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Rolltide
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The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God
Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.
Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.
John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.
Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is “parthenos”) will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.
Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.
Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).
Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.
Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.
Luke 1:38 - Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.
Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.
Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).
Luke 1:44 - Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.
Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.
Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?
Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” This is because “co” is from the Latin word “cum” which means “with.” Therefore, “co-redemptrix” means “woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word “saints” (in Hebrew “qaddiysh”) means “holy” ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.
Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary’s soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus’ suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son’s suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.
Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary’s Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.
Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.
Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.
John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.
Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is “parthenos”) will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.
Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.
Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).
Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.
Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.
Luke 1:38 - Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.
Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.
Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).
Luke 1:44 - Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.
Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.
Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?
Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” This is because “co” is from the Latin word “cum” which means “with.” Therefore, “co-redemptrix” means “woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word “saints” (in Hebrew “qaddiysh”) means “holy” ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.
Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary’s soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus’ suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son’s suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.
Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary’s Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.
R
Rolltide
Guest
Mary as our powerful intercessor (from the Early Church Fathers):
Mary is our Powerful Intercessor
“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).
“Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed.” Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).
“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected… Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin’s body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapor of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest.” Ambrose, On Virginity II:6,18 (A.D. 378).
“Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11 (A.D. 379).
“For it is said that he [Gregory the Wonderworker] heard the one who had appeared in womanly form exhorting John the Evangelist to explain to the young man the mystery of the true faith. John, in his turn, declared that he was completely willing to please the Mother of the Lord even in this matter and this was the one thing closest to his heart. And so the discussion coming to a close, and after they had made it quite clear and precise for him, the two disappeared from his sight.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Gregory the WonderWorker (A.D. 380).
“Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?” Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403).
“Give milk, Mother to him who is our food, give milk to the bread coming down from heaven …give milk to him who made you such that he could be made fruitfulness in conception and in birth, did not take from you the ornament of virginity.” Augustine, Sermon 369:1 (A.D. 430).
“Hail to thee Mary, Mother of God, to whom in towns and villages and in island were founded churches of true believers.” Cyril of Alexandria, Homily 11 (ante A.D. 444).
“Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory…” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3 (ante A.D. 446).
“The Virgin’s festival (parthenike panegyris) incites our tongue today to herald her praise …handmaid and Mother, Virgin and heaven, the only bridge of God to men, the awful loom of the Incarnation, in which by some unspeakable way the garment of that union was woven, whereof the weaver is the Holy Ghost; and the spinner the overshadowing from on high; the wool the ancient fleece of Adam; the woof the undefiled flesh from the virgin, the weaver’s shuttle the immense grace of Him who brought it about; the artificer the Word gliding through the hearing.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (ante A.D. 450).
"O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honorable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son, that we may borne off to heaven and sing with angels to the uncreated, consubstantial Trinity. " Basil of Seleucia, PG 85:452 (ante A.D. 459).
Mary is our Powerful Intercessor
“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).
“Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed.” Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).
“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected… Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin’s body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapor of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest.” Ambrose, On Virginity II:6,18 (A.D. 378).
“Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11 (A.D. 379).
“For it is said that he [Gregory the Wonderworker] heard the one who had appeared in womanly form exhorting John the Evangelist to explain to the young man the mystery of the true faith. John, in his turn, declared that he was completely willing to please the Mother of the Lord even in this matter and this was the one thing closest to his heart. And so the discussion coming to a close, and after they had made it quite clear and precise for him, the two disappeared from his sight.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Gregory the WonderWorker (A.D. 380).
“Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?” Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403).
“Give milk, Mother to him who is our food, give milk to the bread coming down from heaven …give milk to him who made you such that he could be made fruitfulness in conception and in birth, did not take from you the ornament of virginity.” Augustine, Sermon 369:1 (A.D. 430).
“Hail to thee Mary, Mother of God, to whom in towns and villages and in island were founded churches of true believers.” Cyril of Alexandria, Homily 11 (ante A.D. 444).
“Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace; Hail, most venerable memory…” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3 (ante A.D. 446).
“The Virgin’s festival (parthenike panegyris) incites our tongue today to herald her praise …handmaid and Mother, Virgin and heaven, the only bridge of God to men, the awful loom of the Incarnation, in which by some unspeakable way the garment of that union was woven, whereof the weaver is the Holy Ghost; and the spinner the overshadowing from on high; the wool the ancient fleece of Adam; the woof the undefiled flesh from the virgin, the weaver’s shuttle the immense grace of Him who brought it about; the artificer the Word gliding through the hearing.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (ante A.D. 450).
"O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honorable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us. Lead us in peace and having brought us without shame to the throne of judgment, grant us a place at the right hand of your Son, that we may borne off to heaven and sing with angels to the uncreated, consubstantial Trinity. " Basil of Seleucia, PG 85:452 (ante A.D. 459).
R
Rolltide
Guest
continued:
“Cease your laments; I will make myself your advocate in my Son’s presence. Meanwhile, no more sadness, because I have brought joy to the world. For it is to destroy the kingdom of sorrow that I have come into the world: I full of grace … Then curb your tears; accept me as your mediatrix in the presence of him who was born from me, because the author of joy is the God generated before all ages. Remain calm; be troubled no longer: I come from him, full of grace.” Romanos the Singer, On Christmas 2,10-11 (ante A.D. 560).
“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291(ante A.D. 560).
“Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, because thou didst conceive Christ, the Son of God, the Redeemer of our souls.” Coptic Ostraca (A.D. 600).
“Mary the Ever-Virgin – radiant with divine light and full of grace, mediatrix first through her supernatural birth and now because of the intercession of her maternal assistance – be crowned with never ending blessings …seeking balance and fittingness in all things, we should make our way honestly, as sons of light.” Germanus of Constantinople, Homily on the Liberation of Constantinople, 23 (ante A.D. 733).
“O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes Mother of the Creator.” Andrew of Crete, Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity (ante A.D. 740).
“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.” John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 749).
“We today also remain near you, O Lady. Yes, I repeat, O Lady, Mother of God and Virgin. We bind our souls to your hope, as to a most firm and totally unbreakable anchor, consecrating to you mind, soul, body, and all our being and honoring you, as much as we can, with psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles.” John of Damascene, Homily 1 on the Dormition, 14 (ante A.D. 749).
“Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul’s affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance.” Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin, (ante A.D. 778).
“Let us approach with confident spirit the throne of the high Priest, where he is our victim, priest, advocate and judge.” Radbert Paschasius, On the Assumption (ante A.D. 786).
“For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all.” Paul the Deacon, (ante A.D. 799).
“You scatter your favors with still greater abundance since you possess more fully him who is their source and who is entirely willing to give them to us, rather you possess almost everything by yourself and you show largesse to whom you will and to him who begs it of you.” John the Geometer, Life of Mary (A.D. 989).
“May we deserve to have the help of your intercession in heaven, because as the Son of God has deigned to descend to us through you, so we also must come to him with you.” Peter Damian, (ante A.D. 1072).
“The Mother of God is our mother. May the good mother ask and beg for us, may she request and obtain what is good for us.” Anselm, Oration 7(ante A.D. 1109).
“O whoever you may be who feel yourself on the tide of this world drifting in storms and tempests rather than treading firm ground, turn not your eyes from the effulgence of this star, unless you wish to be submerged … if she holds you, you do not fall, if she protects you, you have no fear; with her to lead you, you tire not; with her favour, you will reach your goal, conscious thus within yourself how rightly the word was spoken: ‘And the Virgin’s name was Mary.’” Bernard, Homily 2:17, Respice stellam (ante A.D. 1153).
“Cease your laments; I will make myself your advocate in my Son’s presence. Meanwhile, no more sadness, because I have brought joy to the world. For it is to destroy the kingdom of sorrow that I have come into the world: I full of grace … Then curb your tears; accept me as your mediatrix in the presence of him who was born from me, because the author of joy is the God generated before all ages. Remain calm; be troubled no longer: I come from him, full of grace.” Romanos the Singer, On Christmas 2,10-11 (ante A.D. 560).
“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291(ante A.D. 560).
“Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, because thou didst conceive Christ, the Son of God, the Redeemer of our souls.” Coptic Ostraca (A.D. 600).
“Mary the Ever-Virgin – radiant with divine light and full of grace, mediatrix first through her supernatural birth and now because of the intercession of her maternal assistance – be crowned with never ending blessings …seeking balance and fittingness in all things, we should make our way honestly, as sons of light.” Germanus of Constantinople, Homily on the Liberation of Constantinople, 23 (ante A.D. 733).
“O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes Mother of the Creator.” Andrew of Crete, Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity (ante A.D. 740).
“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.” John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9 (ante A.D. 749).
“We today also remain near you, O Lady. Yes, I repeat, O Lady, Mother of God and Virgin. We bind our souls to your hope, as to a most firm and totally unbreakable anchor, consecrating to you mind, soul, body, and all our being and honoring you, as much as we can, with psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles.” John of Damascene, Homily 1 on the Dormition, 14 (ante A.D. 749).
“Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul’s affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance.” Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin, (ante A.D. 778).
“Let us approach with confident spirit the throne of the high Priest, where he is our victim, priest, advocate and judge.” Radbert Paschasius, On the Assumption (ante A.D. 786).
“For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all.” Paul the Deacon, (ante A.D. 799).
“You scatter your favors with still greater abundance since you possess more fully him who is their source and who is entirely willing to give them to us, rather you possess almost everything by yourself and you show largesse to whom you will and to him who begs it of you.” John the Geometer, Life of Mary (A.D. 989).
“May we deserve to have the help of your intercession in heaven, because as the Son of God has deigned to descend to us through you, so we also must come to him with you.” Peter Damian, (ante A.D. 1072).
“The Mother of God is our mother. May the good mother ask and beg for us, may she request and obtain what is good for us.” Anselm, Oration 7(ante A.D. 1109).
“O whoever you may be who feel yourself on the tide of this world drifting in storms and tempests rather than treading firm ground, turn not your eyes from the effulgence of this star, unless you wish to be submerged … if she holds you, you do not fall, if she protects you, you have no fear; with her to lead you, you tire not; with her favour, you will reach your goal, conscious thus within yourself how rightly the word was spoken: ‘And the Virgin’s name was Mary.’” Bernard, Homily 2:17, Respice stellam (ante A.D. 1153).
E
emeraldisle
Guest
I’m still waiting for you to produce a single verse from Gods written word that tells Christians to pray through Mary.So Mary’s not a saint now?
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R
Rolltide
Guest
There ya go!
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emeraldisle
Guest
Whats the reference for that verse, I’m sure I’ve never seen it before. Maybe its one of the new paraphrase translations??There ya go!
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R
Rolltide
Guest
Which one? I listed 6 posts worth of verses…
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emeraldisle
Guest
I didn’t ask for 6 posts worth of verses, I asked you to produce a single verse from Gods written word that tells Christians to pray through Mary.
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R
Rolltide
Guest
And I asked for a single verse that specifically forbids it.
With all due respect, we’ve had this debate on another thread before, and it went on for pages. I kindly submit that we are not going to change each other’s opinions, even if we debate each other until we are blue in the face. I have provided relevant Biblical quotes. I can provide relevant quotes from the Early Church Fathers if the original poster so desires. I am never going to convince you, because you are convinced in your belief (as are most Protestants) that the Bible is the sole infallible guide to Christianity. Catholics and Orthodox believe that it is an important starting point, but that Sacred Tradition holds EQUAL weight. That said, there is Biblical evidence for this type of prayer, in the same way that the Trinity is not specifically mentioned by scripture, but strongly implied.
The one thing that I am certain of is that God hears BOTH of our prayers, and I’m content to end my portion of the debate on that note.
A
allhers
Guest
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
(emeraldisle, do you have any idea how St. Paul died?)
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
(emeraldisle, do you have any idea how St. Paul died?)
E
emeraldisle
Guest
God clearly teaches His children how to pray and He expects His children to obey His teaching on prayer. Therefore He doesn’t need a verse that says don’t pray to Mary. God has already made it clear that His children on earth should be praying for each other and that they should be praying to Him.
None of the Bible verses that you have posted teach Christians to pray through Mary.
There is no biblical evidence for praying through Mary, period.
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B
BarbG
Guest
I didn’t read all this “stuff” about Mary a/c she’s a very IMPORTANT part of my life – at the same time, God lives with me and I’m always “talking” to him and “thanking” Him for helping me find something I’ve lost or just eomthing else I want to tell Him. The Rosary is so much a part of my life I can’t imagine a day without saying the Rosary – BUT I also can’t imagine a day when I couldn’t go to Mass to receive the Eucharist – believe me when I say this, the Eucharist is the only thing that keeps me going. I am a “cradle” Catholic and my husband passed away nearly 8 years ago so I’m totally alone without the Eucharist because my children live so far away.
R
Rolltide
Guest
Even if that were true, it is an irrelevant fact to Catholics, because it has been passed down through Sacred Tradition. However, the verses DO provide substantial evidence for it from the Catholic point of view. Just because you disagree does not make it so. Further, since Mary is indeed a saint (unless you’re somehow claiming that she wasn’t human, and I know you’re not), all of the relevant passages that apply to saints apply to Mary as well.
I mean no disrespect, I’m simply trying to present our side of the argument. We are simply going to have to amicably disagree on this one.
S
SORROWS
Guest
Rolltide you sure did a great job presenting all those verses. They are so beautiful to read - powerful words.
No doubt, angels and saints are righteous and admired…perfect to ask intercessions from. Their very beings give glory to God.
And how much HIGHER is the Blessed Virgin Mary!! She is the PERFECT vessel as the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
To give honor to Our Blessd Mother can only give honor to the Son. It makes perfect sence and is a tradition of the Catholic Church.
I love her and will never treat her less just because someone wants us to find that specific verse in the Bible. God who created Mary without original sin can only be pleased by our admiration and use as an intercessor for our benefit, the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
No doubt, angels and saints are righteous and admired…perfect to ask intercessions from. Their very beings give glory to God.
And how much HIGHER is the Blessed Virgin Mary!! She is the PERFECT vessel as the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
To give honor to Our Blessd Mother can only give honor to the Son. It makes perfect sence and is a tradition of the Catholic Church.I love her and will never treat her less just because someone wants us to find that specific verse in the Bible. God who created Mary without original sin can only be pleased by our admiration and use as an intercessor for our benefit, the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
F
flameburns623
Guest
I covet the prayers of Christians anywhere and everywhere who are willing and able to pray for me. I trust that the Saints in Heaven are indeed praying for me. I trust likewise that there are Christians in persecuted churches in China, Vietnam, and the Middle East who are praying for me. In some general sense though likely not by name, because I have never been to those nations and don’t know anyone by name who lives there. I likewise pray for persecuted Christians worshipping in house churches, as I pray for Christians everywhere and for the Church as a whole.
I do not, however, kneel beside my bed and direct words in the direction of Saudi Arabia or China, beseeching Chinese or Arabic Christians to pray for me to find my lost slippers. I do not do this because Chinese or Arabic Christians who do not know me, who will never know me in this life, will never know of my lost slippers nor even of my petition to them to pray with me to find those slippers.
I do happen to know the name of any number of Catholic bishops and Cardinals. I even happen to know the name of a pope or two. I don’t know any of these folks personally, however, and none of them know me. Unless they happen to frequent this website, therefore, it is equally futile for me, kneeling by my bedside, to plead for their prayers on my behalf that I may find my lost slippers. Joseph Ratzinger, sitting in Rome Italy or where he may happen to be at this moment, has no way of hearing my spoken petition, uttered at my bedside, that he pray with me to find my slippers.
By the same token: I don’t know most of the names of most of the angels or Saints. Even of those whose names I do know–Mary, the Apostles, St. Augustine, St. Francis, and so forth–have never met me personally, for obvious reasons. At this present moment they are far and away removed from my bedside. They can’t hear me, any more than the Christian strangers in China or Saudi Arabia, any more than His Holiness in Rome. Worse: unlike Rome or China, there is no known link between my bedside and wherever St. Mary or St. Francis may be at this moment. I could send Pope Benedict an e-mail. He likely won’t get it, but I could send it nonetheless. I could post prayer requests on an electronic bulletin board which is available at times to Chinese or Arabic Christians, with some hope that my prayer requests be seen by some of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
This is the biggest problem I think most Protestants have with the idea of prayers to Saints.
By the way–don’t trouble yourselves about my slippers. They were with me all along.
They were just handy for an illustration.
I do not, however, kneel beside my bed and direct words in the direction of Saudi Arabia or China, beseeching Chinese or Arabic Christians to pray for me to find my lost slippers. I do not do this because Chinese or Arabic Christians who do not know me, who will never know me in this life, will never know of my lost slippers nor even of my petition to them to pray with me to find those slippers.
I do happen to know the name of any number of Catholic bishops and Cardinals. I even happen to know the name of a pope or two. I don’t know any of these folks personally, however, and none of them know me. Unless they happen to frequent this website, therefore, it is equally futile for me, kneeling by my bedside, to plead for their prayers on my behalf that I may find my lost slippers. Joseph Ratzinger, sitting in Rome Italy or where he may happen to be at this moment, has no way of hearing my spoken petition, uttered at my bedside, that he pray with me to find my slippers.
By the same token: I don’t know most of the names of most of the angels or Saints. Even of those whose names I do know–Mary, the Apostles, St. Augustine, St. Francis, and so forth–have never met me personally, for obvious reasons. At this present moment they are far and away removed from my bedside. They can’t hear me, any more than the Christian strangers in China or Saudi Arabia, any more than His Holiness in Rome. Worse: unlike Rome or China, there is no known link between my bedside and wherever St. Mary or St. Francis may be at this moment. I could send Pope Benedict an e-mail. He likely won’t get it, but I could send it nonetheless. I could post prayer requests on an electronic bulletin board which is available at times to Chinese or Arabic Christians, with some hope that my prayer requests be seen by some of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
This is the biggest problem I think most Protestants have with the idea of prayers to Saints.
By the way–don’t trouble yourselves about my slippers. They were with me all along.
They were just handy for an illustration.
A
allhers
Guest
flameburns, …and I was going to suggest that you ask the intercession of St. Anthony, the finder of all things lost.
I
iaskquestions
Guest
I started this thread not with the intention of starting a debate but with the honest intention of getting an answer. And I am satisfied with the answers that I have got and also with the scriptural backing for the practice (thanks to Rolltude). I read the scriptural evidence and I found it satisfactory, but it seems our prejudiced Protestant brother will not accept it. Anyway, it’s up to him really, I’ve got my answer.
D
DebChris
Guest
“Tony, Tony, look around. What was lost must be found.”flameburns, …and I was going to suggest that you ask the intercession of St. Anthony, the finder of all things lost.
I’m glad you found your answer. I like the interpretation a non-Catholic friend of mine had when it comes to the communion of saints.
They finished their race and now they are standing on the sidelines cheering us on and providing words of encouragement. Since they already know the racecourse, I can see them as being aware of the obstacles that lie ahead and making sure the course is cleared. It is a cross-country course so sometimes we need road signs so that we don’t get lost. A runner does not need to know the name of the person standing at set intervals to provide water for the runner, nor does the person holding the water bottle need to know the runner’s name. The saint, whoever it may be, could be filling the water bottle (intercessory prayer) for when we are thirsty. There is no such thing as a lone ranger Christian. We need each other’s help.
There are many times in my own life when I have experienced the uplifting effect of prayers others were offering on my behalf, whether I knew the person or not.
L
LilyM
Guest
Of course you don’t pray to living Christians in Saudi Arabia - since they’re still within the confines of their limited corruptible mortal bodies they’re obviously incapable of transcending time and space and hearing you.I covet the prayers of Christians anywhere and everywhere who are willing and able to pray for me. I trust that the Saints in Heaven are indeed praying for me. I trust likewise that there are Christians in persecuted churches in China, Vietnam, and the Middle East who are praying for me. In some general sense though likely not by name, because I have never been to those nations and don’t know anyone by name who lives there. I likewise pray for persecuted Christians worshipping in house churches, as I pray for Christians everywhere and for the Church as a whole. *I do not, however, kneel beside my bed and direct words in the direction of Saudi Arabia or China, beseeching Chinese or Arabic Christians to pray for me to find my lost slippers. I do not do this because Chinese or Arabic Christians who do not know me, who will never know me in this life, will never know of my lost slippers nor even of my petition to them to pray with me to find those slippers. *I do happen to know the name of any number of Catholic bishops and Cardinals. I even happen to know the name of a pope or two. I don’t know any of these folks personally, however, and none of them know me. Unless they happen to frequent this website, therefore, it is equally futile for me, kneeling by my bedside, to plead for their prayers on my behalf that I may find my lost slippers. Joseph Ratzinger, sitting in Rome Italy or where he may happen to be at this moment, has no way of hearing my spoken petition, uttered at my bedside, that he pray with me to find my slippers.*By the same token: I don’t know most of the names of most of the angels or Saints. Even of those whose names I do know–Mary, the Apostles, St. Augustine, St. Francis, and so forth–have never met me personally, for obvious reasons. At this present moment they are far and away removed from my bedside. They can’t hear me, any more than the Christian strangers in China or Saudi Arabia, any more than His Holiness in Rome. Worse: unlike Rome or China, there is no known link between my bedside and wherever St. Mary or St. Francis may be at this moment. I could send Pope Benedict an e-mail. He likely won’t get it, but I could send it nonetheless. I could post prayer requests on an electronic bulletin board which is available at times to Chinese or Arabic Christians, with some hope that my prayer requests be seen by some of my brothers and sisters in Christ.*This is the biggest problem I think most Protestants have with the idea of prayers to Saints. *By the way–don’t trouble yourselves about my slippers. They were with me all along.
The saints in heaven though, we know from Revelation and many other places in scripture, aren’t subject to the same limitations. They indeed can see and hear all that we do - they’re our cloud of heavenly witnesses, as St Paul says. Pleading for God to take vengeance against wrongdoers on earth, as per Revelation, so obviously they are well aware of what’s going on even in your neck of the woods.
Ever know a witness who CAN’T see and hear what’s going on during the race, and who can’t or doesn’t cheer or call out to their favourite athlete, or even appeal to the referee on their behalf?
:yup:- Status