M
mark_a
Guest
As a regular Joe 12pack, I am not crazy about latin, but would never even consider complaining about it to the priest or anyone else.
But what’s the problem w/ chant and incense???
- Status
But what’s the problem w/ chant and incense???
O
Ockham
Guest
Examples?
O
Ockham
Guest
Examples?
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Because what I fight for is acceptance of what is. See, if you argue against something like CITH, you are proposing for a change that any of us here cannot do anything about. When I argue for accepting CITH, it is already the law of the Church today. No change is needed from the Church, just in the hearts of men. And that we can change.
On the other hand, the priest from Ghana has pastoral responsibilities in his own land and he could better serve them in their own language. Why worry about saying Mass in New York when he has his own flock to tend to in Ghana? Besides, Ghana is a former UK colony, people there speak English. My former boss if from Ghana, pretty cool guy.
L
Layman
Guest
Sure we can. We can a) Attend the TLM, where CITH doesn’t exist and b) Ask our priests to set up the means to have COTT, kneeling at the O.F., if they don’t exist and c) Debate it.
Now, you’re just blathering.
O
Ockham
Guest
That’s a nice tie in to another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=496423
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Go back and read post #50. I don’t have time to learn Latin too! And a lot of people don’t.
So basically…your way or the highway? Do you perhaps wonder why there is hostility towards Latin? Probably not.
O
Ockham
Guest
There’s really not much to learn. If you get yourself a missal or borrow one that’s provided at most EF Masses it’s pretty easy to figure things out. You can count on the Mass being the same every week so there are no surprises. You can also rest assured no liturgical novelties like dancing pantamines or guest homilists will complicate matters.
The Mass is a prayer itself. If you follow along in the missal you are actually praying the Mass. The OF has the congregation say aloud a few of the prayers but in the EF with a missal you can say the entire Mass, thus an increased amount of ‘active participation.’
The Mass is a prayer itself. If you follow along in the missal you are actually praying the Mass. The OF has the congregation say aloud a few of the prayers but in the EF with a missal you can say the entire Mass, thus an increased amount of ‘active participation.’
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
These things are already banned from OF masses. And yet they happen. So what do you think will prevent these same people from not abusing the EF?
There’s nothing that prevents one from saying the entire OF Mass to one’s person. I do that sometimes, even make my own homily
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Sure, thats always an option. Though not everyone is comfortable with it. What of those who prefer the OF?
But that would be disobedient to the GIRM which establishes that standing is the norm for receiving in the US
woohoo!!!
Aw. But people in Ghana do know how to speak english, so your example fails because a priest from Ghana can say Mass in New York and be understood.
O
Ockham
Guest
Of course that’s against the GIRM.even make my own homily
Can you provide evidence of liturgical dancing and non priest/decon sermons at an EF? I can show examples in the OF.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Only if I go up to the ambo and preach it. GIRM doesn’t say anything about me telling something to myself.
You missed the point. If the TLM is the norm, then these same abusers would be abusing the TLM. Where else would they be? Its happening in the OF today because 90% of Masses are in the OF. Those who are in the TLM are only those who are interested in preserving liturgical traditions.
O
Ockham
Guest
How often do you ignore the priest and give a sermon to yourself?
I did? Can you provide evidence of liturgical dancing in the Latin Rite prior to the Novus Ordo?
Preserving liturgical traditions should be everyone’s cause, not just those attending the EF.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
How is this related to the thread?
I agree. I know OF priests who are very traditional and orthodox. We’re just playing by the numbers here. The sheer number of OF priests means the bad ones are likely there. And why would the abusive priests want to say the EF today? They know they’ll be dragged away from the altar by their heels if they do that.
C
CradleCath
Guest
This is getting ridiculous. I looked up your statistics, Constantine, & you are averaging 32 posts per day. The last 60 POSTS have concerned your dislike of the use of Latin in the Mass. You do not really mention the prayers of the TLM., the ad Orientum position of the priest, the theology of Sacrifice that IS the TLM…just the language. How can a person hold such hostility toward a language.
If you do not want to attend a Mass that includes Latin, then don’t. If you are happy in your Eastern faith, I’m glad for you. If it is important to you for the Masses in the Phillipines to include the native culture, fine. But, to come onto the Traditional Catholic forum & debase the language of our Traditional Latin Mass, day after day…that isn’t right.
O
Ockham
Guest
The thread? Not much. You said you often make up your own sermon and I’m asking how often that happens.
Good for you. Will you answer the questions now.
Making 1500 posts in six weeks may jeopardize quality for quantity, but out of respect for your fellow Catholics on this forum could you please answer direct questions?
A
Acolythus_sum
Guest
@Constantine_TG: You just said you sometimes preach to yourself. So, you brought it up.
You should know that the Ghana example was just that…an example! It could be China, or any other country. The point still stands. The TLM was the same, everywhere.
You should know that the Ghana example was just that…an example! It could be China, or any other country. The point still stands. The TLM was the same, everywhere.
J
JReducation
Guest
I’m of the opinion that this whole thread is bordering on the silly. I’ve been reading it with interest, because I do like the Latin language and I do like the prayers in Latin.
That being said, I don’t believe that it is the desire of the Holy See to impose the Latin language on the faithful. The Church has been very clear about keeping the Latin language as the official language of the Roman Rite. But she has not said that it must be the only language of the Roman Rite.
To argue that it should be the only language of the Roman Rite is a futile argument at this point in time. The arguments of the laity carry very little weight in the Vatican, especially on an internet forum.
The Vatican has heard the feelings of the laity and has already made all the accommodations to cover as many people as possible. She has reinstated the Tridentine Form as the Extraordinary Form, which means just what the word “extraordinary” says. It’s not the official form of the Roman Rite. However, it is appreciated, venerated and held in high esteem. She allows for the Ordinary Form to be celebrated in Latin by those who wish to do so. She allows for the use of national languages where it is desired.
Good grief folks, with all of these accommodations, why is the use of the Latin language an issue?
I just came back from teaching a middle school religious education class where I teach my students the common prayers in Latin, English, Spanish and Creole. I explained to a group of sixth-graders that I wanted them to learn the prayers in these languages so that they could recognize them when they hear them. The kids asked if they had to pray in Latin. I told them that they did not. All I want of them is to recognize them when they hear them. Once I said that, the kids eagerly engaged in the exercise. Tonight we learned the Sign of the Cross and the Lord’s Prayer in Latin and the three modern languages used in our diocese. The kids were happy with that.
If sixth-graders can be happy with the choice, as long as they have the choice, why can’t adults do the same? The anguish here is beyond me.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
That being said, I don’t believe that it is the desire of the Holy See to impose the Latin language on the faithful. The Church has been very clear about keeping the Latin language as the official language of the Roman Rite. But she has not said that it must be the only language of the Roman Rite.
To argue that it should be the only language of the Roman Rite is a futile argument at this point in time. The arguments of the laity carry very little weight in the Vatican, especially on an internet forum.
The Vatican has heard the feelings of the laity and has already made all the accommodations to cover as many people as possible. She has reinstated the Tridentine Form as the Extraordinary Form, which means just what the word “extraordinary” says. It’s not the official form of the Roman Rite. However, it is appreciated, venerated and held in high esteem. She allows for the Ordinary Form to be celebrated in Latin by those who wish to do so. She allows for the use of national languages where it is desired.
Good grief folks, with all of these accommodations, why is the use of the Latin language an issue?
I just came back from teaching a middle school religious education class where I teach my students the common prayers in Latin, English, Spanish and Creole. I explained to a group of sixth-graders that I wanted them to learn the prayers in these languages so that they could recognize them when they hear them. The kids asked if they had to pray in Latin. I told them that they did not. All I want of them is to recognize them when they hear them. Once I said that, the kids eagerly engaged in the exercise. Tonight we learned the Sign of the Cross and the Lord’s Prayer in Latin and the three modern languages used in our diocese. The kids were happy with that.
If sixth-graders can be happy with the choice, as long as they have the choice, why can’t adults do the same? The anguish here is beyond me.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
P
ProVobis
Guest
I’ve only had one year of college psychology but I’m guessing kids don’t carry the baggage which adults have carried all their lives and have not learned what they’re “supposed” to dislike. That’s the way some of us are programmed. I agree with you that negativity towards the language of the Church, be it Latin or Greek, doesn’t make sense, especially if we love that Church and want to fully understand the faith. I’ve even heard Protestant ministers on radio analyzing the Latin passages in Scriptures to explain the gospels.
Negativity towards Mandarin or Spanish or English is not good either but it does make sense if it threatens you in your neighborhood or your job. Kids are probably too young to feel threatened in such ways. It might even explain why there are so many younger people in attendance at the TLM as well. Just my opinion.
U
utah_rose
Guest
We have two NOR Masses and two Spanish Masses. However we have 3 priests and the TLM Mass we sometimes attend has 2 NOR Masses and a TLM Mass on Sunday AND Saturday morning, with only one priest. To me that shows a lot of dedication.You would think so…won’t you? If traditionalist want there not to be a biasis against the TLM or a Latin phobia if you will…won’t it make more sense not to be hostile?
To me…on one side is people like this rather rude lady who yells during Massand on the other side is people who are like Latin all the time/TLM all the time. If it’s a little bit of Latin its not enough…people are too lazy to learn Latin…etc. Isn’t there some middle ground? It just seems like lines get drawn in the sand. I highly doubt that this is what the Pope intends.
I for one…won’t mind a little bit of Latin here and there…as long as someone can say what it means…or it replaces something in the NO that I know what it means. Someone here posted something in Latin but wouldn’t translate. I’m not going to go look it up. And people will say I’m too lazy or I don’t care enough about God. This is what drives people into a Latin phobia…although nothing excuses that ladys rudeness.
As far as priests and bishops having a biasis against the TLM…well I know in my parish…where would we fit it in? We have 2 Sunday NO Masses that are full and one spanish speaking Mass–also full—really standing room only kind of full. We don’t have another priest so where would the TLM come in? Maybe at another parish in town that has more then one priest…but there are 3 with one priest only.
- Status