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Popes_Soldier
Guest
Thats off topic. There’s a thread for that here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4058762#post4058762
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4058762#post4058762
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GailMac
Guest
Dear Justasking - I see you have been given some very rock solid answers to your many questions. I hope and pray it is the Spirit Himself who is prompting you to ask so many and I also hope and pray that you find your answers within your own breast.
I do still see also your earnest need to have everything “proven” to you from the Scriptures. While love for the Sacred Scriptures is to be commended, I think if you get honest you will see how you are limited.
You state: "i’m not asking for you to adhere to Sola Scriptura but is there a title for Mary in the NT like you are advocating in the Scriptures? Do the Scriptures teach that Christians are to honor her as queen of heaven? " I will attempt to answer this one with a Scripture found in Revelation. This Scripture has already been pointed out to you, but you continue to discount it though, so I don’t expect you to agree with me, but…1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman 2 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation12.htm)
I ask you, do you know of any woman in history who was so clothed? If God Himself can so honor His Mother, who are you to deny her some merely human honor? You must consider this deeply - God crowns Mary with 12 stars, gives her the moon and the sun as her adornment. I also ask if He IS the King of Heaven, why shouldn’t she be His Queen? What exactly does it take from you (other than your status as a protestant) for God to give this honor to His Mother? You of course cannot honor her in the same way as God, but please see in charity the small honors we bestow upon this august Queen of Heaven as our merely human attempts to follow His example. None of us could give her the moon or the sun or the stars, but the love we have for her stirs us to desire the same…
I ask you has your own human heart never been stirred by love? I don’t know if you are married, but if you are, you were asked to honor your wife to be at that time. How would you feel if at the reception following while you gazed adoringly at your new wife, someone burst into the room and accused you to your face of idolatry! and looked at the gifts you laid at the feet of your new spouse, and called them profane things and mocked the love you bore for her? Many of us who have love for Jesus are also given the gift of deep love for His Mother.
And what of the CROWN OF TWELVE STARS? A queen wears a crown! Does it need to be spelled out? Should God have given dictation to St. John at the time of the writing to forestall the doubts about Mary’s queenship to the effect that explanations would be needed for this after the Reformation that surely broke our Savior’s Sacred Heart? I don’t know about you, but if I saw a woman with a crown on her head, I’d think she had some royal blood and would wonder to what country she belonged, etc…It isn’t rocket science. Please have some faith. Maybe if God had given some footnotes, He would have instructed St. John to write: *** please note the crown of stars denotes queenship and royal honors or something silly like that! Just because you don’t acknowelge yet her royalty, doesn’t take it away. If a queen were in the room with you, just because you turn away from her and ignore her crown, doesn’t take her majesty away. Open your eyes AND HEART to the Scriptures. You love God learn to love His Mother.
Peace,
Gail
I do still see also your earnest need to have everything “proven” to you from the Scriptures. While love for the Sacred Scriptures is to be commended, I think if you get honest you will see how you are limited.
You state: "i’m not asking for you to adhere to Sola Scriptura but is there a title for Mary in the NT like you are advocating in the Scriptures? Do the Scriptures teach that Christians are to honor her as queen of heaven? " I will attempt to answer this one with a Scripture found in Revelation. This Scripture has already been pointed out to you, but you continue to discount it though, so I don’t expect you to agree with me, but…1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman 2 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation12.htm)
I ask you, do you know of any woman in history who was so clothed? If God Himself can so honor His Mother, who are you to deny her some merely human honor? You must consider this deeply - God crowns Mary with 12 stars, gives her the moon and the sun as her adornment. I also ask if He IS the King of Heaven, why shouldn’t she be His Queen? What exactly does it take from you (other than your status as a protestant) for God to give this honor to His Mother? You of course cannot honor her in the same way as God, but please see in charity the small honors we bestow upon this august Queen of Heaven as our merely human attempts to follow His example. None of us could give her the moon or the sun or the stars, but the love we have for her stirs us to desire the same…
I ask you has your own human heart never been stirred by love? I don’t know if you are married, but if you are, you were asked to honor your wife to be at that time. How would you feel if at the reception following while you gazed adoringly at your new wife, someone burst into the room and accused you to your face of idolatry! and looked at the gifts you laid at the feet of your new spouse, and called them profane things and mocked the love you bore for her? Many of us who have love for Jesus are also given the gift of deep love for His Mother.
And what of the CROWN OF TWELVE STARS? A queen wears a crown! Does it need to be spelled out? Should God have given dictation to St. John at the time of the writing to forestall the doubts about Mary’s queenship to the effect that explanations would be needed for this after the Reformation that surely broke our Savior’s Sacred Heart? I don’t know about you, but if I saw a woman with a crown on her head, I’d think she had some royal blood and would wonder to what country she belonged, etc…It isn’t rocket science. Please have some faith. Maybe if God had given some footnotes, He would have instructed St. John to write: *** please note the crown of stars denotes queenship and royal honors or something silly like that! Just because you don’t acknowelge yet her royalty, doesn’t take it away. If a queen were in the room with you, just because you turn away from her and ignore her crown, doesn’t take her majesty away. Open your eyes AND HEART to the Scriptures. You love God learn to love His Mother.
Peace,
Gail
J
justasking4
Guest
i’ll have to let you have the last word for now on this since its getting to far off topic…What? Do you suppose that Herod’s killers didn’t.? What part of “fled” doesn’t register with you?So? Show me that everything that Christians believe has to specifically come from the Bible from the Bible and then I’ll worry about that.
I have yet to find the cases made by SS proponents convincing.
I shouldn’t have to since most Christians are well aware of this. Take for example the prophecy that a virgin will conceive. There’s clearly a double fulfillment of that.And again I ask you where it says that it has to be there? Don’t try to hold me to an unscriptural standard JA4.
Tell me what you think I’m saying. Frankly, I think you’re “playing dumb”.Exactly! In fact the Bible itself calls some of them that! Then how can the title of the Blessed Virgin be condemned with that same fallacious reasoning? See above…Yes you are. The Bible is not the only authoritative standard on this issue and no Catholic, (and in fact no Christian prior to the “Reformation”) ever taught that it did.You think wrong then.Hogwash! Prove this piece of a-C propaganda or retract the statement and apoloigize for the polemic.
If there was any such proof, then you’d have provided it LONG before now. I defy you on this one JA4.The analogy applies to the case here of the two queens of heaven. If you say so, but I believe that there is a better reason that this is the case. From my blog article on why I believe in the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.Not so. Revelation 12 does indeed call her the church’s mother when it says, “17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Then why do you reject clearly Biblical Christian teachings that just happen to contradict the modern teachings of men that you have been asserting to us? If the scriptures teach that the authority over all Christians is the church and not the Bible (and it does indeed teach that!) then that’s your first fundamental error in belief, and all the rest of this just devolves from that first error.Which part of the 4th commandment do you not get JA4?From your keyboard to God’s eyes!Are your parents still living?
If not do you ever visit their graves? If so, what do you do?
J
justasking4
Guest
This will have to be the last thing i can say about some of things you bring up since its getting to far off topic. Here is what a Catholic scholar says about Revelations 12
“Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):
a woman: Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.
In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). **The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. **Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.”
C
Contarini
Guest
It sounds as if you have a rather utilitarian, pragmatic approach to prayer. Might I suggest that this isn’t a good thing?
When I looked up at the blue sky this afternoon (it’s a perfect summer day here in Northern Indiana–breezy and sunny but not too hot), I thought how blue is Mary’s color, and I felt love for her. I didn’t particularly “pray to her” or “through her,” I just loved her.
You don’t have to “get something” out of the saints. They are just there–part of God’s glorious creation. Relax. Let yourself worship God by honoring His creatures. Don’t worry if you feel no “need” to ask for the prayers of a saint, but if you find yourself feeling close to one or another saint, don’t feel nervous about expressing this either, any more than you should feel nervous about loving any other part of God’s creation in a holy manner that glorifies God.
In Christ,
Edwin
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Popes_Soldier
Guest
**Can I simplify this conversation a bit? The question, “How and why to pray through Mary?” is answered simply, and it pertains to the Blessed Virgin OR the saints in heaven.
Ask yourself: Why would I ask a friend to pray for me? Protestants ask friends to pray for them all the time. Why?
The answer to that question is the answer to this thread’s question. Its as simple as that. Death does not seperate Chrsiotans, and we are all part of the Body of Christ, whether on eart or in heaven.
All the rest of these sideshow arguments are irrelevant.**
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Ask yourself: Why would I ask a friend to pray for me? Protestants ask friends to pray for them all the time. Why?
The answer to that question is the answer to this thread’s question. Its as simple as that. Death does not seperate Chrsiotans, and we are all part of the Body of Christ, whether on eart or in heaven.
All the rest of these sideshow arguments are irrelevant.**
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J
justasking4
Guest
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davidv
Guest
If the Saints in heaven cannot hear, what are Moses and Elijah doing when they are with Jesus on the mountain?
Actually we get a small glimpse of what it is like as Jesus returned to earth after his resurrection.
I have no idea. Does it matter?
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Popes_Soldier
Guest
The only way a friend’s prayers are effectual when you ask a friend to pray for you is because God makes it so. It is the same here. God makes it so. Trust in the Lord.
Also, Scripture indicates those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us. Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them! In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.
Also, Luke 15:10 says: “In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Now, Angels are pure spirit just as the “spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12: 22-24) are pure spirit now, and the angels are apparently aware of our actions according to this scripture. It seems unlikely that God would let some spirits know things and withold them from other spirits.
J
justasking4
Guest
This passage is not about Jesus praying to Moses and Elijah for their help. Secondly, the appearance of these 2 men was in our world. Thirdly, no writer of the NT ever uses this passage as some kind of prayer passage.
I’m not talking about Jesus in His resurrected body. Do you think then that when people die they get a resurrected body immediately after their deaths?
i have no problem with praying to Jesus since He alone is our High Priest who can deal with all our requests. The Scriptures are absolutely clear about this.
Absolutely. From what i understand about it is that most catholics will have to go there before they are able to be in heaven. This would mean that in this state or place might have some impact on the person there to do something with prayers prayed to them.
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davidv
Guest
I did not say Jesus was praying to them. Were they in conversation with Him? Is hearing part of a conversation? Had they been physically dead for many years?
Obviously you missed my point. I was demonstrating the Saints can hear, even if they are in heaven.
No.
OK
Then you clearly misunderstand the Church’s teaching relative to prayers and those in purgatory. Ours prayer are “for” them, not “to” them.
J
justasking4
Guest
Jesus is not talking to them while they are in heaven but on the earth. Face to face.
Do you think Jesus was praying to them and they heard Him and came to Him on earth?
But you have no way of knowing who is in purgatory though. You have no way to know if a saint etc is in heaven or in purgatory.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
For a **saint, **we do have a way of knowing. The Holy Spirit. You know, the one who is to guide us into All Truth. He reveals to the Church, at His Will, if a given person is absolutely in heaven and to be ‘known’ to be so. . .which is why the Church can pronounce with absolute authority the names of any whom the Holy Spirit has revealed to be such saints.
That’s why Christ instituted A Church and gave us The Spirit to guide us to all Truth and to be able to speak authoritatively of what the Spirit does teach.
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Popes_Soldier
Guest
Yes we do. Thats what the canonization process is all about. When a saint is canonized, the Church makes an infallible pronouncement that this persin IS in heaven. So you can either ask one of them to pray for you, or you can just make a general request, like: “All holy saints of God, please pray for me.”
But, you are on shakey ground if you ask ol’ uncle Joe or aunt Betty to pray for you, I’ll grant you that
J
justasking4
Guest
How does the church know this with certainity? How do you test for such a thing? How would you know your not being decieved?
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
Because it is what Christ promised his Church. Takes faith to believe Him!
J
justasking4
Guest
The Scriptures also warn of false teachers and doctrines. That’s why we are to examine everything carefully. I Thess 5:21
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
Yes it does. You might want to take a look at the Heresies the Catholic Church has fought against.
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Popes_Soldier
Guest
Infallibility is subject matter for another thread.
Every discussion, whether its about Mary, saints, Purgatory, sacraments, etc., always comes down to this one issue. The teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Church is always the bottom line in every discussion, because the discussions always come back to that eventually
I have no need to test these things, because I know that Church Church is infallible in matters of faith and morals. Its the difference between trusting the Church (which we do) or trusting our own personal authority to decide doctrine (which you do)
J
justasking4
Guest
Do you realise that Jesus never promised this?
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