How and why to pray through Mary?

[guanophore]

She was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (verse 6), or that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17).
None of these things are said in the gospels.

You know, the hardness of your heart and mind continually astonish me. What do you think lies between Bethlehem and Egypt? Do you think it is rain forest?

Rev 12:17
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

It makes the most sense when the event at the foot of the cross is understood according to Apostolic Teaching. Since Jesus, through John, gave His mother to all Christians, then all who are brothers and sisters of Christ, who keep the commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus, are adopted as heirs, and share in HIs sonship, and therefore, share in the gift of His mother.

Do the Scriptures command us to worship these kings who use such titles for themselves?

Such a question implies that Catholics “worship” Mary.

It is right to worship God Who does rightly have these titles applied to Himself.
Now show me where we are to honor Mary as the queen of heaven from Scripture.

You have been shown. You deny it. However, scripture only lightly reflects the Church’s understanding of the mother of the Lord. Most of this practice comes from carrying on the Sacred Tradition passed on to us from the Apostles.

No. How does it follow that you should honor her 2000 years later when she is not your mother?

We believe that Jesus adopted us, and that we are His brothers and sisters, and that we share the gift of His mother.

He promised that those who believe in Him would have many mothers and fathers, etc. Beginning with His own.

(We know from Scripture that she is never referred to as anyone’s mother but to Jesus and His brothers and sisters. No other writers in the NT ever refer to her as the anyone else’ mother).

What do you think He meant when He told John “there is your mother”?

Mary had no other biological children, only spiritual.

No i can’t since the Scriptures never teach anyone to honor Mary as their mother.
Does the Catholic church teach that a son or daughter of a deceased parent are to continue to honor them? If so, how?

You are right. Scripture does not “teach”. People teach. Your people have taught you things that represent a separation from the Apostolic Tradition. Apparently, when scriptures indicate that we should honor our elders in the faith, you disregard that also. What is so difficult for you about giving honor? Such difficulty reflects the wounded soul of a person that has been dishonored.

Why would one stop honoring one who had passed from this life to the next? Do you think we should speak ill of the dead, since they are no longer attached to their ears?

The idea that one should stop honoring a parent who is deceased is indicative of someone who was mistreated by them, and instead of being able to have any good to appreciate, is actually relieved that they are dead.

 

[guanophore]

How would praying about something make it true?

Prayer is to make us true, not the revelation of God, which is already true. Prayer opens the heart and mind to receive the revelation. Prayer helps us to understand things the way God does.

Mormons ask me the same question about Mormonism and i get a burning feeling in my bosom that means its true. Would you accept that as confirmation that Mormonism is indeed true?

No, but I do understand that they are trying to draw off an Apostolic Teaching. The burning/insight must be accompanied by confirmation by Apostolic Teaching, which is what Mormon’s lack.

If you study church history you will find at times the church was wrong about a number of things. Just because something has been believed for a long time does not mean its true.

No, we will not find this, ja4. This is one of the elementary doctrines to which you need to confine yourself until you have it mastered. The Church has Christ as her head, and the Holy Spirit as her Soul. It is these divine elements of the Church that prevent the Church from error. The infallibility of the Church is not based in the fallilble persons attached to the Head, but the divine elements of the Church.

If you take the position that the Church fell into error, then you need to explain why Jesus and the Spirit were weak, or uncaring, in allowing this to happen after it was promised that it would not.

This still not would mean its from her. In fact the Scriptures warn about relying on miracles and wonders as a support for the truth. We see in Matthew 24:24 with this warning:“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

This is very interesting. On another thread, you are arguing that the Real Presence is not true because there are no miracles to support it. Seems like you can make a 180 flip flop anywhere, as long as you end up in the anti-Catholic result!

On the contrary, we know them by their fruits, and we can see that the Apparitions of Mary that are approved by the Church have nothing but good fruit.

i can’t answer for other protestants about this but i suspect it has a lot to do with what the Scriptures do and don’t teach. Take Fatima. How does the know Catholic church know with absolute certainty that it was Mary appearing to the 3 young children and not something or someone else?

This is a very good question, and one which has very specific and well researched answers. However, it would require a new thread. I would start one, but I know that the whole inquiry is disingenuous. I know you have already made up your mind that this is not of God.

 

[guanophore]

I can understand in the historical context in which Jesus lived He would honor His mother.

What makes you think He would stop this after He left the timeline of history?

What i don’t understand on what grounds catholics honor her in the same sense since she is not your mother.

If you wish to refuse the great gift that Jesus gave in sharing HIs mother with us, that is your perogative. But why do you wish to separate others from this great gift? This divisiveness and denial of Jesus’ gift bespeaks of a deep motherwound. Actually, a relationship with Mary does miracles of healing for those who have not had a healthy relationship with their own birth mother, or other mother figures.

Mark 10:28-31
29 Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age — houses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutions — and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.”

How do you imagine that we get these “mothers”, if it is not spiritual adoption?

In fact there is no such title for her in the NT of her being even the mother of the church.

What defines the Church is one of those elementary doctrines that you are lacking.

Rev 12:17
7 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

Catholics are those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

The Woman is she who gave birth to the Son of God. Those who keep His commandments are “the rest of her children”.

When John wrote his gospel, he deliberately disguised himself as the author. He stood in for every disciple that comes to the foot of the cross, and received His mother on behalf of all of us. You don’t have to participate in standing at the foot of the cross with Mary, or to receive her into your heart and home like John did. But why thwart the desire of others to embrace her?

If you can get others to join you in your rejection of spiritual motherhood, will it somehow justify the fact that the wound has not healed?

Being “blessed” and “honored” are 2 different concepts. Mary was indeed blessed because of her part in the salavation of the world. However this does not mean we are to honor her since the Scriptures never command such a thing for her from us.

I agree that blessed and honored are different. However, does it not make sense to honor those who have been blessed by God?

“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.” Rom 2:9-11

Do you think that Mary did not “do good”? How will she get the honor that He promised?

“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10

How does such instruction prevent showing honor to Mary? Why should she be exempt?

" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13:7

How does honor become “due”? Jesus said “blessed is the one who hears the Word, and obeys it”. Mary did this, and therefore, deserves honor.

“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” Eph 6:1-3

Does this somehow “prohibit” honoring the mother or father of others?

" So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me " Phil 2:29-30

If this man is to be honored for risking his life for the ministry, how much more Mary, who stood by her son to the bitter end. She may well have been put to death for refusing to leave His side.

“Honor widows who are real widows.” 1 Tim 5:3

since Joseph had died by the time Jesus was crucified, is she not considered a “real widow”? She lost her husband and her son. If she were not due honor for any other reason, wouldn’t this do?

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18

Do you imagine that Mary did not teach others about Christ? How do you think those birth stories ended up in the gospels? Since Mary was the only one there that could have told the tale, don’t you imagine they learned it from her? Luke, who has the most detailed birth stories, was in Ephesus with Paul where Mary lived with John. Do you imagine that Luke did not interview her, and carefully record all of her accounts?

“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7

If no other honor could be gleaned, should Mary not be honored for the outcome of her life, and the solidness of her faith? Why would we imitate the faith of someone who was not honorable?

Jesus was under obligation to keep the commandment of honoring His father and mother just as all Christians are to honor their parents if they are alive in this world.

And how great an opportunity for us, who can honor his mother, and therefore, offer HIm the gift of our obedience.

 

[Always_For_Him]

If you study church history you will find at times the church was wrong about a number of things. Just because something has been believed for a long time does not mean its true.

Hi ja4,
I want to ask you what the “number of things” that the Church was wrong about specifically are. This statement by you seems to be a prevailing statement by non-Catholics. Is it because your Church has taught you that the Catholics were wrong about a number of things, so the need for the Reformation? I know it isn’t just one answer for why, but I just don’t get it.

People are wrong about things. People are fallible no matter what Church they belong to. BUT, in matters of Faith and Morals given in Jesus’ Deposit of Faith through Oral and Sacred Tradition, the “people” men of the Early Church through today cannot err. They are protected from teaching error. The Catholic Church has kept error away from it’s teachings for 2,000 years now. We didn’t give in and let error in. I know that this is not what you believe, because you have been taught that Scripture means something else, and that Catholics are idol worshipers, and that Catholics only believe works will get us to heaven, and that we were so bad, that it caused Luther and the other Reformers to leave her and found their own Churches. That is not the case. All of the documentation is there for you to study. Reform had begun 200 years before Trent and it was in regards to the sale of indulgences and other agregious actions of men. The reasons for the Reformation weren’t over Catholic doctrine or dogma, or the Catholic Church’s teachings or interpretation of Scripture. Just read Luther’s 95 Theses, that will explain a lot.

I want to ask you to research the Early Church Fathers teachings and writings to prove or disprove the differences in beliefs, the original interpretation of Scripture and how it changed as a result of the Reformation. Research how the Bible changed as a result of the Reformation. Research every single change that was made. Find the truth in each change. My guess is you will not be able to find valid reasons for those changes. They were made by men against Jesus’ Church that HE promised to guide and protect until the end of the ages. I really don’t think you believe that Jesus lied about protecting His Church, do you? We believe what He said. He didn’t go through all of that, teach the apostles all that He taught them, found a Church on them, promise to always protect her, die on the Cross for our sins, and then just leave her to fail. That just doesn’t make sense. Every Church split off of her is not Jesus’ Church and was started by a man for his own ideology/interpretation/reasons. What is so sad, is that there was never a reason for the Reformation. The Church fixed the problems of the dishonest sales of indulgenses and similar issues. I think they were already corrected and life was good before the Reformation actually happened.

You probably don’t believe what we are telling you because you have had different beliefs/ideology/interpretation of Scripture taught to you, so the Catholic Church has to seem wrong. We aren’t. We are the original Church. We were given the original teachings. We taught those very teachings the way Jesus commanded us to and protected all the way through penning the Bible, through to today. So, please believe us when we say that we have made no changes to Jesus’ Deposit of Faith. If you don’t like some of our disciplines, or symbolism, that is ok. But, those don’t mean that the Catholic Church has ever taught false doctrine or wrong about things in the ways that I think it is being taught.

Men are fallible. Individual interpretation will always lead to different interpretations and that is wrong. Sola Scriptura was not a doctrine - ever in the Church. Individual interpretation was specifically taught as something you shouldn’t do in the Bible and not part of the Church until it was created in the 1500’s by Luther. OSAS was also an invention by man in the 1500’s or later. It never had a place, ever, in the Church (still doesn’t) up until the Reformation. These practices and doctrine have only existed for 500 years and were created by the men who ushered in the Reformation. The ECF’s, all the theologans, and all of the Christians never pieced together these beliefs from Scripture. They just didn’t exist. If they were Biblical, they would have been figured out long before the 1500’s.

Anyway, I don’t exactly know why I am typing all of this to you, but I felt the need to do it.

Thank you for reading it, and I pray that you have an open mind to consider what we are trying to teach you and the willingness to do the research yourself instead of listening and believing interpretations and teachings of man who are teaching from Churches that were founded as a result of the Reformation and thus are not part of the original Church. With the varying interpretations and teachings out there, it is even more important to figure out which Church is the correct interpreter of Christ’s teachings. He only gave one Deposit of Faith and it only has One interpretation. Good luck on your spiritual journey.

God Bless,
AFH

 

[Church_Militant]

She was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (verse 6)

,Did you forget that the Holy Family fled into Egypt after the birth of Our Lord?

or that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17).
None of these things are said in the gospels.

That would apply to the persecution of all believers if as we already know, Our Lord gave Mary to St. John and all the church as mother as one of His last acts from the cross.

Remember also that as with many prophecies in scripture there are multiple applications and fulfillments.

Jesus is referred to with this title in Revelations 19:16.

I know, but that title also was used for pagan god-emperors. Can’t you see the fallacy of that errant thinking about Mary as Queen of Heaven?

Yes

Me too.

Do the Scriptures command us to worship these kings who use such titles for themselves?

Are you kidding? You don’t see the point?

Just because the title was used for idols or for pagan god-emperors doesn’t invalidate it. If you apply this kind of messed up logic then you have to reject the King of Kings title as well for the same reason.

If not, then using that sort of thinking to allege invalidation of the title for the Blessed Virgin is equally fallacious and wrong.

It is right to worship God Who does rightly have these titles applied to Himself.
Now show me where we are to honor Mary as the queen of heaven from Scripture.

Sorry, I don’t play Sola Scriptura, so everything that I believe doesn’t have to come from the Bible, but the fact is that your argument is weak and has no valid application since the Blessed Virgin Mary and the idol that Jeremiah refers to are two completely different things. Mary has nothing whatever in common with the other except for a name.

Example: Everyone pretty much recognizes the name Ted Bundy. Extremely bad dude, and no question about it.

Now if we meet a person moving in next door to us who happens to be named Ted Bundy, does that make him the same evil person, even though they don’t look, talk, or behave in the same way?

No. How does it follow that you should honor her 2000 years later when she is not your mother?

(We know from Scripture that she is never referred to as anyone’s mother but to Jesus and His brothers and sisters. No other writers in the NT ever refer to her as the anyone else’ mother).I’m sorry, but I see her as my mother from the moment Jesus gave her to John at the foot of the cross.

Jesus had no brothers and sisters except some step children that didn’t believe in Him.

And actually St. John does refer to her as the mother of the church in the passage in Revelation 12. Please make up your mind JA4. Do you accept everything in the Bible or not? You really can’t have it both ways, (unless of course you are a Catholic).

No i can’t since the Scriptures never teach anyone to honor Mary as their mother.

As I said, that’s not true. I advise you to stop reading your Bible through the colored lenses of the errors you have been taught and back off and let it objectively speak for itself by the Holy Spirit with a heart willing to believe and follow where ever it leads.

Until then…

Does the Catholic church teach that a son or daughter of a deceased parent are to continue to honor them? If so, how?

Just as when they were living with us. I certainly do my own sainted parents.

 

[Church_Militant]

How would praying about something make it true?

Y’know, if you’re getting so frustrated that you have to resort to obtuse remarks like this then maybe you need to take a break.

You know full well what they meant by this and I’m surprised at you.:ehh:

Mormons ask me the same question about Mormonism and i get a burning feeling in my bosom that means its true. Would you accept that as confirmation that Mormonism is indeed true?

Non sequitur. We are not and never will be Mormons. We’d have to believe in Sola Scriptura to do that.

If you study church history you will find at times the church was wrong about a number of things.

For instance? I know of no doctrinal errors.

Just because something has been believed for a long time does not mean its true.

But when it’s verifiably believed by Christians and affirmed by their writings far longer than the errant teachings of men of some 500 years ago, I’d say go with the early church and not the modern men.

This still not would mean its from her. In fact the Scriptures warn about relying on miracles and wonders as a support for the truth.

Really? Tell me then…what is the scripturally stated sign to watch for to discern whether a prophet’s word is from God or not?

We see in Matthew 24:24 with this warning:“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Yeah, and yet the church approved Marian apparitions have done nothing but encourage loving devotion to her Son and greater holiness in life, not to mention inspiring Catholics to spread the Gospel all over the world.

If, “by their fruits you shall know them”, then here again, one can only praise and glorify God that reached out to us in His mercy and love.

i can’t answer for other protestants about this but i suspect it has a lot to do with what the Scriptures do and don’t teach.

Oh? You mean like Sola Scriptura?

Take Fatima. How does the know Catholic church know with absolute certainty that it was Mary appearing to the 3 young children and not something or someone else?

Gee, lessee…have you ever read about that?

Again…look at the fruits. I’d be careful if I were you lest you find yourself hearing (by the Holy Spirit) the words of “a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, respected by all the people,” who said in Acts 5, “38 And now, therefore, I say to you, refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought; 39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God.”

 

[Joey_13]

Mary adortion is Idolatry. Praying to a dead person! And idolizing her…that is wrong. If only you put as much attention on Jesus and took him off your crosses…He is alive and well and seated at the right hand of God the Father and is the only intercessor to our paryers that we have. He still performs miracles today of healing…HE is the one who went to the cross and hung on a tree and died. HE is the one who died for our sins and not His mother. His blood was spilled to cover our sins. Not his mothers.
This is a church tradition, dogma they have added to keep people interested in a church that other wise was loosing people…Mary is not alive…she is not that little ‘white’ girl. She was of the blood line of David and they were darker in skin color…so was Jesus.
The Apostles and Jesus never told us to put Mary in this place of adoration. She was a normal woman, she was married, she had other children…she sinned just like the rest of us.
She died and her spirit (alone) went into heaven (3rd heaven) to be with God.
Dead people do not hear prayers. Dead people can not answer prayers. Satan laughs every time you pray to Mary because they are empty prayers. They never reach heaven. You have to pray through Jesus and God. They are alive and well.

Ignorant!

 

[Popes_Soldier]

I can understand in the historical context in which Jesus lived He would honor His mother. What i don’t understand on what grounds catholics honor her in the same sense since she is not your mother. In fact there is no such title for her in the NT of her being even the mother of the church…

There is no totle of “Trinity” either, but I’ll bet you use it all the time.

Christ is the “head” of the Church: Colossians 1:18
Mary gave birth to Christ: Luke 2

Mary is mother of the Church, which is Christ’s Body

 

[Des]

This still not would mean its from her. In fact the Scriptures warn about relying on miracles and wonders as a support for the truth. We see in Matthew 24:24 with this warning:“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

You have zero way of testing the Truth unless you’re counting on Scriptures that need to be with certainty, interpreted properly in order to discern this. Fortunately, our guide are the teachings and dogmas of Holy Mother Church.

i can’t answer for other protestants about this but i suspect it has a lot to do with what the Scriptures do and don’t teach. Take Fatima. How does the know Catholic church know with absolute certainty that it was Mary appearing to the 3 young children and not something or someone else?

The Message doesn’t go against Church teachings.

Jesus gave her to all of us at the foot of the cross. She is our heavenly mother.

Good point. It seems odd that Christ would do such a thing just before He died on the Cross. He definitely was wanting to pass off a message there as He did similar when he said: ‘My God My God, why have you forsaken Me’.

You know, the hardness of your heart and mind continually astonish me.

Agreed. Especially when he continues to preach Mary had other children without any biblical evidence to back it up except for the word ‘brother’ which could just as well mean cousin or part Christ’s non biological family.
Justasking, I’m certain many things you have asked and claimed have been answered over and over again by my fellow Catholics on this board so my question is, why are you still here repeating the same things? Do you have some kind of agenda?

Are you kidding? You don’t see the point?

Thanks for the Scriptural verses to back your point up Church Militant. I totally forgot about those.
It’s easy to see there that if a title for someone is abused in one case, it doesn’t mean that there are no other cases for which they can be applied truthfully.

 

[justasking4]

Church Militant;4055083]
Originally Posted by justasking4
She was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (verse 6),

Church Militant
Did you forget that the Holy Family fled into Egypt after the birth of Our Lord?
Was the family pursued by someone? Take a look at Matthew 2:13-14

Quote:justasking4
or that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17).
None of these things are said in the gospels.

Church Militant
That would apply to the persecution of all believers if as we already know, Our Lord gave Mary to St. John and all the church as mother as one of His last acts from the cross.

This kind of interpretation goes far beyond what the texts say. For one as i’m sure you know even when Jesus gave the care of His mother did He say she was now the mother of the church nor do any of the apostles in their writings ever refer to her as such.

Remember also that as with many prophecies in scripture there are multiple applications and fulfillments.

That has not been demonstrated so far by what you have written.

Quote:justasking4
Jesus is referred to with this title in Revelations 19:16.

Church Militant
I know, but that title also was used for pagan god-emperors. Can’t you see the fallacy of that errant thinking about Mary as Queen of Heaven?

I ask you again. Where in the NT is this title–“Queen of heaven” used of Mary?

Quote:justasking4
Yes
Church Militant
Me too.

Quote:justasking4
Do the Scriptures command us to worship these kings who use such titles for themselves?

Church Militant
Are you kidding? You don’t see the point?

i’m kind of dense as you know. Please clarify what you are saying.

Church Militant
Just because the title was used for idols or for pagan god-emperors doesn’t invalidate it. If you apply this kind of messed up logic then you have to reject the King of Kings title as well for the same reason.

How does this follow? Even if a pagan king claimed such a thing that would not mean he is in fact the King of Kings when such a title rightly applies only to God.

If not, then using that sort of thinking to allege invalidation of the title for the Blessed Virgin is equally fallacious and wrong.

Not sure what you mean here.

Quote:Church Militant
It is right to worship God Who does rightly have these titles applied to Himself.
Now show me where we are to honor Mary as the queen of heaven from Scripture.

Church Militant
Sorry, I don’t play Sola Scriptura, so everything that I believe doesn’t have to come from the Bible,

i’m not asking for you to adhere to Sola Scriptura but is there a title for Mary in the NT like you are advocating in the Scriptures? Do the Scriptures teach that Christians are to honor her as queen of heaven?

but the fact is that your argument is weak and has no valid application since the Blessed Virgin Mary and the idol that Jeremiah refers to are two completely different things. Mary has nothing whatever in common with the other except for a name.

i think not. There certainly are some simliarities between the two.

Example: Everyone pretty much recognizes the name Ted Bundy. Extremely bad dude, and no question about it.

Now if we meet a person moving in next door to us who happens to be named Ted Bundy, does that make him the same evil person, even though they don’t look, talk, or behave in the same way?

agreed.

Quote:justasking4
No. How does it follow that you should honor her 2000 years later when she is not your mother? (We know from Scripture that she is never referred to as anyone’s mother but to Jesus and His brothers and sisters. No other writers in the NT ever refer to her as the anyone else’ mother).

Church Militant
I’m sorry, but I see her as my mother from the moment Jesus gave her to John at the foot of the cross.

To use one of your phrases —your argument is weak. To think that not one of the disciples who knew her best ever refers to her as their mother shows that the first disciples never thought of her like this.

Jesus had no brothers and sisters except some step children that didn’t believe in Him.

And actually St. John does refer to her as the mother of the church in the passage in Revelation 12.

The problem is that there is no support for your assertion here that Mary is the mother of the church.

Please make up your mind JA4. Do you accept everything in the Bible or not? You really can’t have it both ways, (unless of course you are a Catholic).

i do.

Quote:justasking4
No i can’t since the Scriptures never teach anyone to honor Mary as their mother.

Church Militant
As I said, that’s not true.

You have yet to demonstrate from the Scriptures that Mary is to be honored like a parent.

I advise you to stop reading your Bible through the colored lenses of the errors you have been taught and back off and let it objectively speak for itself by the Holy Spirit with a heart willing to believe and follow where ever it leads.

Until then…

Quote:justasking4
Does the Catholic church teach that a son or daughter of a deceased parent are to continue to honor them? If so, how?

Church Militant
Just as when they were living with us. I certainly do my own sainted parents.

Are you saying you have some kind of relationship with them that you and them communicate back and forth?

 

[Popes_Soldier]

You have yet to demonstrate from the Scriptures that Mary is to be honored like a parent.

1. Christ obeyed the commandments perfectly, which includes “Honor your Father and Mother”
2. Christians are called to immitate Christ

Voila’. Next?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
You have yet to demonstrate from the Scriptures that Mary is to be honored like a parent.

Popes Soldier

1. Christ obeyed the commandments perfectly, which includes “Honor your Father and Mother”
2. Christians are called to immitate Christ

Voila’. Next?

Jesus was to honor His own mother. That’s what the commandment refers to. This also applies to all Christians who are to honor their parents who are alive. However, that does not mean we are to honor other parents in the same way we honor our own.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4054951]What makes you think He would stop this after He left the timeline of history?

If you wish to refuse the great gift that Jesus gave in sharing HIs mother with us, that is your perogative. But why do you wish to separate others from this great gift? This divisiveness and denial of Jesus’ gift bespeaks of a deep motherwound. Actually, a relationship with Mary does miracles of healing for those who have not had a healthy relationship with their own birth mother, or other mother figures.

Mark 10:28-31
29 Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age — houses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutions — and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.”

How do you imagine that we get these “mothers”, if it is not spiritual adoption?

What defines the Church is one of those elementary doctrines that you are lacking.

Rev 12:17
7 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

Catholics are those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

The Woman is she who gave birth to the Son of God. Those who keep His commandments are “the rest of her children”.

When John wrote his gospel, he deliberately disguised himself as the author. He stood in for every disciple that comes to the foot of the cross, and received His mother on behalf of all of us. You don’t have to participate in standing at the foot of the cross with Mary, or to receive her into your heart and home like John did. But why thwart the desire of others to embrace her?

If you can get others to join you in your rejection of spiritual motherhood, will it somehow justify the fact that the wound has not healed?

I agree that blessed and honored are different. However, does it not make sense to honor those who have been blessed by God?

“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.” Rom 2:9-11

Do you think that Mary did not “do good”? How will she get the honor that He promised?

“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10

How does such instruction prevent showing honor to Mary? Why should she be exempt?

" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13:7

How does honor become “due”? Jesus said “blessed is the one who hears the Word, and obeys it”. Mary did this, and therefore, deserves honor.

“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” Eph 6:1-3

Does this somehow “prohibit” honoring the mother or father of others?

" So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me " Phil 2:29-30

If this man is to be honored for risking his life for the ministry, how much more Mary, who stood by her son to the bitter end. She may well have been put to death for refusing to leave His side.

“Honor widows who are real widows.” 1 Tim 5:3

since Joseph had died by the time Jesus was crucified, is she not considered a “real widow”? She lost her husband and her son. If she were not due honor for any other reason, wouldn’t this do?

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18

Do you imagine that Mary did not teach others about Christ? How do you think those birth stories ended up in the gospels? Since Mary was the only one there that could have told the tale, don’t you imagine they learned it from her? Luke, who has the most detailed birth stories, was in Ephesus with Paul where Mary lived with John. Do you imagine that Luke did not interview her, and carefully record all of her accounts?

“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7

If no other honor could be gleaned, should Mary not be honored for the outcome of her life, and the solidness of her faith? Why would we imitate the faith of someone who was not honorable?

And how great an opportunity for us, who can honor his mother, and therefore, offer HIm the gift of our obedience.
Do you honor other parents the same way you honor your own? Do you consider them your parents to?

 

[justasking4]

You know, the hardness of your heart and mind continually astonish me. What do you think lies between Bethlehem and Egypt? Do you think it is rain forest?

Rev 12:17
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

It makes the most sense when the event at the foot of the cross is understood according to Apostolic Teaching. Since Jesus, through John, gave His mother to all Christians, then all who are brothers and sisters of Christ, who keep the commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus, are adopted as heirs, and share in HIs sonship, and therefore, share in the gift of His mother.

Such a question implies that Catholics “worship” Mary.

You have been shown. You deny it. However, scripture only lightly reflects the Church’s understanding of the mother of the Lord. Most of this practice comes from carrying on the Sacred Tradition passed on to us from the Apostles.

We believe that Jesus adopted us, and that we are His brothers and sisters, and that we share the gift of His mother.

He promised that those who believe in Him would have many mothers and fathers, etc. Beginning with His own.

What do you think He meant when He told John “there is your mother”?

Mary had no other biological children, only spiritual.

You are right. Scripture does not “teach”. People teach. Your people have taught you things that represent a separation from the Apostolic Tradition. Apparently, when scriptures indicate that we should honor our elders in the faith, you disregard that also. What is so difficult for you about giving honor? Such difficulty reflects the wounded soul of a person that has been dishonored.

Why would one stop honoring one who had passed from this life to the next? Do you think we should speak ill of the dead, since they are no longer attached to their ears?

The idea that one should stop honoring a parent who is deceased is indicative of someone who was mistreated by them, and instead of being able to have any good to appreciate, is actually relieved that they are dead.

Do you honor other parents the same way you honor your own? Do you consider them your parents to?

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Jesus was to honor His own mother. That’s what the commandment refers to. This also applies to all Christians who are to honor their parents who are alive. However, that does not mean we are to honor other parents in the same way we honor our own.

I was always taught to respect my elders. Kids aren’t taught that today.

At any rate: If God gave her the greatest honor of all, to be His own mother, how can we honor any less the woman that God chose to honor? If its good enough for God, its certainly good enough for me.

 

[justasking4]

Popes Soldier;4058195]

I was always taught to respect my elders. Kids aren’t taught that today.

Respect is one thing and honor is another.

At any rate: If God gave her the greatest honor of all, to be His own mother, how can we honor any less the woman that God chose to honor? If its good enough for God, its certainly good enough for me.

If this is so important why is there no exhortation in the NT to specifically honor Mary?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

But there is a specific New Testament exhortation to honor Mary.

“All generations shall call me blessed.” Luke, chapter 2.

 

[justasking4]

But there is a specific New Testament exhortation to honor Mary.

“All generations shall call me blessed.” Luke, chapter 2.

Being blessed and honoring are 2 different things. Mary was blessed for her part. Honoring has to do with something else.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Being blessed and honoring are 2 different things. Mary was blessed for her part. Honoring has to do with something else.

We call her the Blessed Virgin. Do you?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, they are not two different things.

So you say that in saying that Mary is blessed among women, you are not giving her ‘honor’ in any way??

Why don’t you honor her? Many men and women were honored in Scripture. Why don’t you honor the Mother of God?

What do you mean when you call her blessed?