Hostility towards Latin

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Anyone who would object to the use of Latin in the service is:
  1. ignorant of the language
  2. xenophobic
  3. ignorant of church history and the things Latin protects.
Our Latin language, along with Greek, makes the Church Western and Eastern at the same time.
Latin is our heritage.
And I would not let the xenophobia of one woman keep me from worshipping in it.
Learn Latin for yourself.
Teach Latin to others.
This is something to which you are entitled.
 
bmccpy78 said:
Yesterday was my parish’s annual picnic. I was having a conversation with my pastor and the topic of Latin in the new mass came up. He said that he would like to use Latin in parts of the mass at our parish but he just is not able to do it. He referenced to an occasion when he used one line of Latin during the mass and a woman stood up and shouted at him.😦 This worries me because we are a relatively orthodox parish with many women who still where lace head coverings and practice devotions before mass. I did not know how to respond to this. This upset me because he mentioned that he would like to restore more traditions (chant, incense, ect.) but it just would not be possible with the attitude of our parishioners. Is this a problem most parishes are faced with? What could our parish overcome these types of problems?
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The priest needs to run his own parish. A "woman standing up **DURING MASS & shoulting at him?" That is outrageous!! The priest should have been outside waiting for her after Mass, taken her into his office & made sure that she understood that, if she was going to shout about anything during Mass, she wouldn’t be welcome there anymore. **
 
I am shocked at the number of people on these fora that allow themselves to be threatened by a language. There are a number of people here who don’t even care enough to experience a Mass that is obviously sanctioned by the Pope, if not favored by him. What would you all do if you had to spend a year in another country. What if you had been stationed in Germany during the occupation, what would you have done? Just skipped Mass for a couple of years? What if you had the opportunity to spend a year in France as a student?

As far as I’m concerned, if the language of the Mass of the Ages is what is keeping you from praying this Mass (& I have doubts about that), which is part of your culture & your heritage…well, that’s just pure laziness. The Seven Deadly Sins are:
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
**Sloth **
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Sloth is defined as spiritual or emotional apathy, neglecting what God has spoken, and being physically, mentally and emotionally inactive.

Sloth can also indicate a wasting due to lack of use, concerning a person, place, thing, skill, or intangible ideal that would require maintenance, refinement, or support to continue to exist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth_(deadly_sin)#Definition

Those who would let such a small intellectual challenge…learning to follow the priest’s Latin prayers by using an English/Latin missal… keep themselves from experiencing the WHOLE of their faith, I just don’t know how to relate to such people. There’s no excuse for not even trying.
 
CradleCath said:
As far as I’m concerned, if the language of the Mass of the Ages is what is keeping you from praying this Mass (& I have doubts about that), which is part of your culture & your heritage…well, that’s just pure laziness. The Seven Deadly Sins are:
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
**Sloth **
Wrath
Envy
Pride
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Those sins are not in keeping with the spirit of Vatican II. No one knows what those words mean. We should re-translate them to keep them current for kids today:

Seinfeld
Newman
Costanza
Kramer
Elaine
Costanza
Newman

That will clear up any possible confusion.
 
bkayw said:
I asked my 91 year old Dad about the Latin Mass. He hated it because the laity didn’t understand Latin and the Mass became difficult to receive in.

I vaguely remember the Latin Mass as a very young child (I was born in '60). My older sisters were always asking, “What are they saying?”

I listen often to EWTN, and the cantor (?) will sing a Psalm in Latin. I like to sing and realize that if I were there, I’d be left in the pew unable to sing. Latin is exclusionary.

There are many beautiful Latin songs that I love (Tavenger) but actually those songs althou liturgy, are sung by 3 or 4 very accomplished singers.
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Latin is the official language of the Church. Rather than hating it or labelling with ‘exclusionary’ perhaps a greater exploration of your faith would be to learn it. Actually, the vernacular is exclusionary to anyone who doesn’t speak that language.
 
viveret said:
Anyone who would object to the use of Latin in the service is:
  1. ignorant of the language
  2. xenophobic
  3. ignorant of church history and the things Latin protects.
Our Latin language, along with Greek, makes the Church Western and Eastern at the same time.
Latin is our heritage.
And I would not let the xenophobia of one woman keep me from worshipping in it.
Learn Latin for yourself.
Teach Latin to others.
This is something to which you are entitled.
Click to expand...
I do not like the use of such harsh generalizations. However, one thing that I noticed in my parish is that a lot of the people that I heard arguing about the usage of Latin are the same people that mostly complain about Hispanics not being fluent in English and having the Mass in Spanish. Just a strange correlation but a true one.
 
bmccpy78 said:
While those that would be unhappy with a wider use of Latin and sacred music are a minority in my parish they are a very vocal minority and can be very uncharitable to those that don’t agree with them. He is not looking to offer the whole mass in Latin (except for maybe very solemn occasions such as the triduum) just small parts on occasion angus dei, the consecration, ect. He has received some requests to use the high altar on occasion which he has no problem with, but some parishioners respond with “I wont have that in my parish”. So it sits idle like a lifeless gold adorned slab of marble under a dust covered mosaic encrusted baldacchino, just remnants of a past era. Whats strange is we offer a creole mass for our hatian society and they have no problem with that it’s just the latin.
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What a shame that the priest is not the one in charge of a parish.

I’d certainly holler as loud as the other side if I were you. (AND SUPPORT YOUR PRIEST!)
 
Onegin said:
Interestingly, I feel “excluded” if I attend a Spanish, Italian or German Mass. I have no idea what is going on because I can only follow the visual cues. Whereas, if I attend a Latin Mass, the Mass is exactly the same and understandable whether I attend it in London, Lisbon, Latvia or Laos. I only need to learn one language to unite me to my fellow Catholics. Latin is the universal, unchangeable language.

The irony is that the use of the vernacular - a move, no doubt made in part for the reason of uniting the Church throughout the world - divided it. No longer is the Mass understandable at all places at all times, it has become (intentionally or not) a cultural thing, understood only by those of the culture who speak that particular language and those who learn it.
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I don’t mean any offense, but you just made the anti- argument of what their argument is. They don’t want Latin because they feel excluded, you want Latin becuae you feel excluded if its not Latin. So why should they feel the way you feel if you don’t want to feel the way they feel? Why should they or anyone accept your stance and reject theirs?

We have to respect other people’s opinion on this matter. What works for you doesn’t work for all. We should be happy and praise God that our Church cares enough to accomodate the needs of people.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I don’t mean any offense, but you just made the anti- argument of what their argument is. They don’t want Latin because they feel excluded, you want Latin becuae you feel excluded if its not Latin. So why should they feel the way you feel if you don’t want to feel the way they feel? Why should they or anyone accept your stance and reject theirs?

We have to respect other people’s opinion on this matter. What works for you doesn’t work for all. We should be happy and praise God that our Church cares enough to accomodate the needs of people.
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The Catholic Mass…whether prayed in the vernaculuar or in Latin is not about exclusion or inclusion by other people. Nor does it really matter what opinion anyone has. The Mass is the Mass, even when noone but the priest is present. The Mass does not need us to be effective. The Mass is Calvary.

"The most sublime act in the history of Christ was His Death. Death is always important for it seals a destiny. Any dying man is a scene. Any dying scene is a sacred place. That is why the great literature of the past which has touched on the emotions surrounding death has never passed out of date. But of all deaths in the record of man, none was more important than the Death of Christ. Everyone else, who was ever born into the world, came into it to live; our Lord came into it to die.

"Death was the crown to the life of Christ. He Himself told us that He came “to give his life redemption for many”; that no one could take away His Life; but He would lay it down of Himself.

“If then Death was the supreme moment for which Christ lived, it was therefore the one thing He wished to have remembered. He did not ask that men should write down His Words into a Scripture; He did not ask that His kindness to the poor should be recorded in history; but He did ask that men remember His Death. And in order that its memory might not be any haphazard narrative on the part of men, He Himself instituted the precise way it should be recalled.”

catholicprimer.org/home/worship/calvary_and_the_mass/1

If you cannot “remember His death”, unless it’s prayed in a certain language…that is your business. But PLEASE, realize that many of us can do so , no matter what the language is.
 
CradleCath said:
I am shocked at the number of people on these fora that allow themselves to be threatened by a language. There are a number of people here who don’t even care enough to experience a Mass that is obviously sanctioned by the Pope, if not favored by him. What would you all do if you had to spend a year in another country. What if you had been stationed in Germany during the occupation, what would you have done? Just skipped Mass for a couple of years? What if you had the opportunity to spend a year in France as a student?

As far as I’m concerned, if the language of the Mass of the Ages is what is keeping you from praying this Mass (& I have doubts about that), which is part of your culture & your heritage…well, that’s just pure laziness. The Seven Deadly Sins are:
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
**Sloth **
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Sloth is defined as spiritual or emotional apathy, neglecting what God has spoken, and being physically, mentally and emotionally inactive.

Sloth can also indicate a wasting due to lack of use, concerning a person, place, thing, skill, or intangible ideal that would require maintenance, refinement, or support to continue to exist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth_(deadly_sin)#Definition

Those who would let such a small intellectual challenge…learning to follow the priest’s Latin prayers by using an English/Latin missal… keep themselves from experiencing the WHOLE of their faith, I just don’t know how to relate to such people. There’s no excuse for not even trying.
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Seriously folks…I know for me…I don’t think its SLOTH…I’m busy enough right now just trying to learn my faith! Have you seen the size of the Cathecism? Try working through that with daily Mass, scripture study, RCIA, and working full time! Now you want me to learn Latin too??? :banghead::banghead:

Not everybody is on the same path…geez. I just enjoy that I can go to Mass and get it in English…right now. It’s what draws me to keep moving ahead and is what drew me back to Catholism when I seriously never thought I would come back.

Maybe I’ll want to learn in a couple of years but right now…plate…full:D

Lets please stop making assumptions about everyone.
 
They don’t want Latin because they feel excluded, you want Latin becuae you feel excluded if its not Latin. So why should they feel the way you feel if you don’t want to feel the way they feel? Why should they or anyone accept your stance and reject theirs?
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Sounds as if some would be happier in a more isolated and exclusionary Church. I don’t think the Vatican likes that trend.

Language is important. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

We’d like to believe what the Church believes. If they say “consubstantialem Patri,” that’s what I’ll believe, whether I understand it fully or not.
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Seriously folks…I know for me…I don’t think its SLOTH…I’m busy enough right now just trying to learn my faith! Have you seen the size of the Cathecism? Try working through that with daily Mass, scripture study, RCIA, and working full time! Now you want me to learn Latin too??? :banghead::banghead:

Not everybody is on the same path…geez. I just enjoy that I can go to Mass and get it in English…right now. It’s what draws me to keep moving ahead and is what drew me back to Catholism when I seriously never thought I would come back.

Maybe I’ll want to learn in a couple of years but right now…plate…full:D

Lets please stop making assumptions about everyone.
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ONE MORE TIME:
One does not need to “learn Latin” to pray the TLM. We have Latin to English translations:

fordham.edu/halsall/basis/latinmass2.html

However, since you are in RCIA, I’d just say perhaps the TLM. will be right for you in time. Just don’t let the “naysayers” make you think that it’s “so hard”. It’s not. Go to the Mass you’ve been attending for now & God bless you!!!
 
Now you want me to learn Latin too???
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Many didn’t “learn” Latin in the pre-V2 days in the way you think. But at least they were exposed to Latin and that was enough to enable them to recognize it as a Catholic Mass. They learned catechism separately. But either way, reinforcing the vernacular can’t be of much help in order to understand the Latin truths in the Mass.
 
ProVobis said:
Sounds as if some would be happier in a more isolated and exclusionary Church. I don’t think the Vatican likes that trend.

Language is important. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

We’d like to believe what the Church believes. If they say “consubstantialem Patri,” that’s what I’ll believe, whether I understand it fully or not.
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Is having 6 Rites exclusionary? Are you saying the entire Church should have one Rite, one tradition?

Different languages are not exclusionary. If that is what God intended, then the people would have understood Aramaic or Greek during Pentecost, not the other way around.
 
Re: Your signature: A traditionalist can be a good catholic, but a modernist can’t, modernism being defined as a heresy by the Church.

Why keep using the other rites in this argument and this sub-forum? We’re talking about the Roman Catholic Church and its retention of Latin.
 
Layman said:
Re: Your signature: A traditionalist can be a good catholic, but a modernist can’t, modernism being defined as a heresy by the Church.
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That is why I said I an NOT a modernist nor a traditionalist. I follow what the Church teaches right here, right now.
Layman said:
Why keep using the other rites in this argument and this sub-forum? We’re talking about the Roman Catholic Church and its retention of Latin.
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Because in my opinion there’s a lot of narrow-mindedness going on because we only see the Church as the Roman Church, therefore we think that everyone should have the same and one culture throughout the world. Its the same American cowboy attitude of, “America is the best country in the world. Everyone should be American.” The same is now being applied to Catholicism, “we’re Roman Catholics. Everyone should be Roman Catholics the way I am Roman Catholic.” If we realize that the Catholic Church is larger than Roman Catholicism, then we understand why different cultues have different needs, that even the Roman Church itself is different in every country around the world. The Church is founded on one faith, not one language, not one tradition, one faith. We shouldn’t forget that. And if we don’t look past our own Roman Church, we miss that important aspect of our faith. We are not universal because everyone speaks Latin, we are universal because there are different languages and different cultures in our Church, all professing to the same Christ who is God, incarnate into man, died on the cross and resurrected and ascended into heaven from hence He shall come again to judge all.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Its the same American cowboy attitude of, “America is the best country in the world. Everyone should be American.” The same is now being applied to Catholicism, “we’re Roman Catholics. Everyone should be Roman Catholics the way I am Roman Catholic.” If we realize that the Catholic Church is larger than Roman Catholicism, then we understand why different cultues have different needs, that even the Roman Church itself is different in every country around the world.
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That’s right. It’s like when people argue about the “four marks of the Church” and the vital importance of being universal, and then they get perplexed and frustrated when you mention the other parts of our universal church. The very existence of the Eastern Catholic churches is such an utter demolition of the repeated claim that “when we all spoke Latin, the liturgy was universal,” that they’d really rather not discuss it. (“We must be truly universal! But please stop mentioning the Eastern rites in my presence; go to the Eastern forum for that.” :rolleyes:) When you get reactions like that, you know people are starting to get frightened by something.
 
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