How and why to pray through Mary?

[justasking4]

We call her the Blessed Virgin. Do you?

She was blessed but the facts of Scripture don’t support her being a perpetual virgin.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Gee, look at this. Mark 6:4 "And Jesus said to them: A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and in his own house, and among his own kindred.

Prophets are honored by other people. But the Virgin Mary apparently isn’t even ‘good enough’ to be honored.

Anybody else notice that here Jesus is telling us that there are some who are so ‘familiar’ with a person, or think they know them SO WELL, or think that the person is just nobody special. . .and so they do not honor them the way they should. . .and the way that other, humbler people do–even though the ones who refuse to honor are family and friends?

Anybody else see a parallel to this passage in JA? Who thinks he knows Mary, and Christ, so very, very well. . .yet does not believe he needs to honor Mary, or that in ‘calling her blessed’ he does so?

 

[justasking4]

Gee, look at this. Mark 6:4 "And Jesus said to them: A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and in his own house, and among his own kindred.

Prophets are honored by other people. But the Virgin Mary apparently isn’t even ‘good enough’ to be honored.

Anybody else notice that here Jesus is telling us that there are some who are so ‘familiar’ with a person, or think they know them SO WELL, or think that the person is just nobody special. . .and so they do not honor them the way they should. . .and the way that other, humbler people do–even though the ones who refuse to honor are family and friends?

Anybody else see a parallel to this passage in JA? Who thinks he knows Mary, and Christ, so very, very well. . .yet does not believe he needs to honor Mary, or that in ‘calling her blessed’ he does so?

Did any of the apostles in their writings mention anything about honoring Mary? Do we see them honoring her?

 

[guanophore]

Hi ja4,
I want to ask you what the “number of things” that the Church was wrong about specifically are. This statement by you seems to be a prevailing statement by non-Catholics. Is it because your Church has taught you that the Catholics were wrong about a number of things, so the need for the Reformation? I know it isn’t just one answer for why, but I just don’t get it.

People are wrong about things. People are fallible no matter what Church they belong to. BUT, in matters of Faith and Morals given in Jesus’ Deposit of Faith through Oral and Sacred Tradition, the “people” men of the Early Church through today cannot err. They are protected from teaching error. The Catholic Church has kept error away from it’s teachings for 2,000 years now. We didn’t give in and let error in. I know that this is not what you believe, because you have been taught that Scripture means something else, and that Catholics are idol worshipers, and that Catholics only believe works will get us to heaven, and that we were so bad, that it caused Luther and the other Reformers to leave her and found their own Churches. That is not the case. All of the documentation is there for you to study. Reform had begun 200 years before Trent and it was in regards to the sale of indulgences and other agregious actions of men. The reasons for the Reformation weren’t over Catholic doctrine or dogma, or the Catholic Church’s teachings or interpretation of Scripture. Just read Luther’s 95 Theses, that will explain a lot.

I want to ask you to research the Early Church Fathers teachings and writings to prove or disprove the differences in beliefs, the original interpretation of Scripture and how it changed as a result of the Reformation. Research how the Bible changed as a result of the Reformation. Research every single change that was made. Find the truth in each change. My guess is you will not be able to find valid reasons for those changes. They were made by men against Jesus’ Church that HE promised to guide and protect until the end of the ages. I really don’t think you believe that Jesus lied about protecting His Church, do you? We believe what He said. He didn’t go through all of that, teach the apostles all that He taught them, found a Church on them, promise to always protect her, die on the Cross for our sins, and then just leave her to fail. That just doesn’t make sense. Every Church split off of her is not Jesus’ Church and was started by a man for his own ideology/interpretation/reasons. What is so sad, is that there was never a reason for the Reformation. The Church fixed the problems of the dishonest sales of indulgenses and similar issues. I think they were already corrected and life was good before the Reformation actually happened.

You probably don’t believe what we are telling you because you have had different beliefs/ideology/interpretation of Scripture taught to you, so the Catholic Church has to seem wrong. We aren’t. We are the original Church. We were given the original teachings. We taught those very teachings the way Jesus commanded us to and protected all the way through penning the Bible, through to today. So, please believe us when we say that we have made no changes to Jesus’ Deposit of Faith. If you don’t like some of our disciplines, or symbolism, that is ok. But, those don’t mean that the Catholic Church has ever taught false doctrine or wrong about things in the ways that I think it is being taught.

Men are fallible. Individual interpretation will always lead to different interpretations and that is wrong. Sola Scriptura was not a doctrine - ever in the Church. Individual interpretation was specifically taught as something you shouldn’t do in the Bible and not part of the Church until it was created in the 1500’s by Luther. OSAS was also an invention by man in the 1500’s or later. It never had a place, ever, in the Church (still doesn’t) up until the Reformation. These practices and doctrine have only existed for 500 years and were created by the men who ushered in the Reformation. The ECF’s, all the theologans, and all of the Christians never pieced together these beliefs from Scripture. They just didn’t exist. If they were Biblical, they would have been figured out long before the 1500’s.

Anyway, I don’t exactly know why I am typing all of this to you, but I felt the need to do it. …

Thank you for reading it, and I pray that you have an open mind to consider what we are trying to teach you and the willingness to do the research yourself instead of listening and believing interpretations and teachings of man who are teaching from Churches that were founded as a result of the Reformation and thus are not part of the original Church. With the varying interpretations and teachings out there, it is even more important to figure out which Church is the correct interpreter of Christ’s teachings. He only gave one Deposit of Faith and it only has One interpretation. Good luck on your spiritual journey.

God Bless,
AFH

Thank you for your fine post. I doubt that it will be of much use to ja4, as he is not here to learn but to detract and bring calumny. However, there may be many lurkers who will benefit from your words. I do ask that you join me in prayer for ja4 daily, that his deep wounds of the heart may be healed, so that the light of Christ might enter in.

 

[guanophore]

Respect is one thing and honor is another.

If this is so important why is there no exhortation in the NT to specifically honor Mary?

Or better, why do you exclude Mary from all the NT reference to give respect and honor?

Did any of the apostles in their writings mention anything about honoring Mary? Do we see them honoring her?

Indeed, but you cannot see it because you have your anti-Catholic blinders on. It prevents you from understanding what is written the way it is intended by the authors.

Indeed the Apostles did honor Mary. John took her into his home after the crucifixion, and she was with the Apostles at every important event, including with the birth of the Church on Pentecost.

I have always thought that Mary did not go to the tomb on Sunday because she was the ONLY one that truly understood that Jesus would not be there. I think He appeared to her separately after His resurrection, and probably before He appeared to the women at the tomb, and the Apostles.

Being blessed and honoring are 2 different things. Mary was blessed for her part. Honoring has to do with something else.

Well, it may for you, but it does not for Catholics. We honor Mary because God raised her up, and blessed her among women.

She was blessed but the facts of Scripture don’t support her being a perpetual virgin.

I think it seems this way to you because you are reading the words in a state where you are separated from the Apostolic Tradition that produced them. Therefore, it is easy to misunderstand the writers intention.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The facts of Scripture seemed to support Mary’s perpetual virginity for 1500 years to all Christians. Even the first ‘founders’ of Protestant groups --using those Scriptures–had that belief.

And then, ’ some men’ made a change in that belief. And some men ‘fell away’ from the true teachings of the Scriptures.

And we know what Scripture says about those who 'preach a different gospel. . ."

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4058543
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If this is so important why is there no exhortation in the NT to specifically honor Mary?

guanophore
Or better, why do you exclude Mary from all the NT reference to give respect and honor?

What references?

 

[justasking4]

The facts of Scripture seemed to support Mary’s perpetual virginity for 1500 years to all Christians. Even the first ‘founders’ of Protestant groups --using those Scriptures–had that belief.

And then, ’ some men’ made a change in that belief. And some men ‘fell away’ from the true teachings of the Scriptures.

And we know what Scripture says about those who 'preach a different gospel. . ."

You bring up some interesting points. Are the Marian dogmas part of the gospel that must be believed to be saved?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m glad you noticed. Why not address what I said before trying to introduce another topic? Tell you what, since the Perpetual Virginity is only tangentially related to the original topic of this thread, let’s take it to a separate thread. . .and we will discuss the Perpetual Virginity. I don’t think you are ready for the Marian dogmas or many other Catholic teachings because you don’t have the ‘basics’ down yet. It would be like asking a 6 month old to eat a 10 course banquet --the child would not be able to handle that at the age of 6 months and would need to grow and develop over quite some time (years in fact) until he would be able to handle that banquet. Gotta stick with the ‘milk’ for a while yet. . .it’s important for the digestion.

 

[guanophore]

What references?

“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.” Rom 2:9-11

“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10

" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13:7

“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” Eph 6:1-3

" So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me "
Phil 2:29-30

“Honor widows who are real widows.” 1 Tim 5:3

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18

“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Posted a new thread to deal with the Perpetual Virginity of Mary:

here is the link. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4058762#post4058762

 

[justasking4]

I’m glad you noticed. Why not address what I said before trying to introduce another topic? Tell you what, since the Perpetual Virginity is only tangentially related to the original topic of this thread, let’s take it to a separate thread. . .and we will discuss the Perpetual Virginity. I don’t think you are ready for the Marian dogmas or many other Catholic teachings because you don’t have the ‘basics’ down yet. It would be like asking a 6 month old to eat a 10 course banquet --the child would not be able to handle that at the age of 6 months and would need to grow and develop over quite some time (years in fact) until he would be able to handle that banquet. Gotta stick with the ‘milk’ for a while yet. . .it’s important for the digestion.

What are the"milk" teachings of the catholic church? Can you give me a couple of examples?

 

[vee8]

I found something by Martin Luther our Protestant brothers and sisters might be interested in.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. —Martin Luther, Sermon, Christmas, 1529.

So if the father of Protestantism said Mary is the Mother of us all why don’t you guys listen to him?

(Edited as off topic)

%between%

 

[guanophore]

What are the"milk" teachings of the catholic church? Can you give me a couple of examples?

Those things contained in the creed. The nature of Christ, his body, salvation, the nature of the incarnation. Several areas that you have stubbornly resisted for almost two years.

 

[guanophore]

I found something by Martin Luther our Protestant brothers and sisters might be interested in.
So if the father of Protestantism said Mary is the Mother of us all why dont you guys listen to him?

They just say he was a catholic so long, he was still contaminated by the errors of Catholicism.

Google it. Read wikipedia do your own research.first then after doing so if you have questions ask using specific sources form church teachings like the catechism etc. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

ja4 is really not here to learn about Catholicism. He already has made up his mind about Catholicism. He is just here to try to convince us poor lost Catholics that we are on the road to perdition.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread has been pruned of off topic posts and if it departs from topic again it will be closed.
MF

 

[Always_For_Him]

She was blessed but the facts of Scripture don’t support her being a perpetual virgin.

That’s amazing that you could say that because all three pillars of the Reformation, Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, believed in Mary being a perpetual virgin. This belief was included in the founding of the Protestant Church. What happened to it over the last 500 years?

 

[Joey_13]

There is no totle of “Trinity” either, but I’ll bet you use it all the time.

Christ is the “head” of the Church: Colossians 1:18
Mary gave birth to Christ: Luke 2

Mary is mother of the Church, which is Christ’s Body

This is true and also when Christ was on the cross didn’t he tell John take care of your Mother? Aren’t we one big family? I don’t think that Christ wanted us to be a bunch of individuals not just blindly walking through life.

 

[Church_Militant]

Was the family pursued by someone? Take a look at Matthew 2:13-14

What? Do you suppose that Herod’s killers didn’t.? What part of “fled” doesn’t register with you?

This kind of interpretation goes far beyond what the texts say. For one as i’m sure you know even when Jesus gave the care of His mother did He say she was now the mother of the church nor do any of the apostles in their writings ever refer to her as such.

So? Show me that everything that Christians believe has to specifically come from the Bible from the Bible and then I’ll worry about that.

I have yet to find the cases made by SS proponents convincing.

That has not been demonstrated so far by what you have written.

I shouldn’t have to since most Christians are well aware of this. Take for example the prophecy that a virgin will conceive. There’s clearly a double fulfillment of that.

I ask you again. Where in the NT is this title–“Queen of heaven” used of Mary?

And again I ask you where it says that it has to be there? Don’t try to hold me to an unscriptural standard JA4.

i’m kind of dense as you know. Please clarify what you are saying.

Tell me what you think I’m saying. Frankly, I think you’re “playing dumb”.

How does this follow? Even if a pagan king claimed such a thing that would not mean he is in fact the King of Kings when such a title rightly applies only to God.

Exactly! In fact the Bible itself calls some of them that! Then how can the title of the Blessed Virgin be condemned with that same fallacious reasoning?

Not sure what you mean here.

See above…

i’m not asking for you to adhere to Sola Scriptura but is there a title for Mary in the NT like you are advocating in the Scriptures? Do the Scriptures teach that Christians are to honor her as queen of heaven?

Yes you are. The Bible is not the only authoritative standard on this issue and no Catholic, (and in fact no Christian prior to the “Reformation”) ever taught that it did.

i think not.

You think wrong then.

There certainly are some simliarities between the two.

Hogwash! Prove this piece of a-C propaganda or retract the statement and apoloigize for the polemic.

If there was any such proof, then you’d have provided it LONG before now. I defy you on this one JA4.

agreed.

The analogy applies to the case here of the two queens of heaven.

To use one of your phrases —your argument is weak. To think that not one of the disciples who knew her best ever refers to her as their mother shows that the first disciples never thought of her like this.

If you say so, but I believe that there is a better reason that this is the case. From my blog article on why I believe in the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Jesus would no doubt protect his mother from the terrible persecutions that followed. You will notice that there is no record of Mary’s death or where she went after the day of Pentecost, though we do know that she went home to live with St. John after Our Lord’s death right? We know that St. John was the last of the apostles to die and that at one point he was miraculously saved by God when being boiled in oil for his faith…yet he never mentions Mary in his letters but there’s just no way that he wouldn’t have known her fate…that just doesn’t make any sense.

I think that the NT is so silent about the Blessed Virgin because they all agreed to protect her. Can you imagine the PR blitz that would’ve occurred if the Jews or Romans could have found and tortured and killed the mother of this Jesus?

The problem is that there is no support for your assertion here that Mary is the mother of the church.

Not so. Revelation 12 does indeed call her the church’s mother when it says, “17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

i do.

Then why do you reject clearly Biblical Christian teachings that just happen to contradict the modern teachings of men that you have been asserting to us? If the scriptures teach that the authority over all Christians is the church and not the Bible (and it does indeed teach that!) then that’s your first fundamental error in belief, and all the rest of this just devolves from that first error.

You have yet to demonstrate from the Scriptures that Mary is to be honored like a parent.

Which part of the 4th commandment do you not get JA4?

Until then…

From your keyboard to God’s eyes!

Are you saying you have some kind of relationship with them that you and them communicate back and forth?

Are your parents still living?

If not do you ever visit their graves? If so, what do you do?

 

[Church_Militant]

She was blessed but the facts of Scripture don’t support her being a perpetual virgin.

Again…Hogwash!
The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.