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CradleCath
Guest
[/QUOTE]AFH,
.Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.Thank you for your concern.
I’m a Missouri Synod Lutheran. I’m also over 75 years old.
I have been a christian for a looong time.
I do not judge anyones salvation, but I will discuss doctrine
Now, Luther;s teachings don’t truly interest me, for I believe he was mentally unstable. The deep shame he felt for his own human sins & failures drove him to long fasts, days & nights of prayer & self-flagellation until he finally formed the idea that Christ, alone was in charge of his salvation. That what he, himself did or didn’t do was of no consequence. In his writings he made the following statements:
."
“Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders.” /QUOTE
While he had some valid points about some of the practices that MEN within the Catholic Church followed (notice, not the Church, itself), his main point of contention was salvation by faith, ALONE & this included faith in Mary.
Later in his life, his hatred for & persecution of the Jews…bears out the fact that this man had some deep emotional problems. However, he still believed that intercessory prayers to Mary were necessary & effective. So, when did that change in your Church? When & why did Luther’s prayer to Our Lady, “Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing” become heresy & how can you follow a Church whose beginning rests on a doctrine that you consider wrong?
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Always_For_Him
Guest
Nice lesson, CradleCath!!!
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GailMac
Guest
Dear Jean8,
Thank you for revealing much more about yourself. I think you should feel proud that you’ve read your Bible for as long as you have. I’m a few decades shy of your 70 plus years on this earth. I try to respect those who are older than me.
I think where you stumble in understanding us Catholics is in your perception of our appreciation of the Bible. We do believe it is the Word of God and is Holy writ, but we also have a living breathing Tradition that is just as Holy. Becoming a Catholic doesn’t mean trading your Bible in for a pair of Rosary beads! On the contrary, we in the Church are exhorted to become familiar with our Bibles and use them every day. Some do, some don’t. And then there is the Liturgy which is saturated with Scriptures!
In your post you said you’ll take your Bible over a mere church anyday, but if you look in your Bible you will find God Himself saying He will build a Church and nothing, not even Hell itself will stop it or Him! We have 2000 years worth of proof of this. It is God’s will that there be A CHURCH! He built it for you, too Jean8.
Has anyone ever invited you come to our Church and see for yourself? If not, please accept my invitation to come and see. We’d love to have you. You’d fit in fine. With your knowlege of Scritpures, you’d ace RCIA!
Peace,
Gail
Thank you for revealing much more about yourself. I think you should feel proud that you’ve read your Bible for as long as you have. I’m a few decades shy of your 70 plus years on this earth. I try to respect those who are older than me.
I think where you stumble in understanding us Catholics is in your perception of our appreciation of the Bible. We do believe it is the Word of God and is Holy writ, but we also have a living breathing Tradition that is just as Holy. Becoming a Catholic doesn’t mean trading your Bible in for a pair of Rosary beads! On the contrary, we in the Church are exhorted to become familiar with our Bibles and use them every day. Some do, some don’t. And then there is the Liturgy which is saturated with Scriptures!
In your post you said you’ll take your Bible over a mere church anyday, but if you look in your Bible you will find God Himself saying He will build a Church and nothing, not even Hell itself will stop it or Him! We have 2000 years worth of proof of this. It is God’s will that there be A CHURCH! He built it for you, too Jean8.
Has anyone ever invited you come to our Church and see for yourself? If not, please accept my invitation to come and see. We’d love to have you. You’d fit in fine. With your knowlege of Scritpures, you’d ace RCIA!
Peace,
Gail
J
justasking4
Guest
What “Revelations” are you referring to that is not in Scripture?guanophore;3855161]Fortunately we are not limited to the part of God’s Revelation of Himself that is found in the Scripture.
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Lampo
Guest
The Canon of Scripture, for one.
J
justasking4
Guest
Is this what they claimed?
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Lampo
Guest
Maybe I missed something…what do you mean, “Is this what they claimed?”?
J
justasking4
Guest
Claimed this was the way the church was the NT canon was done. Did the 4th century leaders claim this?
Do you think its Biblical and necessary to pary to Mary?
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DebChris
Guest
As for as I know, nobody has claimed the necessity of praying to Mary. However, prayers such as the rosary that strengthen our relationship to the Mother of our Lord, enhance our relationship with Jesus Christ.
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viper78912
Guest
08/08
“Do not babble like the pagans…Your Father Knows what you need before you ask.”(Matthew6:8).
“Which one of you would hand his son a stone when he asks for bread or a snake when he asks for fish?
“If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give good things to those who ask Him?”(Matthew.7:9-11).
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jean8
Guest
gail,
Thanks for your reply.
It is easy to get the wrong impression about folks while responding to topics randomly.
Catholics assume the early church was Catholic. It was aposotlic
in it’s teaching, which the apostles were responsible for teaching, just as the Lord asked them to do. He said, “Feed my sheep.”
What does Tradition add to the word of God?
See Rev.22:18-19Yes, taking an RCIA class would be a good idea. I would like to hear how they explain some of your beliefs. i.e. The Assumption,
Mary as Co-Reedmer, The RCC gave us the Bible? It is God who determines the canon, human beings merely discover it.
See 2Tim.3:16
Do you believe that only Catholics are saved? Some other denominations teach. they are the only one’s saved.
Do you know what I think, All Believers who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will be saved. Churches are just buildings where we go to give praise and worship to our Redeemer. Catholic churches are beautiful however. We all ere in our doctrines. Aren’t you happy, we do not have to take a written exam to get into heaven.
Jesus did it all on the cross when He said, “It is finished.” Jn.19:30God bless,
jean
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GailMac
Guest
Dear Jean8,
Indeed Jean 8, “consummatum est.” Jesus’ last words before He died paying the price we all owe for our sins.
Where we diverge is just exactly how one draws down the Blood of His perfect sacrifice upon one’s soul. You probably believe something like you think you are forgiven, therefore you are and can point to several Scripture passages to prove that you are. After all, God Himself said in His Sacred Word that…but After He made the offering of Himself upon the Cross, He came back from the dead and commissioned the Apostles to preach, Baptise, and forgive sins. He breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit and told them they could forgive or bind sins. They have been doing so for 2000 years.
Your beliefs cannot undo anything they have done. It is real whether or not you believe it. It would be like saying to yourself, “Tomorrow I don’t believe the sun will rise,” and expecting it to obey your beliefs! I personally wish you would believe, as I wish everyone in the whole world would!
The normal way to become unbound from one’s sins is in the Sacrament God gave to His Church. When I receive Absolution in the Sacrament, God Himself is forgiving me through the ministry of the Church via the priest who has received it from the Church. God pours His own Blood on my soul to wash away my sins, my Baptismal grace is restored and I am free from my sins. Then strengthened by the Sacrament, I leave the Confessional to go back to the day to day battle with my sins. I often call upon that same Blood to strengthen me in my day. I “place It” before me. I gives me strength.
I know this is off topic, but you seemed interested a bit, and I thought perhaps the grace of God was prompting you try and understand. I hope you act on that grace. May you be blessed in your day. And may you one day know the love of Mary, your own Mother.
Peace,
Gail
Indeed Jean 8, “consummatum est.” Jesus’ last words before He died paying the price we all owe for our sins.
Where we diverge is just exactly how one draws down the Blood of His perfect sacrifice upon one’s soul. You probably believe something like you think you are forgiven, therefore you are and can point to several Scripture passages to prove that you are. After all, God Himself said in His Sacred Word that…but After He made the offering of Himself upon the Cross, He came back from the dead and commissioned the Apostles to preach, Baptise, and forgive sins. He breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit and told them they could forgive or bind sins. They have been doing so for 2000 years.
Your beliefs cannot undo anything they have done. It is real whether or not you believe it. It would be like saying to yourself, “Tomorrow I don’t believe the sun will rise,” and expecting it to obey your beliefs! I personally wish you would believe, as I wish everyone in the whole world would!
The normal way to become unbound from one’s sins is in the Sacrament God gave to His Church. When I receive Absolution in the Sacrament, God Himself is forgiving me through the ministry of the Church via the priest who has received it from the Church. God pours His own Blood on my soul to wash away my sins, my Baptismal grace is restored and I am free from my sins. Then strengthened by the Sacrament, I leave the Confessional to go back to the day to day battle with my sins. I often call upon that same Blood to strengthen me in my day. I “place It” before me. I gives me strength.
I know this is off topic, but you seemed interested a bit, and I thought perhaps the grace of God was prompting you try and understand. I hope you act on that grace. May you be blessed in your day. And may you one day know the love of Mary, your own Mother.
Peace,
Gail
G
guanophore
Guest
All that Jesus began to do and to teach until He was taken up into heaven. He is the image of the invisible God. He is the fullness of God’s revelation of Himself to mankind. He is not confined to the pages of a book, either.
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guanophore
Guest
You are taking this verse out of context, as well as asking the wrong question. Since the entire NT is a product of the Sacred Tradition, the question might better be asked, “what does the Bible add to tradition”? Nothing, of course, but the Bible inerrantly reflects that Tradition from which it was produced.gail,
Thanks for your reply.
It is easy to get the wrong impression about folks while responding to topics randomly.
Catholics assume the early church was Catholic. It was aposotlic
in it’s teaching, which the apostles were responsible for teaching, just as the Lord asked them to do. He said, “Feed my sheep.”
What does Tradition add to the word of God?
Again you are taking scripture out of context. The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is a co-redeemer. I don’t think that an RCIA class would help you with this theological speculation. At least, they SHOULD not!Yes, taking an RCIA class would be a good idea. I would like to hear how they explain some of your beliefs. i.e. The Assumption,
Mary as Co-Reedmer, The RCC gave us the Bible? It is God who determines the canon, human beings merely discover it.
See 2Tim.3:16
There was no separate Roman Rite of the Catholic Church when the canon was formed.
If you believe God can lead man to discover the true canon amidst some 400+ books, then how is it you cannot trust that He can lead in other ways?
You realize this is not in the Bible, right?
And the Orthodox even more so!Churches are just buildings where we go to give praise and worship to our Redeemer. Catholic churches are beautiful however.
We all ere in our doctrines. Aren’t you happy, we do not have to take a written exam to get into heaven.
Jesus did it all on the cross when He said, “It is finished.” Jn.19:30God bless,
jean
People err, but the Church does not. This is because Jesus is Head of the church, and being God, cannot err.
When He said “it is finished” he was speaking of the fourth cup of the Passover, not the “work” itself. His part is fiinished, but ours is not.
J
justasking4
Guest
Do you consider the doctrine-practice of paryer to Mary revelation?
G
Good_Fella
Guest
“They have no wine.”
“Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”
“Do whatever he tells you.”
The devotional practice of imploring Mary’s intercession has existed since apostolic time. The gospel narrative of the wedding feast in Cana reflects the infant Church’s awareness of the powerful intercessory role Jesus has granted his mother. In this story Our Lord is presented as waiting for his mother to solicit him on behalf of the guests, for obviously he already knew in his divinity that the wine had been exhausted by then. Jesus did not perform his first and most important miracle without his mother’s participation. Nor did he perform it merely to provide wine for the wedding guests. Jesus performed this vital miracle through Mary’s intercession to provide us the grace of salvation made possible by the shedding of the precious blood of our Lord for the forgiveness of sins. Our Lord’s blood is the true wine that has been provided for our spiritual wellbeing through the merciful intercession of our Blessed Mother. She does serve to mediate the graces we receive from her divine Son. It’s time you learn that Scripture comes from Tradition. It’s not the other way around. The traditional belief in Mary’s mediatory role in our salvation was carried on by the early Church, as is evident by the teachings of the Church Fathers and the prayers of the faithful.
“We take refuge under thy protection,
holy mother of God.
Do not depise our prayers in time of necessity;
but always free us from all dangers,
O blessed and glorious Virgin.”
Sub Tuum Praesidium [c. 250 A.D.]
“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against his word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve . As the human race was subjected to death through the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
Irenaeus, ‘Against Heresies, V:19, 1’ [180 A.D.]
I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made for everyone. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4
Since the earliest time in the life of the Catholic Church, the faithful have implored the intercession and prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary who exists body and soul in heaven, having been glorified together with her Son.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1 Corinthians 15, 22-23
We are resurrected from the dead by the power of Christ each in our own turn. Mary is the first of those who belong to Christ to have been taken body and soul into heaven, for she is the mother of our Lord. She belongs to Jesus in a unique and highly privileged way. Since she is alive in heaven, we pray to her while she prays for us in the eternal presence of God. This truth is revealed to us through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
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GailMac
Guest
What a beautiful post Good Fella! Thank you.
Peace,
Gail
Peace,
Gail
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Let’s see:
First, we have the angel who ‘prays’ to Mary:
Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.
And then Elizabeth.
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb (Jesus). And who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Prayer, of course, is ‘talking’ to someone --asking, speaking. The angel’s speech to Mary is a prayer. Elizabeth’s speech to Mary is a prayer.
Paul’s words to those at Corinth, Rome, Thessaly, etc. are all prayers for them. He says so.
So if St. Paul can ‘pray’ --not just for the living, but for ‘those who have fallen asleep’. . .for and with ‘others’ than God. . .since the end result of the prayer is always ‘to’ God ultimately. . .
Just as when we pray for others it is not as though ‘we’ grant the prayer, but we always ask their help in ‘asking GOD to grant the prayer’. . .
And if Revelation tells us that the ‘prayers rise up and are heard in heaven’ --and we know that those who have died in the faith with Christ are in heaven (for He tells us so). . .then those ‘in heaven’ (though God’s power) can ‘hear’ whatsoever God wants them to hear. That they do hear is shown in Revelation, and also in the gospel. Lazarus hears Jesus’ voice though he is 4 days dead.
And lest you quibble that 'that was GOD, of COURSE Lazarus heard" may I remind you that Peter likewise raised the dead. They ‘heard’ HIM–a man, not God --though dead.
Why on earth would somebody dead and in heaven with God --living then FULLY in the Body of Christ–NOT be able to not only hear, but to see? How do you think these people are ‘living’ in heaven? That they only ‘see or hear’ GOD and that somehow God doesn’t have any part in those of us on earth? How can somebody be aware of the fullness and perfection of GOD --and somehow be completely ‘unknowing’ of what is going on here on earth? It sounds wildly illogical (and is extremely unscriptural, to boot) to ‘assume’ that those who have died either know ‘nothing at all’ (which is not what is said of those who die in Christ) or are magically ‘in soul sleep’ (likewise never said in Scripture). . .particularly when we have so many scriptural passages which show us that the dead (like Dives, for example, not to mention Abraham. . .and Moses and Elijah) are perfectly aware of themselves, of God, AND of people on earth as well. . .
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Good_Fella
Guest
Gail, it’s the least I can do for our Blessed Mother who has been offended too often by cold and indifferent hearts. I’m flying to Akita, Japan on Monday on a 6 day pilgrimage at the convent of the Handmaids of the Holy Eucharist in Yuzawadai in honour of Our Lady of Akita. The culminating point will be on the 15th, the Feast of the Assumption of Mary. There’s going to be a big celebration there starting at 7pm with Mass. It was on the 15th of August 1549 St. Francis Xavier set foot on Japan as a missionary. I’m going to offer up my pilgrimage in reparation for all the offences committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary. And I’m going to pray especially hard for JA4, imploring Our Lady’s pardon.
Of course, I will keep everybody’s private intentions in mind, and I will ask Our Blessed Mother to bless and watch over our Forum. Let peace reign! God bless you.Pax
Good Fella
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