the acknowledging of ones relative inferiority, it’s humility before greatness. “God exalts the humble and resists the proud.” Arrogance is the opposite of this fear.

But the fear you speak of is one that, I’ve come to believe, comes from the human heart. It can be the fear of teachers of the faith that don’t know/love God well and also the fear of a student that doesn’t yet know Him either. As one grows in faith and knowledge of God, they grow in love of Him also, and “love casts out fear”. We find, especially in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the true face of God-that of love-even of a humble servant. I already don’t remember what I posted here so, risking redundancy; I’ll try to support the claim for not only Love, but of Gods’ love being unfathomably vast and unconditional.

God always loves man. But God gives man the freedom to set the conditions-to reject His unconditional love. Enmity between man and God comes from man, not God. By and through the original sin, man obtained mistrust, fear, jealousy, self-righteousness, disorder, discordance and a distorted image of God:

**397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286 *
**
The only reason we may have to fear Love is if we won’t Love. And for what possible reason wouldn’t* it be that way?
 
Well, there you have it. I promised i’d give the best reason Wisdom could come up with to explain why i believe she is greater than love. She is greater because she is the cause of Love.

I’d even go so far to say that she is not merely the initial cause, but also the continual cause. Wisdom reminds me every day of why i should love God and others. Love is then reborn, so to speak, in my soul and lives another day to motivate me and demonstrate Her existence in me by the things i do and say.

God spoke, and there was light. Wisdom speaks, and there is Love.

http://p-userpic.livejournal.com/54651626/8397562
 
fhansen said:
Of course, many of us can. But the fear spoken of in Ps111 is still of a different kind, I believe. That fear is the healthy awe of being in the presence of one so superior; it’s the acknowledging of ones relative inferiority, it’s humility before greatness. “God exalts the humble and resists the proud.” Arrogance is the opposite of this fear.

But the fear you speak of is one that, I’ve come to believe, comes from the human heart. It can be the fear of teachers of the faith that don’t know/love God well and also the fear of a student that doesn’t yet know Him either. As one grows in faith and knowledge of God, they grow in love of Him also, and “love casts out fear”. We find, especially in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the true face of God-that of love-even of a humble servant. I already don’t remember what I posted here so, risking redundancy; I’ll try to support the claim for not only Love, but of Gods’ love being unfathomably vast and unconditional.
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Agreed. And please don’t misunderstand that i’m saying fear is Wisdom, if that’s what you are thinking. This fear, whatever it is, is not a virtue, though it certainly helps create one–Wisdom.

You said, “As one grows in faith and knowledge of God, they grow in love of Him also …” and i think this illustrates my point. That is, true knowledge of God (which is Wisdom) helps true love for Him grow. Wisdom not only gives birth to Love, she also nurses Her daughter to maturity in your heart or mine.
 
The Sacred Scriptures tell us:

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

(Philippians 4:8)

I think there is a good reason for thinking about such things. Such Wisdom creates the capacity to Love more and more. The Holy command is always to think before we act, and do what Wisdom tells us is the right thing to do, regardless of our fears.
 
I suppose I am too young to know the “fear” everyone used to talk about, yet I grew up with older parents who fit that model. However, in my schooling, I learned that “fear” is not the “I’m scared of you” fear, but a fear of causing sorrow to the Beloved. Maybe that is why I am a Sister today. I don’t fear God in the wrong sense, I fear to cause Him sorrow - the sorrow of a soul who turns away from her Creator and Beloved. So if I were wise, I would keep my soul clean and stay close to my Beloved, and that I try to do - yet I feel the need to strengthen the resolution - using the gifts He gave me to return love for Love.
 
Sister_G said:
I suppose I am too young to know the “fear” everyone used to talk about, yet I grew up with older parents who fit that model. However, in my schooling, I learned that “fear” is not the “I’m scared of you” fear, but a fear of causing sorrow to the Beloved. Maybe that is why I am a Sister today. I don’t fear God in the wrong sense, I fear to cause Him sorrow - the sorrow of a soul who turns away from her Creator and Beloved. So if I were wise, I would keep my soul clean and stay close to my Beloved, and that I try to do - yet I feel the need to strengthen the resolution - using the gifts He gave me to return love for Love.
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Good to meet you, Sister! It’s cool that old sinful me is able to rub shoulders with young saintly you!

🙂

Yes, i have the same fear of disappointing Him. I fear that when i see His face for the first time i might not hear Him say, “Well done, good and faithful servant!”

This fear, like you said, is a different kind. But is still gives me the desire to learn what pleases Him (and such knowledge is Wisdom) and then to act on what i’ve learned (such action is Love). One might say that

Fear >> Wisdom >> Love

is the Divine Method that God uses to make me more loving. Though, i’ve heard that it was possible for some saints to get beyond fear and live this life

Wisdom >> Love >> Wisdom >> Love

which is a kind of Wisdom being motivated by Love rather than by Fear in an endless loop of more and more perfection. Now, i’ve never meant someone so fearless, but perhaps you, yourself have?

At any rate, it seems Wisdom is the cause of Love in this endless progression, though it might be said that out of Love for God we return to Wisdom to start the Holy Cycle all over again.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
God spoke, and there was light. Wisdom speaks, and there is Love.
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Love exists eternally. Love was rejected by man when man rejected God as his God, man preferring himself over Love, in a sense, man thinking he can find his happiness elsewhere. Love is still supreme but it’s a lost virtue for us-one we don’t recognize the loss of until God opens our eyes Then He begins to help with various gifts of grace. But love was never meant to be lost-this is against the will of God, as it should be. When man lost Love, he lost God and vice versa. Pope Benedict from Spe Salvi again. I love this line:
**“Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.”
**
 
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