J
justasking4
Guest
Using authority as the only or primary reason to believe something is not enough. You need facts to support the claim and if the facts don’t support the claim no amount of authority can make it true.
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guanophore
Guest
This may be a new tact you have taken when you are bested?
In fact, the answer given you there was the perfect response to the questin in the Title. How and why do we pray through Mary? We do it the way the Apostles and their successors did, because that is part of the infallible Truth that has been handed on to us. God has preserved His Word from error, that Word exists in the God -breathed Church,a nd in the God-breathed Scriptures.
Through those two sources we have prayers by, for, and about Mary that we cherish and continue as we were taught by our elders.
I know, you have said “just because something has been believed for a long time does not make it true”. And, I agree with you .
People believed for a long time that the earth was flat, and that did not make it true. However, what makes the custom of praying through Mary true and right is that it is based on Truth revealed to us by God. Now, eventually it was revealed to us that the earth is round, and I think all truth comes from God, whether by divine revelation or through science. Even so, you are free, and can reject revelation, whether it comes from mystical source or scientific source. You can choose to go on believing that the earth is flat, or that Mary is “dead and can’t hear our prayers”. 
G
guanophore
Guest
Persons who have had severe authority problems in life are accustomed to make such statements. It is very difficult, when one has been abused by authorities, to accept authority.
It seems like somewhat of a relief to cling to “facts”, especially when the so-called authority is purporting things that seem to contradict the facts. This is a common coping skill developed by persons such as myself, and perhaps you also, to endure a very dysfunctional family life.
However, not all authority is corrupt, and most especially, not the authority that Jesus appointed, breathed upon, and promised to preserve. The “facts” in this case come from divine reveleation, and not science, as you would seem to prefer. I don’t believe that you will ever find sufficient scientific “facts” or “proof” to satisfy that it is right to ask the Blessed Mother for her intercession. However, it might be possible for you to avail yourself of the behavioral science needed to determine why it bothers you so much that other people do.
A
Always_For_Him
Guest
Seriously, think about what you just wrote. The Catholic Church uses it’s authority to teach anything, including Marian Dogma, because she HAS that authority. The facts ARE the Words that Jesus gave us, that we understood and wrote down. Would you prefer that it wasn’t written down, and just continued to be only Oral and Sacred Tradition? Writing words always brings an interpretation issue. Written words can have different meanings to each and every person that reads them. THAT is why men broke away from the Catholic Church to found their own Church. That is why hundreds/thousands of men have continued to break away from Churches to found their own Churches.
Let me try a different angle, are you saying that the Catholic Church lost it’s authority at some point, and ALSO forgot (or never knew) the True interpretation of Jesus’ Deposit of Faith? That isn’t in the Bible either. Jesus said He would protect His Church from error until the end of the ages. He NEVER said you don’t have authority and I won’t protect My Church. Didn’t Jesus mean everything He said? Either He didn’t mean it, wasn’t divine enough to be able to hold to His promise, or maybe He just wanted division in His teachings. But that can’t be true because He only taught One Truth, established One Church and wanted everyone UNITED in His Church.
I think that you just REALLY CAN’T, CAN’T, CAN’T face that the Catholic Church HAS (has always had) Jesus’ authority and that they have taught His teachings without error because it would totally hit you like a ton of bricks that you have been believing in teachings and traditions of men. That IS VERY scary. I only hope I could do it if I were in that situation. Many people HAVE finally opened up and accepted the Truth that they had been fighting for so long. So, it can be done. You are getting that scholarship from MANY who finally opened up their minds and hearts to HEAR the Truth revealed to them. Be open to hear the Truth revealed to you. We may write the words, but it will be Jesus that opens your “eyes” to reveal the True meaning of those word.
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guanophore
Guest
I agree with you, but let us also agree in prayer that it is not a “can’t” as God can do all things! Let us pray for one of those miracles of the heart of which one may never see emprical “evidence”!
J
justasking4
Guest
I agree with you, but let us also agree in prayer that it is not a “can’t” as God can do all things! Let us pray for one of those miracles of the heart of which one may never see emprical “evidence”!
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Are you Christ’s Vicar on earth? It’s either you or the Pope, most often in communion with the Church’s Bishops, or else there’s no point in Jesus sending the Paraclete. If it’s any consolation, the canonization of a saint is not within the sphere of papal infallibilty as is a Church dogma.It rests with our hope in Christ’s promise. Only God can read the human heart and ultimately judge who goes to Heaven. Miracles and spiritual wonders in the life of a candidate saint serve as confident signs beckoning their canonization.
PAX
Good Fella
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guanophore
Guest
You know, come to think of it, I would like to see some observable and demonstrable evidence of a change of heart. I would like to see a softening, and openness to instruction, more abstract thinking, and a warm embrace of the Teachings of Jesus. I am sure all these things are measurable, and I would certainly notice a lack of dissention, calumny and detraction immediately. However, even if the change were only in the heart, and you still could role play anti-Catholic bigotry for the sake of show here on CAF, I would be grateful.
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GailMac
Guest
Dear Justasking - I find it ironic that you ask this: “Then how do you explain passages such as 2 Peter 2:1 which warns of false teachers coming into the church itself and decieving?” What exactly do you think Protestantism is? 30,000 different interpretations of the Bible and it’s Truth all leading to what? Ever more and more dissention, uncertainty and backward peddling, each different church claiming for itself it’s own authority. Wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Please don’t take that as a put-down, but you’re right on the money but you don’t see it’s value yet. Please Justasking, see that what we speak to you is spoken in Truth and light. Pray the Apostles’ prayer - it will get you over the hump - Lord, I do believe, heal my unbelief.
Put aside all your arguements for a moment and LISTEN to Him. All He wants is to love you and show you His Way. This IS it. The Church. The one He founded. The one He built for you. He waits…just for you. You’ve come a long way, you’ve only to ask Him.
Peace,
Gail
Please don’t take that as a put-down, but you’re right on the money but you don’t see it’s value yet. Please Justasking, see that what we speak to you is spoken in Truth and light. Pray the Apostles’ prayer - it will get you over the hump - Lord, I do believe, heal my unbelief.
Put aside all your arguements for a moment and LISTEN to Him. All He wants is to love you and show you His Way. This IS it. The Church. The one He founded. The one He built for you. He waits…just for you. You’ve come a long way, you’ve only to ask Him.
Peace,
Gail
J
justasking4
Guest
All churches that claim Christ have to be on guard against false teachers. There is no divine protection against them but being on guard…
J
justasking4
Guest
Jesus never said He would protect the church in this way. He warned of false teachers as does Paul and Peter. Both of them warn that they would come into the church itself and deceive many.
There is a lot here that we can’t go into right now because of topic restrictions.
I have never claimed the Catholic Church does not have authority. It is not the ultimate authority though. Any human authority (including those that claim divine authority) can err. This is why I base what I believe in matters of Christian doctrine and practice on the Scriptures. If a teaching or practice does not line up with the inspired-inerrant Word of God it is either not binding or false.
G
GailMac
Guest
Dear Justasking -
Psalm 127 -
1 A song of ascents. Of Solomon. Unless the LORD build the house, they labor in vain who build. Unless the LORD guard the city, in vain does the guard keep watch.
2 It is vain for you to rise early and put off your rest at night, To eat bread earned by hard toil-- all this God gives to his beloved in sleep.
3 Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward.
4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children born in one’s youth.
5 Blessed are they whose quivers are full. They will never be shamed contending with foes at the gate.
And again Psalm 122 -
A song of ascents. Of David. 1 I rejoiced when they said to me, “Let us go to the house of the LORD.”
2 And now our feet are standing within your gates, Jerusalem.
3 Jerusalem, built as a city, walled round about.
4 Here the tribes have come, the tribes of the LORD, As it was decreed for Israel, to give thanks to the name of the LORD.
5 Here are the thrones of justice, the thrones of the house of David.
6 For the peace of Jerusalem pray: “May those who love you prosper!
7 May peace be within your ramparts, prosperity within your towers.”
8 For family and friends I say, “May peace be yours.”
9 For the house of the LORD, our God, I pray, “May blessings be yours.”
And one more Psalm 125 - 1 A song of ascents. 1 Like Mount Zion are they who trust in the LORD, unshakable, forever enduring.
2 As mountains surround Jerusalem, the LORD surrounds his people both now and forever.
3 The scepter of the wicked will not prevail in the land given to the just, Lest the just themselves turn their hands to evil.
4 Do good, LORD, to the good, to those who are upright of heart.
5 But those who turn aside to crooked ways may the LORD send down with the wicked. Peace upon Israel!
That’s the Church God is talking about. Think about it, please.
Peace,
Gail
P.S. The peace the Lord gives is just a few prayers and some re-education away! Why wait any longer?
Psalm 127 -
1 A song of ascents. Of Solomon. Unless the LORD build the house, they labor in vain who build. Unless the LORD guard the city, in vain does the guard keep watch.
2 It is vain for you to rise early and put off your rest at night, To eat bread earned by hard toil-- all this God gives to his beloved in sleep.
3 Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward.
4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children born in one’s youth.
5 Blessed are they whose quivers are full. They will never be shamed contending with foes at the gate.
And again Psalm 122 -
A song of ascents. Of David. 1 I rejoiced when they said to me, “Let us go to the house of the LORD.”
2 And now our feet are standing within your gates, Jerusalem.
3 Jerusalem, built as a city, walled round about.
4 Here the tribes have come, the tribes of the LORD, As it was decreed for Israel, to give thanks to the name of the LORD.
5 Here are the thrones of justice, the thrones of the house of David.
6 For the peace of Jerusalem pray: “May those who love you prosper!
7 May peace be within your ramparts, prosperity within your towers.”
8 For family and friends I say, “May peace be yours.”
9 For the house of the LORD, our God, I pray, “May blessings be yours.”
And one more Psalm 125 - 1 A song of ascents. 1 Like Mount Zion are they who trust in the LORD, unshakable, forever enduring.
2 As mountains surround Jerusalem, the LORD surrounds his people both now and forever.
3 The scepter of the wicked will not prevail in the land given to the just, Lest the just themselves turn their hands to evil.
4 Do good, LORD, to the good, to those who are upright of heart.
5 But those who turn aside to crooked ways may the LORD send down with the wicked. Peace upon Israel!
That’s the Church God is talking about. Think about it, please.
Peace,
Gail
P.S. The peace the Lord gives is just a few prayers and some re-education away! Why wait any longer?
J
justasking4
Guest
Do you trust everything your church has done through the centuries?
G
GailMac
Guest
Dear Justasking -
I Trust God.
Peace,
Gail
I Trust God.
Peace,
Gail
G
guanophore
Guest
Wow. What you are saying is that Jesus contradicted His promise, and did leave us orphans!
Any purely human institution is bound to fail sooner or later. The reason that the Church will continue to the end of the age is because it has divine protection. I am sad that you do not know/feel this for yourself.
We also have the angels and saints to do battle on our behalf, and most especially, our mama wears combat boots.
She crushes the head of the serpent. If that is not divine intervention, I don’t know what is!
Well, we read it differently.
It’s okay, ja4. We know you are here, and we are on guard! :knight2:
I encourage you to follow that link about proving the uterine brothers of Jesus. There is a lot of that discussion over there.
I agree. It is only that the authority comes from Christ, and is divine, that it is valid and ultimate. This statement represents one of the misconceptions you have about the nature of the Church, which is preventing you from grasping the corollary doctrines such as Mary’s intercession. If you don’t understand the nature of the Church, and the communion of saints, it is pretty impossible to understand intercession.
The problem with this is that everyone interprets the scriptures differently, so that we get a myriad of different ideas about what is binding. Whether people are alive in heaven, for example, or whether it is right to celebrate sabbath on SAturday or Sunday. That is why Jesus left people in charge, instead of a book.
P
Popes_Soldier
Guest
Taught? As far as doctrine and dogma goes? YES !!
Done outside of that, as far as everyday activities? No. We are all sinners and we all make mistakes, from me all the way up to the pope. Its no secret that there have been corrupt popes. All men are sinners. But no pope has ever taught heresy “ex cathedra.” The Holy Spirit won’t allow it. Same goes for “eccumenical” councils.
We are in good company too. St Peter cut off a guys ear, denied Christ three times, and was a general pain. But at a time of God’s choosing, he wrote infallible scripture. Do you expect us to be holier than Peter and the rest of the apostles?
Come on man, use your head
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, either Christ is the Messiah, or a liar.
Either He spoke the truth (and what He wanted written was written and is truth) or He didn’t.
Either we have the Holy Spirit with us now, carrying on that truth, and have some way of knowing that it is true (oh yes! I remember now! Scripture told us when in doubt to go to the church which is the pillar and foundation of truth! So there is a pillar and foundation of truth that I can trust, unreservedly, because Scripture–the written word of God–tells me so. And I know also that this Church was established specifically by Christ. And I know this Church was established with the words, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”)
So I know that Christ left us a guide, and a foundation, and a written word. . .and that He promised us that this foundation would never fail and would be His Church and we would be His Body, and that all would be ‘one’, just as He was One in the Father.
Now let’s look around. We know that we can’t just look around for the Written Word alone. We have to have more. We know we cannot look for the Spirit alone, or the Spirit and the Word alone. We have to have more. We know we must find all three–The Word, the Spirit, and the Church–because the foundation–the Church–was what the Spirit was going to protect and guide, and the Word was one of the two main means the Spirit was going to have as a tool to help us be guarded and guided.
So. . .we need a Church with the Spirit and the Word. . .a Church that is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. . .a visible, and not ‘invisible’ church.
Hmmm. . .wait for it. . .
I know!
It’s the Catholic Church!!!
Either He spoke the truth (and what He wanted written was written and is truth) or He didn’t.
Either we have the Holy Spirit with us now, carrying on that truth, and have some way of knowing that it is true (oh yes! I remember now! Scripture told us when in doubt to go to the church which is the pillar and foundation of truth! So there is a pillar and foundation of truth that I can trust, unreservedly, because Scripture–the written word of God–tells me so. And I know also that this Church was established specifically by Christ. And I know this Church was established with the words, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”)
So I know that Christ left us a guide, and a foundation, and a written word. . .and that He promised us that this foundation would never fail and would be His Church and we would be His Body, and that all would be ‘one’, just as He was One in the Father.
Now let’s look around. We know that we can’t just look around for the Written Word alone. We have to have more. We know we cannot look for the Spirit alone, or the Spirit and the Word alone. We have to have more. We know we must find all three–The Word, the Spirit, and the Church–because the foundation–the Church–was what the Spirit was going to protect and guide, and the Word was one of the two main means the Spirit was going to have as a tool to help us be guarded and guided.
So. . .we need a Church with the Spirit and the Word. . .a Church that is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. . .a visible, and not ‘invisible’ church.
Hmmm. . .wait for it. . .
I know!
It’s the Catholic Church!!!
A
Always_For_Him
Guest
You are ignoring Scripture - JESUS’s actual words, if you have to deny Jesus promised to guide and protect His Church
Jesus set up a governing system to run His Church the way He saw fit. Humans can error. Although, the Pope, all popes, have never errored on teaching/protecting Jesus’ Deposit of Faith. He promised that HE wouldn’t let that happen, and He has not let that happen. Your teaching and practice does not line up with the inspired-inerrant Word of God that was written for you by the Catholic Church. Your belief system came 1500-1800 years after Christ. Do you have some insight into the meaning of Scripture that the apostles didn’t have? Do you have some insight of Scripture that the Early Church Fathers didn’t have? How could anyone in modern times, know better than the apostles and the ECF’s? That is just denial of the Truth.
J
justasking4
Guest
You can have the last word on this. Were to far off topic.
P
Popes_Soldier
Guest
nobody pays attention to my posts
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