How and why to pray through Mary?

[guanophore]

You can have the last word on this. Were to far off topic.

I think not. Basically intercession through Mary boils down to Apostolic Teaching and Practice. You hold to the erroneous view that all this Apostolic TEaching is contained within the holy Scripture, while others know that it is also contained in the liturgies and early prayers of the Church, which included prayers to Mary. When you limit yourself to scripture, you are unable to receive all of what the Apostles taught.

What is so puzzling is why you have such a hang up on Marian issues. Since you think it is all “speculations of men”, why would it bother you if others engaged in this practice, so long as you don’t fall into it yourself? No one here has pressured you to seek intercession from Mary.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Jesus never said He would protect the church in this way. He warned of false teachers as does Paul and Peter. Both of them warn that they would come into the church itself and deceive many.

He most certainly did to. How could you possibly think He didn’t when His Words, from His mouth, actually say that He would.

There is a lot here that we can’t go into right now because of topic restrictions.

Not really. We have all strayed to teach you this, so you CAN see it so we can get back to the topic at hand.

I have never claimed the Catholic Church does not have authority. It is not the ultimate authority though. Any human authority (including those that claim divine authority) can err. This is why I base what I believe in matters of Christian doctrine and practice on the Scriptures. If a teaching or practice does not line up with the inspired-inerrant Word of God it is either not binding or false.

Again, the human authority was given to Peter to bind and to loose, and the human authority was given to the apostles to teach Jesus’ teachings without error. You are right, the apostles were just human, men. But, in matters of faith and morals (which is Jesus’ Deposit of Faith) they cannot err because Jesus is protecting His Church from teaching His Words in error. Are you saying that Jesus would found a Church, then be ok with it teaching His teachings in error? I can’t figure you out. Something is giving you a roadblock. Common sense will tell you, if Jesus’ Words don’t, that He is the head, the cornerstone of His Church. He left men on earth in charge to govern, but He is the Supreme Authority. He is up there in heaven making sure His bride stays True to His faithful. Do you really think He would just let His teachings be taught in error from His Church? Churches that began in the 1500’s are the first official teachers of different beliefs and interpretations than His Church had always had (and still does.)

 

[Always_For_Him]

nobody pays attention to my posts

Yeah, we do, see?

You are very valuable to this thread. You have provided much detailed information. Thank you for your time and knowledge, I appreciate it more than you could ever know.

 

[Always_For_Him]

You can have the last word on this. Were to far off topic.

Would you please quit with this already? You don’t want to discuss it, so you bring in the ole’ safety net, “we better not discuss this because it is off topic.”

Honestly, you immediately refute everything we say in favor of your own beliefs. While I can understand that, everyone feels/knows/owns the Truth in their own beliefs. But, your beliefs have been proven to be taught in error by modern man over and over again, yet you just refuse to acquiesce on anything. I think it is paramount that you come to believe that Jesus gave authority, and promised to protect His Church until the end of the ages, so you can have security in risking the open mind/open heart that you NEED/HAVE to have for the Truth to be revealed to you. Until you at least accept the Catholic Church as the earthly protectors of Jesus’ teachings by the authority of Jesus Christ, there is nothing else we can do for you, nothing else we have to discuss. We have been discussed these same questions over and over and over again, to no avail. So, it really is up to you being open to hearing Jesus trying to reveal the Truth to you. We can’t do that for you, as much as we have tried, we can’t do that for you.

 

[Joey_13]

Again…Hogwash!
The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

People want to use the Bible as the sole authority yet when it contradicts their own interpretations then they try to use the Catholic Church as their scape goat. What an honor for Mary to be called by God to bring into this world our savior.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

People want to use the Bible as the sole authority yet when it contradicts their own interpretations then they try to use the Catholic Church as their scape goat. What an honor for Mary to be called by God to bring into this world our savior.

Yes. EVERYBODY knows that scripture must be interpreted. The question is, who is the authoratative interpretor: The individual, or the leader of the Church?

Individual intepretation is dangerous (2 Peter 3:16), it leads to “denominations” which are also warned against (1 Corinthians 1:10, 11:18), and Jesus never made individuals the deciders of doctrine.

However, Jesus DID give the teaching mandate to the apostles (Matthew 28: 19-20). Sola Scriptura is just plain wrong.

 

[justasking4]

Always For Him;4067071]Again, the human authority was given to Peter to bind and to loose, and the human authority was given to the apostles to teach Jesus’ teachings without error. You are right, the apostles were just human, men. But, in matters of faith and morals (which is Jesus’ Deposit of Faith) they cannot err because Jesus is protecting His Church from teaching His Words in error. Are you saying that Jesus would found a Church, then be ok with it teaching His teachings in error?

If Jesus had promised the church it could not teach error then these passages of Scripture are contradicting this. Consider these warnings:
Matthew 24:11-11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Acts 20:29-31—
. 29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

31 “Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

2 Corinthians 11:
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

2 Thessalonians 2:3- Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Peter 2:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

I can’t figure you out. Something is giving you a roadblock. Common sense will tell you, if Jesus’ Words don’t, that He is the head, the cornerstone of His Church. He left men on earth in charge to govern, but He is the Supreme Authority. He is up there in heaven making sure His bride stays True to His faithful.

Do you really think He would just let His teachings be taught in error from His Church?

See my previous response above.

Churches that began in the 1500’s are the first official teachers of different beliefs and interpretations than His Church had always had (and still does.)

 

[guanophore]

If Jesus had promised the church it could not teach error then these passages of Scripture are contradicting this. Consider these warnings:
Matthew 24:11-11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

No, ja4, there is no contradiction. There are false prophets, and they have, and do, mislead many. Anyone who promotes Sola Scriptura can be found in this category. Individuals err. That is not the same as the Church making an error. Anyway, Jesus never said these false prophets were even Christian. There were several more Jewish “prophets” after Jesus that misled many.

when I said that you will be limited in your understanding until you can master the basics, this is a good example of what I meant. here you reveal a faulty understanding of “Church”, which you equate with a “false prophet”. On the contrary, Jesus is the Head of the Church, and He is not a false prophet, and the Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit, which is why she cannot err. It is the divine elements of the Church that prevent error.

Acts 20:29-31—

. 29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

It’s ok, ja4. We know you are here, and we are on guard! :knight1:

31 “Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Probably the folks here at CAF are more alert to the errors you are promoting than the run of the mill Catholic in the parish pew. No worries!

2 Corinthians 11:

13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

Must you speak about yourself this way?

This passage gives examples why we need Jesus to prevent us from error. We cannot, of ourselves, prevent the gates of hell (teaching error).

Fortunately, He said “I will never leave you or forsake you - I will be with you until the end of the age”. And, we believe HIm.

2 Thessalonians 2:3- Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Jesus has taught everything to the Apostles so that, when these things happen, we will be safe.

John 14:28-30
" And now I have told you this before it occurs, so that when it does occur, you may believe."

If we hold fast to the Teachings of the Apostles, we will continue to grow in faith, and the evil one will not be able to snatch us out of His hand.

2 Peter 2:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

The fact that falsehood exists does not negate the truth. In fact, such falsehoods and destructive heresies make the church grow in purity and understanding.

1 Cor 11:19
19 Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine.

Just as the presence of a false Queen of Heaven does not nullify the true Queen, the presence of falsehoods and heresies does not nullify the genuine. the Church teaches what is Genuine,and no amount of false prophets can change the Truth.

See my previous response above.

Apparently you cannot perceive that those who teach heresy have already departed from the Church. False prophets and destroyers are no longer in communion with the Head, who his Christ. Yes, such persons have arisen from within the Church, but as soon as they reject the Apostolic Teaching, they excommunicate themselves, and are no longer considered part of the Body of Christ. They don’t represent the church, which only teaches the Truth. They represent something else (or someone else!) We read about their fate in the book of Jude:

Jude 11-13
12 These are blemishes on your love-feasts, while they feast with you without fear, feeding themselves. They are waterless clouds carried along by the winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the deepest darkness has been reserved forever.

So you see, these people are not Church, but destined for perdition.

 

[Always_For_Him]

If Jesus had promised the church it could not teach error then these passages of Scripture are contradicting this. Consider these warnings:
Matthew 24:11-11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Because false prophets WILL arise and Will mislead many. Are you saying that has happened with the Catholic Church?

People who claim to be prophets, who are not prophets sent by God, are false prophets. Are you saying that every Pope is a false prophet? The pope is the governing leader that JESUS put in place with Peter to keep His teachings pure from heresy that would be espoused on earth.

2Peter2 refers to the Reformers and every single teaching in non-Catholic Churches that teach other than Apostolic teachings.

2 Peter 2:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

and

2 Corinthians 11:
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

These verses also pertain to the Reformers and every teaching in non-Cathoic Churches that aren’t apostolic teachings.

You have taken these verses and re-interpreted them into what you think they mean to fit with what your Church/denomination has taught you they mean. These were NEVER the interpretations of Christians until the Reformation ushered in the ability for each and every person to interpret Scripture for themselves.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Maybe instead of “justasking4” his name should be “justanswering4”. LOL

(just joking… … 4 )

.

 

[Always_For_Him]

This passage gives examples why we need Jesus to prevent us from error. We cannot, of ourselves, prevent the gates of hell (teaching error).

Fortunately, He said “I will never leave you or forsake you - I will be with you until the end of the age”. And, we believe HIm.

Jesus has taught everything to the Apostles so that, when these things happen, we will be safe.

John 14:28-30
" And now I have told you this before it occurs, so that when it does occur, you may believe."

If we hold fast to the Teachings of the Apostles, we will continue to grow in faith, and the evil one will not be able to snatch us out of His hand.

The fact that falsehood exists does not negate the truth. In fact, such falsehoods and destructive heresies make the church grow in purity and understanding.

1 Cor 11:19
19 Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine.

Just as the presence of a false Queen of Heaven does not nullify the true Queen, the presence of falsehoods and heresies does not nullify the genuine. the Church teaches what is Genuine,and no amount of false prophets can change the Truth.

Apparently you cannot perceive that those who teach heresy have already departed from the Church. False prophets and destroyers are no longer in communion with the Head, who his Christ. Yes, such persons have arisen from within the Church, but as soon as they reject the Apostolic Teaching, they excommunicate themselves, and are no longer considered part of the Body of Christ. They don’t represent the church, which only teaches the Truth. They represent something else (or someone else!) We read about their fate in the book of Jude:

Jude 11-13
12 These are blemishes on your love-feasts, while they feast with you without fear, feeding themselves. They are waterless clouds carried along by the winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the deepest darkness has been reserved forever.

So you see, these people are not Church, but destined for perdition.

Thank you for this post! 1 Cor 11:19 is referring to every Church that broke away from the True Church - the one they were talking about - the Church Jesus founded - the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church!

19 Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine.

The Protestant Reformation ushered in the factions being spoke of here, and NOW we are having to always defend against these factions to keep clear who is the genuine being spoken of here - the Christian members of the Catholic Church. They are the genuine believers of Truth. Everyone else is a faction.

I know that is difficult to hear, but ja4 and everyone else coming here telling use/trying to show us where we are wrong, ARE the factions. Your Church is part of a Church that separated itself from the Catholic Church during the Reformation. MAN established and defined your Church and it’s teachings. You are following the teachings and traditions of MAN. You don’t know/believe it because it is what you have always known, and their teachings are what you accepted as Truth along with your perception that those teachings “fit” with what you interpret the Scriptures to mean. Scriptures and Protestant individual interpretations, beliefs are what they are, and you have free will to accept them as Truth. That means that you have used free will to reject what Christ taught the apostles and they taught - apostolic teachings. You have been taught the truth now, if you reject it, that is your choice. I can’t imagine anyone putting their eternal salvation on a Church founded by man. I can’t imagine anyone risking their eternal salvation on a teaching/interpretation by a man that is contrary to original apostolic teaching. I can’t imagine anyone risking their eternal salvation on their own human, fallible, interpretation - especially when it is contrary to the original apostolic teachings that has been around for over 1500 years before man established Churches to teach different teachings AND especially since the teachings/interpretations that you believe in/teach others are less than 500 years old! These were NEVER part of Christianity until some modern man made them up by his own ideology and interpretation. Do you know who founded your Church? Do you know what year your Church was founded? If it wasn’t founded by Jesus on the apostles and at Pentecost, then your Church is not connected to Jesus’ Church in any way, except for the teachings that WERE taken on through the Reformation that remain the same interpretation as before they were taken from the Catholic Church. Every other teaching/interpretation/belief that you hold that is contrary to original apostolic teaching, is teaching of man. That is the tradition that you hold dear to, not the teachings and traditions that John was talking about.

You should also worry about teaching error/heresy, leading people astray because we all know what they say about that in the Bible! Or, maybe you don’t because you ignore that Scripture verse.

 

[justasking4]

Thank you for this post! 1 Cor 11:19 is referring to every Church that broke away from the True Church - the one they were talking about - the Church Jesus founded - the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church!

19 Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine.

The Protestant Reformation ushered in the factions being spoke of here, and NOW we are having to always defend against these factions to keep clear who is the genuine being spoken of here - the Christian members of the Catholic Church. They are the genuine believers of Truth. Everyone else is a faction.

I know that is difficult to hear, but ja4 and everyone else coming here telling use/trying to show us where we are wrong, ARE the factions. Your Church is part of a Church that separated itself from the Catholic Church during the Reformation. MAN established and defined your Church and it’s teachings. You are following the teachings and traditions of MAN. You don’t know/believe it because it is what you have always known, and their teachings are what you accepted as Truth along with your perception that those teachings “fit” with what you interpret the Scriptures to mean. Scriptures and Protestant individual interpretations, beliefs are what they are, and you have free will to accept them as Truth. That means that you have used free will to reject what Christ taught the apostles and they taught - apostolic teachings. You have been taught the truth now, if you reject it, that is your choice. I can’t imagine anyone putting their eternal salvation on a Church founded by man. I can’t imagine anyone risking their eternal salvation on a teaching/interpretation by a man that is contrary to original apostolic teaching. I can’t imagine anyone risking their eternal salvation on their own human, fallible, interpretation - especially when it is contrary to the original apostolic teachings that has been around for over 1500 years before man established Churches to teach different teachings AND especially since the teachings/interpretations that you believe in/teach others are less than 500 years old! These were NEVER part of Christianity until some modern man made them up by his own ideology and interpretation. Do you know who founded your Church? Do you know what year your Church was founded? If it wasn’t founded by Jesus on the apostles and at Pentecost, then your Church is not connected to Jesus’ Church in any way, except for the teachings that WERE taken on through the Reformation that remain the same interpretation as before they were taken from the Catholic Church. Every other teaching/interpretation/belief that you hold that is contrary to original apostolic teaching, is teaching of man. That is the tradition that you hold dear to, not the teachings and traditions that John was talking about.

You should also worry about teaching error/heresy, leading people astray because we all know what they say about that in the Bible! Or, maybe you don’t because you ignore that Scripture verse.

This is off topic. I’m sure there are threads on this out in caf that you can discuss this.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread is again off topic and is closed.
MF