Hours in the public swimming pool for women only

[Allegra]

Are you under the shock when you are going to visit a church where there are many naked bodies on the paintings?

There are a diffirence between erotism and pornography. By definition, pornography is per se sinful and objectively sinful.

But, erotism is diffrent. Per se, it is okay, but in circonstanciis, it can be wrong. The problem is to define the conditions when it is wrong. There is a natural and good erotism, and a bad and sinful erotism.

The conditions in which a person purposefully seeks garments in which to expose themself as much as possible so that strangers can view as much of their private areas as can legally be permitted is, in my opinion, a form of sinful eroticism. (and particularly sinful since no one asked to see their business in the first place.)

 

[Kouyate42]

snip
An earlier poster was correct: this whole issue does, in fact, only work one way.

Same here- there’s even women-only insurance companies here in addition to the other women-only facilities such as gyms, clinics/hospitals etc. There’s even a local nightclub which offers a women-only nightclub night and a fitness club which has women-only classes and clubs.

I am not sure of the laws in the UK (or in France), but I am pretty sure that in the US, a “women’s only” swim time would need to be counterbalanced with a “men’s only” swim time, if the pool were publicly funded. However, getting that balance might require a court challenge.

I don’t mind the idea of a women’s only swim time. When I was young, our city pool had an adults-only time in which all the kids would have to vacate the pool for a period of time. It was annoying, primarily because we couldn’t leave the pool building without re-paying admission and we wanted to spend all afternoon there.

As for a men’s only pool time, I am not sure how popular that might be. Women may prefer to be alone due to modesty issues. I am not sure that is such a big concern to men.

It’s not a modesty issue alone, but a gender issue. If you give something to one gender, you have to redress the balance or it is a one-way system. In this country, there are thousands of women-only groups, clubs and facilities, where no-one bats an eyelid. But traditionally male-only facilities and groups have increasingly come under fire for ‘sexism’. This includes social clubs, sporting clubs, the Scouts and even the Chelsea Pensioners.

 

[fpt]

Personally, modesty has become a big issue for me. God has led me to change how I dress completely. I admire much of the islamic modest wear and have even checked out some links for modest swimwear. Catholics should have a love of modesty in common with Muslims.

On the beach, in the public swimming pool, in the private pool with family and or friends, is it objectively sinful for a woman to wear bikini (two piece)? What are the conditions in which wearing bikini would be sinful? Per se no sinful

On the beach, in the public swimming pool, in the private pool with family and or friends, is it, objectively or in circonstanciis, sinful for a woman to wear one piece? Per se no sinful

On the beach, in the public swimming pool, in the private pool with family and or friends, is it, objectively or in circonstanciis, sinful for a woman to wear one piece swimwear? Per se no sinful

On the beach, in the public swimming pool, in the private pool with family and or friends, is it, objectively or in circonstanciis, sinful for a woman to wear tankini? Per se no sinful

On the beach, in the public swimming pool, in the private pool with family and or friends, is it, objectively or in circonstanciis, sinful for a woman to wear skirtini? Per se no sinful

It is my humble opinion. I know some catholic lay persons and some priests are not okay with my view. Casuistry is the rule. It is a debate.

I guess and I am sure that for true muslim women all these situations are objectively sinful if there are men. The problem with islam is from the definition of the human nature, the links between males and females.

For islam (the doxa) men and women are not equal in dignity, and the natural equity is not. In the coran, there is a supremacy of men on women.

In conclusion, as catholic I cannot be okay with the intellectual approaches (doxa) and the practical life on how to dress up for men and women. By principle, If i understand well my religion, there are fundamental incompatibilities between catholicism and Islam. For me, it is impossible to be okay.

Modesty okay, but only with the true approach of christian message without many ideologies (philosophies) or heresies (christian theologies), or rigorist practices.

Are you okay with the concept of muslim modesty? Like catholic, I can not, I do not want, I want to stay with my true christian culture. The big problem is to define the elements? Great challenge. I want my freedom, It is my natural right. The muslim concepts have not to influence in the ancient christian countries.

Okay, times only for women, but it is exeption and it must stay like that.

 

[PatriceA]

According to my informations, Orthodox Jews have not asked.

But what if it was a group of Orthodox Jewish women that had asked instead, would you feel the same way? What if it was a group of Catholic women that asked for a “women only” pool session? Or a nondenominational Christian group? Or even a group of atheist women? Would you feel the same way as you do or would you feel differently than you do about the Muslim women asking?

You still haven’t answered if the Muslim women are asking for a special session for just Muslim women or just women, regardless of any religious affiliation. That distinction makes the difference in this discussion.

I do not find their request particularly odd. There are a few pools around my area that do offer sessions for just men and just women. Again, in this examples, its all a modesty issue, not a religious issue at all.

 

[fpt]

But what if it was a group of Orthodox Jewish women that had asked instead, would you feel the same way? What if it was a group of Catholic women that asked for a “women only” pool session? Or a nondenominational Christian group? Or even a group of atheist women? Would you feel the same way as you do or would you feel differently than you do about the Muslim women asking?

You still haven’t answered if the Muslim women are asking for a special session for just Muslim women or just women, regardless of any religious affiliation. That distinction makes the difference in this discussion.

I do not find their request particularly odd. There are a few pools around my area that do offer sessions for just men and just women. Again, in this examples, its all a modesty issue, not a religious issue at all.

But what if it was a group of Orthodox Jewish women that had asked instead, would you feel the same way? What if it was a group of Catholic women that asked for a “women only” pool session? Or a nondenominational Christian group? Or even a group of atheist women? Would you feel the same way as you do or would you feel differently than you do about the Muslim women asking?

My respond is in function of the external intention. If it is only for modesty, why not in the public swimming pool, if this exception stays an exception, and whatever the religion or the believe of persons who ask.

The problem with Islam or Orthodox Jewish persons is that by definition for them there is an unity between spiritual power, temporal power, social power, juridical power, then the primauty of group on the person. No sepration of powers and thus all is religious per se, all is politic per se, all is social per se, all is collective per se. In addition, it is an identity revendication. Let’s not be naive, let’s be very prudent.

You still haven’t answered if the Muslim women are asking for a special session for just Muslim women or just women, regardless of any religious affiliation. That distinction makes the difference in this discussion.

The asking is done by muslim women and/or muslim’s cultual groups for getting sessions of swimming pool only for women whatever the religion. That is not an asking for muslim sessions of women.

If the asking was only for muslim women, it would be so weird, even dangerous. Fortunately, not, I say not yet. With Islam, we must be prudent and not naive.

I do not find their request particularly odd. There are a few pools around my area that do offer sessions for just men and just women. Again, in this examples, its all a modesty issue, not a religious issue at all.

Muslim’s definition and muslim’s practice of modesty , jewish’s definition and jewish’s practice of modesty, and christian’s definition and christian’s practice of modesty, then catholic’s definition and catholic’s practice of modesty seem to be very different. There are many incompatibilities concerning those doctrines and the practice of those doctrines.

I am sure the in this women’s session with muslim women or orthodox Jewish women, the christian women would be probably bad view directly or indirectly if they were in bikini. I guess, I am so sur. May be, I make a trial of intention???

 

[fpt]

Do you think the excessive modesty be identical than true immodesty? For me, it is yes.

The great issue is to define abusive and excessive modesty between males and females???

 

[Corki]

Do you think the excessive modesty be identical than true immodesty? For me, it is yes.

The great issue is to define abusive and excessive modesty between males and females???

What is excessive modesty?

 

[fpt]

What is excessive modesty?

That is the question??? It is very difficult. It is only casuistry. And the same for immodesty.

If you are against the bikini on the beach, per se, you are, in my humble point of view on the bad analysis concerning the capacity to understand what is the true modest attitude. I know, many “devout” catholics say no, ever my wife, my daugther will wear bikini, because it is a mortal sin per se. For me, that is stupid, it is a offence to human nature and the human intelligence. If people are not capable to see a body of woman without lust, men are too much crazy. I do not want to be like that.

I know some catholic do not go to the beach because it is sinful, bad boys and girls. Too many naked bodies, it is ridiculous.

Wearing clothe is function of place, of temperature, of climate, of activities, of jobs, of personnal motivations, of personnal liberty. Per se there is no obligation to say it is bad to wear mini skirt or bikini on the beach, in the private swimming pool, in the street.

Okay, no bikini in the church of course, Do you know the minimum of centimeters of skirt for being okay ??? This question is, per se, objectively curious?

The muslim modesty is not a good example, it is not a good model.

I want to have a nice relationship with women who are around me without saying to me. She is decent or indecent??? Stop, we are in 2012. Okay, there are excessive dresses, excessive skirts, abusive swimwears…etc.

Catholic lay persons very devout are often too much ism’s word. The problem is than is easer to say it is immodest than saying this attitude is prudish, jansenist, puritan, thus bad and wrong.

When I am in the street and I saw muslim women I am shocking because it is an offence to the female nature. We see nothing. No face, no hair, no breast, nothing. A man could wear those stuffs. They are not sexed person. It is sad.

I know, I am so direct and rude, sorry sorry. I want to be free without sad and unatural doctrine like islam. Islam is not so natural.

I do not want to be a victorian or puritan catholic, I want to be free.

 

[fpt]

I am sure that there is a big link between the rigorist points of view of catholics on modesty and the strange points of view of catholic on marital act in the couple (all is almost sinful, masturbation is everywhere in the marital act if one spouse use its fingers, its lips…). People, who have an obession with that, are so…etc; I cannot find the relevant words.

 

[Corki]

I know many young girls, teens and pre-teens, who would never wear a two piece bathing suit in mixed company without putting a shirt over it. For them, that amount of exposure, and the resulting reaction from the boys present is enough to make them uncomfortable.

My kids used to swim on a swim team and there were a few girls who would wear a unitard under thier team swim suit because they didn’t care for the skimpy cut of the Speedo that was the uniform suit.

Would you call that excessively modest? Maybe in France, but not in the US.

 

[fpt]

I know many young girls, teens and pre-teens, who would never wear a two piece bathing suit in mixed company without putting a shirt over it. For them, that amount of exposure, and the resulting reaction from the boys present is enough to make them uncomfortable.

My kids used to swim on a swim team and there were a few girls who would wear a unitard under thier team swim suit because they didn’t care for the skimpy cut of the Speedo that was the uniform suit.

Would you call that excessively modest? Maybe in France, but not in the US.

When I write on this topic, in general, I explain my thought to adults and for the adults.

For kids, for young girls, pre-teens and teenagers, that is different. They are educated, thus during sportive education, I understand the special session for girls teens. I am totaly okay.

There is a difference between, swimming pool for sport and swimming pool for leasures, water play games.

In general when you are on the beach with friends and family (adults, teenagers, pre-teens, kids, babies) are you very shocked by normal bikinis, not mini, not too small?

For muslim persons or some catholics say "go to the beach and stay with friends in swimwear " seem be, per se, a bad behavior, to be a sin because around you there are many bad girls in bikinis (for muslims there are b … or harlot, slang and vulgar words).

A catholic woman can wear a binkini without being treat of S… H… W… B… you can imagine the bad words.

 

[mitex]

Why can’t men and women swim together?!

Oh wait because women will throw themselves promiscuously at our males ruining the practice of arranged marriages!

 

[Corki]

Why can’t men and women swim together?!

Oh wait because women will throw themselves promiscuously at our males ruining the practice of arranged marriages!

Of course they can swim together. The question is IF they want some single sex pool time, should they be allowed to ask for it?

 

[fpt]

In summary:

Bikini, per se, is not a sin on the beach, on public swimming pool, water play game area.

Women who wear this type of clothe are not harlot, whore… For muslim males and muslim women these female are like that. Sometime, the same speech from catholic wifes or catholic husbands. It is so sad.

Muslims would like to ban bikini and to force women to wear the veil. That is a problem for me.

Otherwise, I am okay for give special session for women in the public swimming pool if it is an exception and not the principle.

 

[Corki]

When I write on this topic, in general, I explain my thought to adults and for the adults.

For kids, for young girls, pre-teens and teenagers, that is different. They are educated, thus during sportive education, I understand the special session for girls teens. I am totaly okay.

There is a difference between, swimming pool for sport and swimming pool for leasures, water play games.

By “sportive education” do you mean school swimming classes. I wasn’t talking about that at all. I was talking about swimming at friends’ homes or neighborhood pools.

In general when you are on the beach with friends and family (adults, teenagers, pre-teens, kids, babies) are you very shocked by normal bikinis, not mini, not too small?

It’s not a question of what shocks me. Modesty is about what **I **would want to wear - how much **I **would want to expose and to whom.

A catholic woman can wear a binkini without being treat of S… H… W… B… you can imagine the bad words

No, I can’t imagine what words you are trying to use - nor do I want to. But, again, modesty isn’t about what other people think. It’s about what the woman wants for her own comfort and enjoyment.

 

[fpt]

Each person is free to wear different types of swimwear in public swimming pool.
But some types (too much prudish or too much liberal are bad, because it is a form of proselytism).

Sorry, but modesty, for me was, your definition " modesty isn’t about what other people think. It’s about what the woman wants for her own comfort and enjoyment ".

And the effects of the other people, and principally on males. For muslim women in France, it is the more important thing. For instance, if women in the swimming pool wearing a one piece in the swimming pool with males, for most of muslim males or females it is bad. By principle, they are against mixity of genders in the public areas like beach…etc.

 

[VivienneJ]

As an older woman, who swims for exercise, I can tell you that I only swim at pools that are women only or else I wear knee length shorts over my one piece costume if I’m at an “open” pool. And both choices are made for my comfort and sense of modesty, not imposed by anyone else.

 

[fpt]

Question:

For instance, if a friend says to you , I invite you to my house in my private swimming pool with friends of mine, but you cannot wear bikini because, per se, it is shocking, what is your reaction? You go and obey, you go and don’t obey and you wait his reaction, or you stay in your home?

 

[Corki]

Question:

For instance, if a friend says to you , I invite you to my house in my private swimming pool with friends of mine, but you cannot wear bikini because, per se, it is shocking, what is your reaction? You go and obey, you go and don’t obey and you wait his reaction, or you stay in your home?

But this is not the topic of this thread. No one is telling these women they can’t swim with men or that they can’t wear a bathing suit. They are requesting this.

For instance, if you do not feel comfortable wearing your swim suit in mixed company and a friend invites you to come over to swim, what do you do? Do you go and put on a bikini anyway since it will make your friend happy, do you go and wear a more modest swim suit even though it makes you slightly uncomfortable, do you go and wear a nice dress and refrain from swimming or do you stay home?

 

[Corki]

As an older woman, who swims for exercise, I can tell you that I only swim at pools that are women only or else I wear knee length shorts over my one piece costume if I’m at an “open” pool. And both choices are made for my comfort and sense of modesty, not imposed by anyone else.