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Marian_Devotee
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Pray for CoboltBlue that he (and others like him) may become enlightened with truth. Your thought process on devotion to Mary is about as far off as you can get.
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justasking4
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What part?
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justasking4
Guest
In regards to Revelations 12 being Mary there are a number of problems with it. For one the details don’t fit what we know of her in gospels. The other issue is the title–“Queen of heaven”. That title as far as i know is never used in the NT. It does appear in the OT in Jeremiah 44:18-19 and is rebuked by the Jeremiah.
Where did Jesus teach that we are to honor His mother? If He did, how are we to do so?
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Church_Militant
Guest
What part doesn’t fit with the Gospels?
Okay, fine. Do you hold that same position with regard to the title “King of Kings” for the Lord Jesus Christ? Here’s why I ask…
Do you worship the King of Kings? Yet that title was also given to godless kings in the OT, does that make the title wrong when applied as it should be? No, it does not. The same thing applies in this case.
Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes king of kings to Ezra the priest, the most learned scribe of the law of the God of heaven, greeting.
Ezechiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord God: Behold I will bring against Tyre Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon, the king of kings, from the north, with horses, and chariots, and horsemen, and companies, and much people.
Daniel 2:37 Thou art a king of kings: and the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, and strength, and power, and glory:
2nd Maccabees 13:4 But the King of kings stirred up the mind of Antiochus against the sinner, and upon Lysias suggesting that he was the cause of all the evils, he commanded (as the custom is with them) that he should be apprehended and put to death in the same place.
1st Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall show who is the Blessed and only Mighty, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Revelation 17:14 These shall fight with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and they that are with him are called, and elect, and faithful.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his garment, and on his thigh written: KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Did Our Lord ever violate that 4th commandment?
I’m sure you can figure that out.
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Des
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It’s clear you still can’t quote properly or are intentionally doing it to bother us but whatever…
*Anyways we DO NOT bow down and follow without asking questions as to why things are as they are. Take a good look at the Ask an apologist thread and you will see many Catholics asking questions to help with their understanding of Catholicism. *
Your holy spirit is a spirit of division. Ours keeps us unified.
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You mean like how you believe in a Bible written by men without asking questions, or even being there to witness the event? OKKKKKKK.
*Anyways we DO NOT bow down and follow without asking questions as to why things are as they are. Take a good look at the Ask an apologist thread and you will see many Catholics asking questions to help with their understanding of Catholicism. *
Your holy spirit is a spirit of division. Ours keeps us unified.
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You obviously have no idea what that verse is referring to. One thing is for sure it is not talking about different interpretations of the Bible. It is clearly making the distinctions between families who believe and obey God and those who do not. I suppose the Holy Spirit was asleep when you decided to interpret that one huh.
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*mmhmm you all say that yet differ in teachings. *
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Of course you do. They are called the Apostles. Mortal men that YOU believe God is speaking through. Now take that and apply it to the Pope and the Magistrium of the Church and you will maybe…but I won’t count on it…actually get it for once.
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Take a hard look at your posts before mine. You perhaps should have been warned a long time ago. It’s clear you are not here to learn. This is the Apologetics area don’t forget.
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Always_For_Him
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Oh, but you do. You read and believe teachings/writings of men that do not have Jesus’ authority to teach what they teach. They are from Churches that were separated from Christ’s Church during the Reformation. They teach their own ideology, beliefs, individual interpretation of Scripture. The writings that you have quoted are writings of mortal man, and you believe them as Truth. The apostles WERE the men that Jesus chose to walk with Him, chose to teach, chose to build His Church on, chose to give His Authority to, chose to go forth and teach His Word. They were not just mortal man, not in terms of their importance, not after they were tapped by Jesus to found His Church, to give His Authority to, to give His promise that the gates of hell would never prevail and that He would guide and protect His Church for all ages. Nope, they weren’t just mortal men teaching Scripture anymore. But, the men that you listen to and believe, the men whose writings you read and believe as the truth, they are modern day mortal men.
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Good_Fella
Guest
“The Almighty has done great things for me and holy is his name.”
Luke 1, 49
Pax
Good Fella
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GailMac
Guest
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm…an aside - It never ceases to amaze me how when a Protestant claims for him or herself the guidance of the Holy Spirit in all things religious, he or she feels certain that his or her actions are above reproach and indeed the only true and correct way to go, yet when we Catholics do the same, just watch the fur fly! Some thinking is so convoluted in this regard, they cannot fathom the Holy Spirit acting in any way contrary to what they believe and thus have cut themselves off from same. What a dilemma.
Peace,
Gail
Peace,
Gail
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guanophore
Guest
The parts where Mary appeared to people, and disclosed things to them that they did not know previously.
I am curious why you did not answer the other question in that post?
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guanophore
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You have made it clear here on CAF that you have “a number of problems” with all the Marian doctrines. The next question is, why are you here? Why are you posting on yet another thread about Mary, when you have summarily rejected all of these Teachings? What do you hope to accomplish here? Do you believe you can convert the faithful Catholics here into “bible christians” like yourself?
The presence of a false Queen of Heaven does not negate an authentic Queen of Heaven. Pharoah used to purport himself to be God also. His assertion did nothing to change the identity of the True King of Heaven.
Ever read the ten commandments?
Do you believe that we are called to love others who are members of the Body of Christ?
I think some people have trouble honoring Mary because they have unresolved hostilities with their own birth mothers.
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justasking4
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Edward_Henry
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Hi,
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/dxMwleDsNcY/SA9GafufoyI/AAAAAAAABpU/4eLxqb_TyXI/s1600/y1puNg-7imvIU.jpg
Why the Creator chose for us to go through Mary
I hope it helps,
To Jesus Through Mary
Edward Henry
I think that the following link does a pretty good job in addressing your point:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/dxMwleDsNcY/SA9GafufoyI/AAAAAAAABpU/4eLxqb_TyXI/s1600/y1puNg-7imvIU.jpg
Why the Creator chose for us to go through Mary
I hope it helps,
To Jesus Through Mary
Edward Henry
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GailMac
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Dear Justasking,
Since it is so hard for you to get the Marian stuff, why not pray about it? Could 2000 years of Christians be entirely wrong? What about all the miracles attributed to her intercession through the centuries? Is that all a big conspiracy to deceive folks?
I sometimes wonder how Protestants can completely ignore places like Lourdes and Guadalupe and Fatima, etc. Perhaps you could give an honest answer about them. After all, I am just asking…
Peace,
Gail
Since it is so hard for you to get the Marian stuff, why not pray about it? Could 2000 years of Christians be entirely wrong? What about all the miracles attributed to her intercession through the centuries? Is that all a big conspiracy to deceive folks?
I sometimes wonder how Protestants can completely ignore places like Lourdes and Guadalupe and Fatima, etc. Perhaps you could give an honest answer about them. After all, I am just asking…
Peace,
Gail
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Randy_Carson
Guest
On Honoring Mary as Imitators of Christ
Jesus was a good Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly, and a key component of the Law is known as the Ten Commandments. The first commandment that deals with our relationships with others states, “Honor your Father and Mother.”
As a dutiful Jewish son who obeyed the law perfectly, Jesus fulfilled this commandment by honoring His Mother. The Hebrew word for “honor” actually means “glorify”. So, Jesus bestows glory on his mother, Mary.
At the annunciation, the angel of the Lord called Mary “full of grace”. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God declares that “from now on all generations will call [Mary] blessed”. Consequently, we honor Jesus’ mother in our own generation.
The Catholic Church was not the first to honor and glorify Mary - Jesus was. We simply obey the word of God which calls us to “be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly beloved children.” (Ephesians 5:1)
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Randy_Carson
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And why do you believe that everything must be found in scripture? should we not follow the complete revelation of God which includes Tradition as well as the written word? But that is another problem for another day.
Mary, Queen of Heaven
Here is the principle of the Queen Mother demonstrated within the House of David from the pages of Holy Writ:
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand. (1 Kings 2:19)
Since Solomon had MANY wives, none of them would be queen. In fact, it was his mother that sat on the throne.
Of course, Jesus never married, but the principle of the queen Mother was established long before.
For additional support, you might consider the following:
QUEEN MOTHER: A BIBLICAL THEOLOGY OF MARY’S QUEENSHIP. By Edward Sri (Emmaus Road Publishing, 827 North Fourth St., Steubenville, Ohio 43952, 2005), xvi + 216 pp. PB $14.95.
The purpose of Edward Sri’s study is to prove the queenship of Mary as explicitly revealed in the scriptures. Therefore, the bulk of his research centers around key texts from the Old and New Testaments.
In surveying the Old Testament, the author considers the importance of the queen mother within the Davidic kingdom. It was the king’s mother who ruled as queen, not the king’s wife. This is portrayed in the prophetic tradition, specifically as seen in Isaiah 7:14 and prototypically in Genesis 3:15. These passages, in considering both Testaments, are eventually associated with Israel’s messianic hopes. Thus, in the structure of the Davidic kingdom in Judah and Israel, the mother of the king and queenship and kingship were inseparably linked.
And is George Washington considered the father of our nation? How is it that we honor him 200+ years later?
Of course! Because they are not dead but alive!
Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
Why would we cease to honor our parents who are alove in heaven just because they are no longer here on earth???
How? How do you honor anyone’s memory? By remembering them often, fondly and by continuing to live according to their precepts…among other things.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
J
justasking4
Guest
How would praying about something make it true?
Mormons ask me the same question about Mormonism and i get a burning feeling in my bosom that means its true. Would you accept that as confirmation that Mormonism is indeed true?
If you study church history you will find at times the church was wrong about a number of things. Just because something has been believed for a long time does not mean its true.
This still not would mean its from her. In fact the Scriptures warn about relying on miracles and wonders as a support for the truth. We see in Matthew 24:24 with this warning:“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
i can’t answer for other protestants about this but i suspect it has a lot to do with what the Scriptures do and don’t teach. Take Fatima. How does the know Catholic church know with absolute certainty that it was Mary appearing to the 3 young children and not something or someone else?I sometimes wonder how Protestants can completely ignore places like Lourdes and Guadalupe and Fatima, etc. Perhaps you could give an honest answer about them. After all, I am just asking…
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justasking4
Guest
I can understand in the historical context in which Jesus lived He would honor His mother. What i don’t understand on what grounds catholics honor her in the same sense since she is not your mother. In fact there is no such title for her in the NT of her being even the mother of the church.
Being “blessed” and “honored” are 2 different concepts. Mary was indeed blessed because of her part in the salavation of the world. However this does not mean we are to honor her since the Scriptures never command such a thing for her from us.
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Always_For_Him
Guest
Jesus gave her to all of us at the foot of the cross. She is our heavenly mother. The apostles believed and practiced this. As did the ECF’s and Christians for thousands of years before the Reformation. Even more, so did Luther, Calvin and Zqingli. What happened to the Churches they founded through the Reformation? Why have those and many more teachings changed through these last 500 years to what they are today, which are entirely different?
Not everything Jesus ever said or did in written in Scriptures. Scriptures even say that. Jesus walked and lived with the apostles. They learned and saw things that shaped their beliefs that we will never know because not everything is recorded. There is support for this belief in the Bible, it just has to be interpreted as a whole, not just the part that supports a certain belief.
That is what it has become in today’s understanding of honoring thy mother and thy father in the Protestant Churches. That is not the understanding of what honor meant for the apostles, the ECF’s and all Christians really until that belief was changed to something else within the last few hundred years. Your Church obviously doesn’t teach this and much more that Luther and the Reformers took away from the Catholic Church. That doesn’t make it not true. It just makes it something that you have not been taught and don’t believe in (hopefully YET). The Protestant Church was founded with this belief in tact.
Read the ECF’s, it is all in there. Even read Luther, Calvin and Zwingli’s teachings on this, you will find it in their writings too. I pray that you can be/will be open to this knowledge. It won’t hurt you to know it or believe it. It will strengthen you relationship with Jesus even more. Honoring Mary, gives glory to Jesus.
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Popes_Soldier
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