How and why to pray through Mary?

[Chaldean_Rite]

Infallibility is subject matter for another thread.

Every discussion, whether its about Mary, saints, Purgatory, sacraments, etc., always comes down to this one issue. The teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Church is always the bottom line in every discussion, because the discussions always come back to that eventually

I have no need to test these things, because I know that Church Church is infallible in matters of faith and morals. Its the difference between trusting the Church (which we do) or trusting our own personal authority to decide doctrine (which you do)

[SIGN] Amen [/SIGN]

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Do you realise that Jesus never promised this?

Never promised what? It isn’t clear what part of the post you’re responding to.

What do Catholics teach that 'Jesus didn’t promise"?

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Do you realise that Jesus never promised this?

I think he did. The “spirit of truth” which he promised, was a promise made to the apostles alone. If you read those verses in context, you’ll see he was only addressing the apostles. Why? Becuase they were the ones he would give the madate to teach to. So, he made sure they would teach truth. That is a promise from Jesus.

At any rate, one thing is for sure: He never promised to hand out Bibles and give every individual the authority to decide doctrine and start their own denomination.

 

[guanophore]

Do you honor other parents the same way you honor your own? Do you consider them your parents to?

Of course! A rejection of our family in Christ would be something someone might do who had been very wounded by their own family , and did not want to trust anyone to get too close. Jesus clearly says that our extended family begins in this life:

Mark 10:29-31
“Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age — houses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutions — and in the age to come eternal life.”

Where do you think these “mothers” come from, and why do you think they should not be honored as our own?

Rom 16:12-13
13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; and greet his mother — a mother to me also."

Catholics follow the example of the Apostles, to treat those as mothers who have been given to us by Christ, whether we were born from them, or not.

How do you suppose the mother of Rufus was a mother to Paul also? Do you think he did not honor her as he would his own mother? Would he honor the mother of Jesus less?

i’ll have to let you have the last word for now on this since its getting to far off topic…

No, I think you have just been bested. Your answer to why we should not pray to mary, among other things, is that she is not due any more honor than your run of the mill “dead” mother. We have shown that this is not the case.

Was the family pursued by someone?

(Church Militant says “absolutely!”)

Let’s see…

" When Herod died, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said, 20 “Get up, take the child and his mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who were seeking the child’s life are dead.” 21 Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother, and went to the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was ruling over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And after being warned in a dream, he went away to the district of Galilee." Matt 2:19-23

Looks to me like there were people seeking the child’s life. Did Herod send assasins after the child and His family? They fled into the desert. Why did they need to be warned, if there was no pursuit?

This kind of interpretation goes far beyond what the texts say. For one as i’m sure you know even when Jesus gave the care of His mother did He say she was now the mother of the church nor do any of the apostles in their writings ever refer to her as such.

Fortunately, we are not limited to the scriptural accounts.

That has not been demonstrated so far by what you have written.

I agree. I think these issues are much too sublime for you. I think a focus on the elementary doctrines would be much more useful.

I ask you again. Where in the NT is this title–“Queen of heaven” used of Mary?

In each and every place the word “Trinity” is found.

i’m kind of dense as you know. Please clarify what you are saying.

Start with the fundamentals, then when a firm foundation exists, you can build on it.

Even if a pagan king claimed such a thing that would not mean he is in fact the King of Kings when such a title rightly applies only to God.

Glad you got the point. Someone falsley making a claim does not invalidate a true claim.

Do the Scriptures teach that Christians are to honor her as queen of heaven?

I don’t think her gift in the heavenly realm was revealed until most of the NT writers were dead. It is only referenced by John, who was the last Apostle to write.

To think that not one of the disciples who knew her best ever refers to her as their mother shows that the first disciples never thought of her like this.

John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing beside her, he said to his mother, “Woman, here is your son.” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home.

Let me get this straight. You think that John did not treat her as if she was his own mother?

If Paul can “adopt” the mother of Rufus, who treated him like her own son, why could he not “adopt” Mary the same way?

You still have never been able to explain away the family members Jesus’ promised to believers…who are those “mothers”?

The problem is that there is no support for your assertion here that Mary is the mother of the church.

Well, we see it differently. John was careful not to name himself in his gospel. He wrote as a person who was “standing in” for every person who would ever be “loved” by Jesus. When Jesus gave his mother the “the disciple that Jesus loved”, we understand that we share in this gift, if we stand at the foot of His cross.

However, you are not obligated to receive any of the gifts and callings of God, ja4. You can spurn His gift. But why try to pursuade us to do so?

You have yet to demonstrate from the Scriptures that Mary is to be honored like a parent.

Is there some other role you prefer to honor her in? Can you show with scripture that she should NOT be honored as a parent?

Perhaps you don’t consider yourself related to Christ?

Matt 12:48-50
“Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

If you do not do the will fo the Father in heaven, then you are not His brother, and if you are not adopted as His brother, then you cannot share the gift of His mother.

Until then…

Are you saying you have some kind of relationship with them that you and them communicate back and forth?

 

[chiquidie]

In your Family, When you did something wrong which your father hate it. Who is the person explaining to your father, or who can ask for your father’s forgiveness of what you did ? It’s your Mother!

 

[Popes_Soldier]

In your Family, When you did something wrong which your father hate it. Who is the person explaining to your father, or who can ask for your father’s forgiveness of what you did ? It’s your Mother!

 

[Des]

http://www.redridinghoodedibles.com/files/1321601/uploaded/mom.jpg

Ditto!

Most moms are pretty special. They have a different kind of heart that clings to their children. We see this when the Mother of God was at the foot of the cross and I can’t even imagine the sorrow She was going through as a mother. Impossible!

Here is Her Saviour, Her Son whom She bathed, dressed, helped to take His first steps, fixed up His little scratches when He fell down, hugged, kissed, played with and now He was dying for us all, right before Her very eyes, whipped, beaten, naked, and crucified. Her Immaculate Heart is so close to that of Her Son’s Sacred Heart that it’s incomprehensible.
http://www.williammcdermott.com/sacred_heart_and_immaculate_heart.jpg

 

[chiquidie]

I am a Catholic. But in my childhood I was bombarded with Protestant beliefs and ideologies.

I’m still a Catholic though. But, to this day I find it difficult or sometimes even silly to pray through Mary or the saints.

I pray to Jesus and the Father. And I’m heard. So why should I pray through Mary or the saints? How can I be sure that St.“so and so” is hearing me? And what’s the advantage of doing that when I know Christ hears me and so does the Father? Or is it that they cannot always hear me?

When did this practice of praying through Mary and the saints begin?

In your Family, When you did something wrong in which your father hate it. Who is the person explaining to your father, or who can ask for your father’s forgiveness with what you did? It’s your Mother!

 

[guanophore]

You are making a number of unprovable assumptions about the after life.

I suppose you could say that the whole of Christianity is “unproveable” according to modern scientific standards. If it could be “proven”, why would we call it a faith?

However, none of then are “assumptions” (except Mary into heaven )

They are all the revelation of God through His Son Jesus. It was He who chose Mary before the foundation of the world, and prepared her to be the sacred vessel to carry the second person of the Trinity. For this reason, all generations call her Blessed.

Scripture shows that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous person avails much. We consider Mary to be such a righteous person. Our mama wears combat boots!

One is that you don’t know if a particular person can hear your prayers.

I suppose this is true. If I ask you to pray for me, I have no idea if you can or will do so. How does it hurt me to ask for your prayers?

For example lets say a catholic friend of yours dies. You have no way of knowing where he is nor do you know if he can hear your prayers to him.

This is true. We generally make our requests of those we know are in heaven with the Lord.

Secondly, you do not know what the nature of the after life is like. You don’t know if he has the “ablities” to deal with your requests.

You don’t know, ja4, because you have rejected the Apostolic Teaching. However, we who accept what Jesus taught know that the saints are alive in heaven with Him, and that they are a great cloud of witnesses.

Third, if he is in purgatory can he hear your prayers?

We don’t believe that he can do anything about them even if he can hear, so we direct prayers to saints who have already been glorified.

This passage is not about Jesus praying to Moses and Elijah for their help.

Really? What makes you think not?

Secondly, the appearance of these 2 men was in our world.

Those who have passed on are no longer bound by the space/time continuum.

Thirdly, no writer of the NT ever uses this passage as some kind of prayer passage.

Such a statement boggles the mind.

Now about eight days after these sayings Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white. 30 Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. 31 They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem."
Luke 9:28-31

How can you say that this passage has nothing to do with prayer?
Jesus demonstrates that it is possible to converse during prayer with saints that have passed on.

Does it not seem clear that, during prayer, the saints appeared to Him, and were conversing about the imminent crucifixion?

I’m not talking about Jesus in His resurrected body. Do you think then that when people die they get a resurrected body immediately after their deaths?

Some do. Mary does.

i have no problem with praying to Jesus since He alone is our High Priest who can deal with all our requests. The Scriptures are absolutely clear about this.

So, ja4, if you are satisfied, why are you here? Why are you at CAF at all? Why are you on this thread, if your needs are already met?

This would mean that in this state or place might have some impact on the person there to do something with prayers prayed to them.

I am not sure what this sentence means, but for the record, let me state that the Catholic Church does not teach that the souls in purgatory can do anything to assist us here on earth.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus is not talking to them while they are in heaven but on the earth. Face to face.

Jesus told the Father “I know that you always hear me”. We don’t need to see HIs face. We also do not need to see the faces of the Saints to know that they are in Christ, and therefore, can hear whatever He wants them to hear. Moses and Elijah are no longer bound the the space/time continuum. They have been released from it, and therefore, can appear wherever He allows them.

How does it matter that they were visible? Does that somehow change the fact that they were having a conversation? Are you asserting that one cannot have a conversation with someone that one cannot see?

Do you think Jesus was praying to them and they heard Him and came to Him on earth?

It is certainly possible. That is what happened with Peter and Dorcas.

Do you think that any human can do anything supernatural like participate in a transfiguration apart from the power of God?

But you have no way of knowing who is in purgatory though. You have no way to know if a saint etc is in heaven or in purgatory.

Ah, but we do! We know those who have been revealed to us by God, such as the Blessed Mother!

How does the church know this with certainity? How do you test for such a thing? How would you know your not being decieved?

Because we trust in HIm that he is ready, willing, and able to keep His promise to lead us into all Truth.

Do you realise that Jesus never promised this?

On the contrary, He promised that the gates of hell (falling into error) would not prevail against His Church. He promised that He would not leave us orphans, and He promised that no one could snatch us out of his hand (by deception). We choose to believe HIm.

 

[jean8]

Dear Jean8,

Indeed Jean 8, “consummatum est.” Jesus’ last words before He died paying the price we all owe for our sins.

Where we diverge is just exactly how one draws down the Blood of His perfect sacrifice upon one’s soul. You probably believe something like you think you are forgiven, therefore you are and can point to several Scripture passages to prove that you are. After all, God Himself said in His Sacred Word that…but After He made the offering of Himself upon the Cross, He came back from the dead and commissioned the Apostles to preach, Baptise, and forgive sins. He breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit and told them they could forgive or bind sins. They have been doing so for 2000 years.

Your beliefs cannot undo anything they have done. It is real whether or not you believe it. It would be like saying to yourself, “Tomorrow I don’t believe the sun will rise,” and expecting it to obey your beliefs! I personally wish you would believe, as I wish everyone in the whole world would!

The normal way to become unbound from one’s sins is in the Sacrament God gave to His Church. When I receive Absolution in the Sacrament, God Himself is forgiving me through the ministry of the Church via the priest who has received it from the Church. God pours His own Blood on my soul to wash away my sins, my Baptismal grace is restored and I am free from my sins. Then strengthened by the Sacrament, I leave the Confessional to go back to the day to day battle with my sins. I often call upon that same Blood to strengthen me in my day. I “place It” before me. I gives me strength.

I know this is off topic, but you seemed interested a bit, and I thought perhaps the grace of God was prompting you try and understand. I hope you act on that grace. May you be blessed in your day. And may you one day know the love of Mary, your own Mother.

Peace,

Gail

Gail,
Thank you for your reply.
You are assuming many things that aren’t exactly true. For example, we do have Holy Communion every week and we also confess our sins before we commune. (the Real Presense)
I don’t wonder if I 'm saved, I know that I’m saved. By His grace, through faith.
Do I walk worthy according to His word, yes, do I often fail, yes. But if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive them.
I do love and know Mary. I often think of her holding the Son of God in her arms when he was a babe. Just think of the honor this was for her. Have you heard of the Lutheran Rosary? Yes, I do know Mary.
Bless you for your testimony. You have a wonderful relationship with our Lord.

God bless you,
jean8

 

[GailMac]

Dear Jean8 - I don’t really want to hurt your feelings, but your Lutheran belief does nothing to the bread you consider communion at your services. You are eating plain ole bread - nothing more no matter how much you want to believe otherwise. No matter how closely you imitate the Church, your copy has no valid priesthood and without a priest, no Eucharist. Sorry. The Rosary isn’t Lutheran either. Great you have a way to imitate what we do, but it is only an imitation. If you want the Real Presence, you must quit the imitation and come to the REAL Church!

Peace,

Gail

 

[justasking4]

Never promised what? It isn’t clear what part of the post you’re responding to.

What do Catholics teach that 'Jesus didn’t promise"?

That Church Church would infallible in matters of faith and morals. You won’t find such a promise from Jesus either in the gospels or letters.

 

[justasking4]

Popes Soldier;4062991]I think he did. The “spirit of truth” which he promised, was a promise made to the apostles alone. If you read those verses in context, you’ll see he was only addressing the apostles. Why? Becuase they were the ones he would give the madate to teach to. So, he made sure they would teach truth. That is a promise from Jesus.

Then how do you explain passages such as 2 Peter 2:1 which warns of false teachers coming into the church itself and decieving? Paul also warned of this?

At any rate, one thing is for sure: He never promised to hand out Bibles and give every individual the authority to decide doctrine and start their own denomination.

Where did He forbid such a thing?

 

[guanophore]

That Church Church would infallible in matters of faith and morals. You won’t find such a promise from Jesus either in the gospels or letters.

We do see them, ja4:

“I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me; because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.” John 14:18-21

Heb 13:5-6
for he has said, “I will never leave you or forsake you.” 6 So we can say with confidence,

“The Lord is my helper;
I will not be afraid.
What can anyone do to me?”

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” John 16:12-15

Eph 6:14
14 Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist,

How can we fasten the belt of Truth around our waist, if we don’t know what the truth is?

Catholics believe that Jesus meant what He said, and that these promises are given to the Church.

Have you ever thought about what would happen if you also chose to believe these promises?

Then how do you explain passages such as 2 Peter 2:1 which warns of false teachers coming into the church itself and decieving? Paul also warned of this?

No problem!

John 17:15-24
15 I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. 16 They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. ** 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.** 18 As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself,** so that they also may be sanctified in truth. **
20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, ** 21 that they may all be one.** As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

If you look at the passage in John above that contains the high priestly prayer of Jesus, it is clear that Truth is found in HIm, and that He has revealed His truth to the Apostles. They are to remain one in Him. His word sanctifies them in His Truth. All those who depart from this unity (as did the Reformers) will lose part of that Truth.

Where did He forbid such a thing?

As you see above, Jesus expects all those who are in unity with Him to be in unity with one another.

1 Peter 3:8-9

Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love for one another, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

This unity of Spirit is found with Peter, the Rock upon whom the church is built.

It seems to me that this query is way off topic, so let me do what I can to bring it back.

Since God revealed His Truth to the Apostles, then gave His Spirit to them to guide them into all Truth, then we can be confident that the Truth that is taught by the Apostles and their successors reflects what God intends (we do not believe that he is dishonest, or too weak to keep HIs promises). The Church has declared the Teachings about Mary to be authentic. She is the Mother of God, and as such, has a special access to His heart that no other human has. Her prayers are powerful, and can avail us much. This is why it is recommended to ask her intercession.

 

[Always_For_Him]

That Church Church would infallible in matters of faith and morals. You won’t find such a promise from Jesus either in the gospels or letters.

In the OT, when GOd established His Covenant with the nation of Isreal, He provided for a living, continuing authority in the Mosaic priesthood. This authority did not end when the OT Scripture was written; rather, it continued as the safeguard and authentic interpreter of Sacred Scripture.

When Christ established His Church, the New Isreal, He set up a living, continuing authorith to teach, govern, and sanctify in His name. This living authority is called “Apostolic” becaue it began with the twelve Apostles and continued with their successors. It was this Apostolic authority that would preserve and authentically interpret the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This same Apostolic authority determined the canon of the Bible, and will preserve the teachings of Jesus Christ in all their fullness, and uncorrupted from error, until the end of time.

It really seems that you are refuting this so ardently because you have a lot to lose if you begin to see the Truth.

The Catholic Church IS Jesus’ Church that He founded on Peter and the Apostles, that He set up with a governing authority, gave the keys to Peter, breathed on them (this is VERY important) and commanded them to go forth and teach, gave them the power “to bind and to loose” and promised them that HE would guide and protect His Church until the end of the ages. Jesus would not have guaranteed to back up the doctrinal teachings of St. Peter and his successors unless He was ALSO going to protect them from teaching false doctrine in their official capacities as Shepherds of the Church.

I think you can’t let yourself see it because you are scared that you have a lot to loose. On the contrary, you have EVERYTHING to gain, the Truth, the fullness of Christ’s teachings.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Then how do you explain passages such as 2 Peter 2:1 which warns of false teachers coming into the church itself and decieving? Paul also warned of this?

Are you saying that Peter and the apostles and their successors, the ECF’s, would possible be the false teachings coming into the church itself and decieving. Is Paul warning against his and the other apostles successors? If teachings had changed, then maybe you would have a point. But, teachings have not ever changed from the time of the apostles. The apostles taught, without error because they were protected from error by the Holy Spirit, their successors the Truth and Tradition as they received if from Christ. The successors continued to teach those same teachings and so forth. The teachings and interpretations of the Catholic Church today are the very same teachings and interpretations of the apostles and the ECF’s. So, no false prophets have entered the Catholic Church and taught error. It will happen someday, and when that time comes, we had better be ready.

The Reformers weren’t prophets, but they ushered in error, and everyone that learned that error and believed it as Truth has passed it on through the generations of the Protestant Church.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Where did He forbid such a thing?

He commanded the apostles to go forth and teach. He only breathed on them. He only gave THEM authority to teach and promised His protection that it not be taught in error. He only promised it to them! They even teach against individual interpretation. It is very clearly written in the Bible. Not, everything is written in the Bible, but individual interpretation of man is clearly admonished. It just goes against Protestant teachings, therefore, it has to be scewed into a different meanings to make sense to Protestants the way they know it.

 

[justasking4]

He commanded the apostles to go forth and teach. He only breathed on them. He only gave THEM authority to teach and promised His protection that it not be taught in error. He only promised it to them! They even teach against individual interpretation. It is very clearly written in the Bible. Not, everything is written in the Bible, but individual interpretation of man is clearly admonished. It just goes against Protestant teachings, therefore, it has to be scewed into a different meanings to make sense to Protestants the way they know it.

You can have the last word on this. Even though you make good points its getting to afar from the topic.

 

[Always_For_Him]

You can have the last word on this. Even though you make good points its getting to afar from the topic.

Sorry about that. I guess it always seems to boil down to the authority of the Church doesn’t it?

If non-Catholics don’t believe that Jesus gave His authority to the Catholic Church, then they don’t believe that we are infallible in our teachings. Hence, that is why in this particular belief and teaching of praying through Mary and all of Marian dogma, they, now, believe we are wrong. We weren’t during the reformation and for many, many years after the reformation, but now Marian dogma is false.

I am always amazed that they criticize, deny, refute, challenge our teachings that we have always held, but believe in the Bible that we wrote from those same teachings.