How allowing evil could lead to greater good?

[goout]

…
Evils provide the material for the expression of the virtues of the just.

I’m not sure I agree with that.

ARTICLE 7
THE VIRTUES

[1803] "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."62

A virtue is an habitual and firm disposition to do the good. It allows the person not only to perform good acts, but to give the best of himself. The virtuous person tends toward the good with all his sensory and spiritual powers; he pursues the good and chooses it in concrete actions.

The goal of a virtuous life is to become like God.63

I. THE HUMAN VIRTUES

[1804] Human virtues are firm attitudes, stable dispositions, habitual perfections of intellect and will that govern our actions, order our passions, and guide our conduct according to reason and faith. They make possible ease, self-mastery, and joy in leading a morally good life. The virtuous man is he who freely practices the good.

The moral virtues are acquired by human effort. They are the fruit and seed of morally good acts; they dispose all the powers of the human being for communion with divine love.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Evils provide the material for the expression of the virtues of the just.

What do you mean?

The material as in “What’s the matter?” There is a struggle with evil.

@goout provided the Catechism item 1804 with this:

• The moral virtues are acquired by human effort.

Another Catechism item has:

2516 Because man is a composite being, spirit and body , there already exists a certain tension in him; a certain struggle of tendencies between “spirit” and “flesh” develops. But in fact this struggle belongs to the heritage of sin. It is a consequence of sin and at the same time a confirmation of it. It is part of the daily experience of the spiritual battle:

For the Apostle it is not a matter of despising and condemning the body which with the spiritual soul constitutes man’s nature and personal subjectivity. Rather, he is concerned with the morally good or bad works, or better, the permanent dispositions - virtues and vices - which are the fruit of submission (in the first case) or of resistance (in the second case) to the saving action of the Holy Spirit . For this reason the Apostle writes: "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."304

 

[STT]

I can accept all these things but that doesn’t resolve the problem, no good comes out of evil.

 

[Vico]

I can accept all these things but that doesn’t resolve the problem, no good comes out of evil.

If there was no free will then there would be no heaven and Beatific Vision, which requires the expression of love of God and love is something that must be free by definition. Evil is possible with free will as well as charity.

Catechism

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. …

 

[goout]

I can accept all these things but that doesn’t resolve the problem, no good comes out of evil.

The answer is “redemption”. Evil, per se, does not create good, or promote good.
Evil is taken up by Christ and redeemed. Christ “drinks the whole cup”, to the dregs. By his participation in the whole of our existence, Christ redeems evil that it might serve the good.
By our participation in Christ’s redemption, we are also changed. We repent. Repentance is a turning away, a turning around, a change in our ways of thinking literally, and a change in our way of behaving.

" I was once this way, but in Christ I am a new creation". That is the heart of the Good News.

Seeds grow in manure.

We can know this naturally in our human relations.
The best of friends can be formed when disputes between people are handled in a redemptive way. Two people are angry with one another and a dispute arises over some wrong. One person or the other handles the dispute with a redemptive quality, and that redemptive quality brings about a change of heart in the other. A strong bond can then be formed.

I do retail currently and we have a saying " A dispute with a customer is an opportunity to make a solid friend". It depends whether you handle it “in Christ” with a redemptive outlook, or wallow in the dispute.

 

[Jeanne_S]

The good that can come from evil is the conversion of heart ,turning back to or finding God with contrition in ones heart.A person can oftentimes grow in goodness after experiencing the sorrow that doing evil brings,

 

[goout]

Right. The problem with the problem of evil is that we don’t have a problem with the good.
We do one sided accounting with God.

 

[STT]

The answer is “redemption”.

So, God allows evil to redeem afterward? How about those who go to Hell? What was wrong with creating us in Heaven?

Evil, per se, does not create good, or promote good.

That is what I want to hear.

 

[goout]

goout:

The answer is “redemption”.

So, God allows evil to redeem afterward? How about those who go to Hell? What was wrong with creating us in Heaven?

“Creating us in heaven” is force, not love. If by that you mean creating us with no opportunity to choose.
Love only exists in freedom. No freedom = no love is possible.

You can know this naturally by your own human relations. It is good to love. We don’t always do it perfectly. One of the consequences of the abuse of freedom is divorce and separation from one another. I am not using divorce merely in the technical way in regard to marriage, but rather as a description of separation.

 

[STT]

“Creating us in heaven” is force, not love.

It is not a force when it is compared by staying in Hell for all eternity. In fact I would love it. Wouldn’t you?

 

[goout]

goout:

“Creating us in heaven” is force, not love.

It is not a force when it is compared by staying in Hell for all eternity. In fact I would love it. Wouldn’t you?

No I wouldn’t.
It would be akin to marrying one of those inflatable dolls.

You don’t understand the relationship between freedom and love.
And freedom and responsibility.

 

[goout]

The vision of your god is of one that creates a child and imprisons the child in it’s room so that it might not make bad choices.

And that child will never know how to love. It will never develop the interior capacity to choose well and flourish.
It will be stunted and dehumanized.

 

[STT]

No I wouldn’t.

I cannot understand you. You never choose Hell over Heaven. No rational being does. So what is the point of giving us the freedom to choose?

It would be akin to marrying one of those inflatable dolls.

I don’t think so. You are still free in Heaven to choose to do different things. You just cannot sin because of beatific vision.

You don’t understand the relationship between freedom and love.

I understand things well. In fact the free will to me is absurd when it comes to choosing Hell. We are also naturally created to love. So to me it freedom to choose between Heaven and Hell doesn’t make any sense at all.

And freedom and responsibility.

That is a valid point from you but it doesn’t resolve the problem of choosing Hell over Heaven.

 

[goout]

So you have never done anything in your life that injured another person and disrupted the relationship.
I find that hard to believe.

 

[Vico]

Right. The problem with the problem of evil is that we don’t have a problem with the good.
We do one sided accounting with God.

We are completely responsible for our condemnation and partly responsible for our salvation due to making a free will choice. God is not the cause of moral evil.

 

[STT]

If there was no free will then there would be no heaven and Beatific Vision, which requires the expression of love of God and love is something that must be free by definition. Evil is possible with free will as well as charity.

The bold part is not correct. You can have free will and have beatific vision. You are in fact free in Heaven.

 

[STT]

So you have never done anything in your life that injured another person and disrupted the relationship.
I find that hard to believe.

I hurt people in my life but not intentionally. We all do mistakes.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

If there was no free will then there would be no heaven and Beatific Vision, which requires the expression of love of God and love is something that must be free by definition. Evil is possible with free will as well as charity.

The bold part is not correct. You can have free will and have beatific vision. You are in fact free in Heaven.

These are not contradictory:

• If there was no free will then there would be no heaven and Beatific Vision
• You can have free will and have beatific vision

 

[STT]

These are not contradictory:

• If there was no free will then there would be no heaven and Beatific Vision
• You can have free will and have beatific vision

Tell me how a rational being can possibly choose Hell over Heaven?

 

[TheLittleLady]

Sometimes good comes in spite of evil, but, evil cannot cause good.

For example, a child conceived in an immoral act. The act is evil. In spite of that evil, the good of a child can result.