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mlchance
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Lampo
Guest
Mach1Man…We believe the Body of Christ is the Church. The Church has three tiers, if you will. (1) The Church Militant - people alive on Earth; (2) The Church Suffering - those in Purgatory; (3) the Church Triumphant - those in Heaven. We can pray for one another while here on Earth and that is a good thing. Since those in Heaven are more alive than we are here, it makes sense that they can hear our prayers and in fact do pray for us. This has been a practice of the Church from it’s infancy. I think it would behoove you too to understand the Church’s teaching on the Communion of Saints. Always keep in mind that when we pray to the Saints in Heaven, that prayer first goes through the Head of the Church - Jesus. Let me explain with some sort of analogy.
Suppose you take a needle with your left hand and jab your right hand with it. That pain impulse first goes to your brain then back to your right hand telling you that that is painful. Same goes when praying to the Saints in Heaven. The Church consists of us here on Earth and those in Heaven. The Head of the Church is Jesus. When we pray to St. Augustine, for example, the prayer has this route: me>Jesus>St. Augustine>Jesus. BTW, when Catholics say we pray “to” the Saints, we are really asking them to intercede for us and pray to Jesus for us. Just like when we ask a friend to pray for a sick family member here on Earth. I sincerely hope that helps you.
As for Scriptural reference for praying to the Saints:
Mark 12:27 - In Christ we are alive, not dead even after our natural death. Spiritually we live.
John 2:3-5 - Jesus answers Mary’s intercession. We too should go to Mary to ask her for her prayers.
Romans 8:35-39 - Death does not separate the communion of the body of Christ because we are united in Christ.
Ephesians 3:14,15 - We are all one family united together, whether we are on heaven or on earth.
Colossians 1:18,24 - We are the body, Jesus is the head of the church.
1 Corinthians 11:1-3 - We should imitate Paul as he imitates Christ.
1 Peter 2:5 - We should offer spiritual sacrifices to God as one holy priesthood.
1 Timothy 2:1-3 - Paul urges intercessions and prayer be made for all people. It is okay to pray for each other and offer mediation in and to Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5 - While there is one mediator of the new covenant there are many intercessors in that covenant.
1 John 3:2 - The saints in heaven are more aware of God and more alive than we are now.
Hebrews 12:1 - We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.
Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11 - The prayers of the saints are offered and answered at the throne of God.
That is not an exhaustive list. It would help you to understand too that we Catholics do not go by just the Bible alone. Since you are a Bible alone-guy, you should know that nowhere in the Bible does it say we should go by the Bible alone. Catholics go by the **entire **Word of God; written **and **spoken. The deposit of faith for Catholics is Scripture, Tradition and the Magesterium of the Church.
Suppose you take a needle with your left hand and jab your right hand with it. That pain impulse first goes to your brain then back to your right hand telling you that that is painful. Same goes when praying to the Saints in Heaven. The Church consists of us here on Earth and those in Heaven. The Head of the Church is Jesus. When we pray to St. Augustine, for example, the prayer has this route: me>Jesus>St. Augustine>Jesus. BTW, when Catholics say we pray “to” the Saints, we are really asking them to intercede for us and pray to Jesus for us. Just like when we ask a friend to pray for a sick family member here on Earth. I sincerely hope that helps you.
As for Scriptural reference for praying to the Saints:
Mark 12:27 - In Christ we are alive, not dead even after our natural death. Spiritually we live.
John 2:3-5 - Jesus answers Mary’s intercession. We too should go to Mary to ask her for her prayers.
Romans 8:35-39 - Death does not separate the communion of the body of Christ because we are united in Christ.
Ephesians 3:14,15 - We are all one family united together, whether we are on heaven or on earth.
Colossians 1:18,24 - We are the body, Jesus is the head of the church.
1 Corinthians 11:1-3 - We should imitate Paul as he imitates Christ.
1 Peter 2:5 - We should offer spiritual sacrifices to God as one holy priesthood.
1 Timothy 2:1-3 - Paul urges intercessions and prayer be made for all people. It is okay to pray for each other and offer mediation in and to Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5 - While there is one mediator of the new covenant there are many intercessors in that covenant.
1 John 3:2 - The saints in heaven are more aware of God and more alive than we are now.
Hebrews 12:1 - We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.
Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11 - The prayers of the saints are offered and answered at the throne of God.
That is not an exhaustive list. It would help you to understand too that we Catholics do not go by just the Bible alone. Since you are a Bible alone-guy, you should know that nowhere in the Bible does it say we should go by the Bible alone. Catholics go by the **entire **Word of God; written **and **spoken. The deposit of faith for Catholics is Scripture, Tradition and the Magesterium of the Church.
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peary
Guest
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Good_Fella
Guest
Is that so? :coffeeread:
Scripture does reveal that Peter performed miracles in the name of our Lord, but Scripture does not reveal that Mary denied her Son three times. Indeed, we read in John’s gospel that the mother of our Lord stood at the foot of the Cross with Jesus’ beloved disciple while Peter and the other Apostles were in hiding in fear for their lives. And it is true that Scripture does not record Mary having performed any miracles, since she was not appointed an apostle and commissioned by her Son to preach the Gospel; yet she encouraged her Son to perform his first miracle and begin his ministry under the shadow of the Cross, something no apostle could ever have done. Peter tried to discourage our Lord from going to Jerusalem during Passover. Jesus rebuked him, whereas he never rebuked his mother at the wedding feast in Cana. Rather he received her supplication on the guest’s behalf and ours.
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
[John 2, 3]
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, “Drink from it all of you, for this is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”
[Matthew 26, 27-28]
Mary Magdalene was among the women who went to the tomb at dawn that morning Jesus rose from the dead. And these same women stood near the foot of the Cross with Mary, the mother of Jesus, and John. Jesus must have appeared to these women that first Easter morning because of their faith in him and for not having forsaken him as the other eleven apostles did. Since Mary had also stood near the foot of the Cross with the other women, notwithstanding her Divine maternity, we can safely infer that Jesus appeared to her as well, in spite of the fact this appearance is not recorded. Jesus must have appeared to his mother first and privately. Still the evangelists may have known of this appearance but decided not to record it for some reason. Why even record something that no true Christian would take for granted? The appearance of Jesus to his female disciples may have been recorded because of their ecclesial participation in the community: “Go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me” (Mt 28:10). Anyway, the women went and told the apostles what they had witnessed. And so their experience at the tomb could be recorded. It was more a public event than a solemnly private one between mother and son.
The angel Gabriel and Elizabeth speak of Mary in a highly exceptional way which cannot be said of Mary Magdalene and the other women who faithfully followed Jesus to his death on the Cross.
“Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
[Luke 1, 28]
“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord (God the Son) should come to me? Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord (God the Father) would be fulfilled.”
[Luke 1, 42-43, 45]
Scripture explicitly reveals by word that Mary was more blessed and faithful than the other women; so if the risen Jesus had appeared to his female followers because of their faith, he must have first appeared to his mother because of her greater faith. We know that she consistently heard the word of God and kept it (Luke 11, 28). Mary was blessed in rather a unique and highly privileged way. However, the most important thing to consider is the infinite love Jesus had for his mother and the honour he showed her in keeping with the Torah. Do we dare question the perfection of our Lord’s divine love and his obedience to his Father’s will as revealed through Mosaic Law, by presuming that Jesus could be so cold and indifferent towards his sorrowful mother as to fail in appearing to her and consoling her?
Simeon said to Mary, his mother: “Behold, this child is destined for the rise and fall of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted and YOU YOURSELF A SWORD WILL PIERCE so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
[Luke 2, 34-35]
Simeon’s prophecy was fulfilled at the moment Mary sorrowfully witnessed the death of her beloved Son as she stood at the foot of the Cross. What more should have been written about Mary in the scriptures after the crucifixion and death of Jesus? At this point Mary had become the Mother of all Christians and would become the living Mother (Mediatrix and Advocatrix) of the Church.
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
[Revelation 12, 1]
Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, you and the Ark of your might.
[Psalm 132, 8]
“Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger, O you alone pure and alone blessed.”
Sub Tuum Praesidium (c. A.D. 250)
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
J
jean8
Guest
A closed mind? That’s one way tp phrase what you think. The correct way is , “You don’t believe the Catholic doctrine.” that means I have done some research on the subject. it doesn’t mean I’m cloesd minded .
This is a debate board. The correct thing for you to do is prove me wrong, with the word of God.
Mt.6:6 "But when you pray, go into your room. close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is dine in secret will reward you.7. and when you pray, do not keep babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of thier many words The Father knows what you need before you ask Him. The passage goes on to tell us to pray the Lords prayer.
God bless,
jean8
J
jean8
Guest
good fella,Is that so? :coffeeread:
Scripture does reveal that Peter performed miracles in the name of our Lord, but Scripture does not reveal that Mary denied her Son three times. Indeed, we read in John’s gospel that the mother of our Lord stood at the foot of the Cross with Jesus’ beloved disciple while Peter and the other Apostles were in hiding in fear for their lives. And it is true that Scripture does not record Mary having performed any miracles, since she was not appointed an apostle and commissioned by her Son to preach the Gospel; yet she encouraged her Son to perform his first miracle and begin his ministry under the shadow of the Cross, something no apostle could ever have done. Peter tried to discourage our Lord from going to Jerusalem during Passover. Jesus rebuked him, whereas he never rebuked his mother at the wedding feast in Cana. Rather he received her supplication on the guest’s behalf and ours.
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
[John 2, 3]
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, “Drink from it all of you, for this is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”
[Matthew 26, 27-28]
Mary Magdalene was among the women who went to the tomb at dawn that morning Jesus rose from the dead. And these same women stood near the foot of the Cross with Mary, the mother of Jesus, and John. Jesus must have appeared to these women that first Easter morning because of their faith in him and for not having forsaken him as the other eleven apostles did. Since Mary had also stood near the foot of the Cross with the other women, notwithstanding her Divine maternity, we can safely infer that Jesus appeared to her as well, in spite of the fact this appearance is not recorded. Jesus must have appeared to his mother first and privately. Still the evangelists may have known of this appearance but decided not to record it for some reason. Why even record something that no true Christian would take for granted? The appearance of Jesus to his female disciples may have been recorded because of their ecclesial participation in the community: “Go and tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me” (Mt 28:10). Anyway, the women went and told the apostles what they had witnessed. And so their experience at the tomb could be recorded. It was more a public event than a solemnly private one between mother and son.
The angel Gabriel and Elizabeth speak of Mary in a highly exceptional way which cannot be said of Mary Magdalene and the other women who faithfully followed Jesus to his death on the Cross.
“Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
[Luke 1, 28]
“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord (God the Son) should come to me? Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord (God the Father) would be fulfilled.”
[Luke 1, 42-43, 45]
Scripture explicitly reveals by word that Mary was more blessed and faithful than the other women; so if the risen Jesus had appeared to his female followers because of their faith, he must have first appeared to his mother because of her greater faith. We know that she consistently heard the word of God and kept it (Luke 11, 28). Mary was blessed in rather a unique and highly privileged way. However, the most important thing to consider is the infinite love Jesus had for his mother and the honour he showed her in keeping with the Torah. Do we dare question the perfection of our Lord’s divine love and his obedience to his Father’s will as revealed through Mosaic Law, by presuming that Jesus could be so cold and indifferent towards his sorrowful mother as to fail in appearing to her and consoling her?
Simeon said to Mary, his mother: “Behold, this child is destined for the rise and fall of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted and YOU YOURSELF A SWORD WILL PIERCE so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
[Luke 2, 34-35]
Simeon’s prophecy was fulfilled at the moment Mary sorrowfully witnessed the death of her beloved Son as she stood at the foot of the Cross. What more should have been written about Mary in the scriptures after the crucifixion and death of Jesus? At this point Mary had become the Mother of all Christians and would become the living Mother (Mediatrix and Advocatrix) of the Church.
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
[Revelation 12, 1]
Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, you and the Ark of your might.
[Psalm 132, 8]
“Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger, O you alone pure and alone blessed.”
Sub Tuum Praesidium (c. A.D. 250)
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
I agree with most of what you have written.
You left out the scriptures however. The resurrection is found in Jn.20:10 Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene.
Lu.24 10 "It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles Mk.16:1 relates the same.
Can you find a passage that tells you Mary, Jesus’ mother was there?
God bless,
jean8
P
peary
Guest
**As I said before, neither I nor anyone else here have to prove anything to you. You are the one who is challenging certain aspects of our Faith; therefore, you are the one who needs to ‘prove’ what our Faith holds is wrong. For me, there is nothing ‘wrong’ with my Faith. My Faith is in Christ and His Church. You can do whatever so-called ‘research’ you want. The sad fact is, your research is always on the side of attempting to refute the Faith, not to find answers as to why the Church has always upheld the tenets of Faith for two-thousand years.A closed mind? That’s one way tp phrase what you think. The correct way is , “You don’t believe the Catholic doctrine.” that means I have done some research on the subject. it doesn’t mean I’m cloesd minded .
This is a debate board. The correct thing for you to do is prove me wrong, with the word of God.
Mt.6:6 "But when you pray, go into your room. close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is dine in secret will reward you.7. and when you pray, do not keep babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of thier many words The Father knows what you need before you ask Him. The passage goes on to tell us to pray the Lords prayer.
God bless,
jean8
So, when you yourself go to pray, go to your own room…and shut the door.
**
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean to tell me. Matthew’s account is relatively similar. God bless you, too.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
C
Church_Militant
Guest
The fact that you reject a Biblical doctrine of the Communion of Saints (MP3 Bible Study) is the actual issue then.A closed mind? That’s one way tp phrase what you think. The correct way is , “You don’t believe the Catholic doctrine.” that means I have done some research on the subject. it doesn’t mean I’m cloesd minded .
This is a debate board. The correct thing for you to do is prove me wrong, with the word of God.
Mt.6:6 "But when you pray, go into your room. close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is dine in secret will reward you.7. and when you pray, do not keep babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of thier many words The Father knows what you need before you ask Him. The passage goes on to tell us to pray the Lords prayer.
God bless,
jean8
Hopefully these two links will help you with this.
The Intercession & Communion of Saints
B
brierpatch1974
Guest
After reading all these forums and thinking about things, here is my point of view. Maybe its wrong and to simple but really this is something that should not be a complicated matter to begin with.
Just remember I am seeking God and religion and claim no religion for myself. But here’s my opinion. Catholics pray through marry and saints for intervention. Why do protestants think this is wrong? There is no difference in this than you praying for a neighbor or having a neighbor pray for you.
If God didn’t want us praying for each other he would have told us not to. But instead he even ask us to pray for our enemies. If God didn’t want us praying for others then the prayers of the apostles would have fallen on def ears and would not have been heard. More than likely they would have never been offered if it was the wrong thing to do.
Just remember I am seeking God and religion and claim no religion for myself. But here’s my opinion. Catholics pray through marry and saints for intervention. Why do protestants think this is wrong? There is no difference in this than you praying for a neighbor or having a neighbor pray for you.
If God didn’t want us praying for each other he would have told us not to. But instead he even ask us to pray for our enemies. If God didn’t want us praying for others then the prayers of the apostles would have fallen on def ears and would not have been heard. More than likely they would have never been offered if it was the wrong thing to do.
P
peary
Guest
For some peculiar and bizarre reason, some Protestant denominations believe that the saints in Heaven are cut off from the body of Christ (the Church, us) here on earth once they die. I do not understand where such a teaching comes from, but it is a very bad error in theology and one’s Faith to attempt to do this. It doesn’t make sense, and Paul would have been flabberghasted if any early Christian would have thought so. In fact, if one looks in the catacombs, there are so many written requests in stone by Christians to their departed to pray for them that it immediately disproves the protestant notion that those in heaven are cut off from the rest of us, and reveals that intercession of the saints in heaven was a major belief of early Christians.
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Marangelica
Guest
I can truly with a lack of desire to pray to saints or Mary. And frankly, I’m not sure we are under any obligation too. If you want to only pray to Jesus- only pray to God… why not?
I remember growing up and seeing the tremendous devotion my mother had to Mary. I envied her because I knew that she had in her a best friend, a confidant, a prayer warrior. I wish I felt that same devotion but never did. I prayed to Jesus- and to be quite honest, I think that’s ok. I understand it is completely biblical and logical to pray to the Saints and Mary- but I don’t believe that it’s a must. Trying to make yourself feel something you don’t isn’t going to make you feel it.
It wasn’t until I had my daughters that I felt a sudden need for support from my heavenly mother. I hate to say that it wasn’t until then that I actually truly started praying to her. It brought me such comfort to know that she was a mother and understood me- I felt… like I had found a best friend and confidant that had always been there but I had never really called.
My 7 yr old daughter loves reading about the Saints and it is because of her devotion that I have also started reading and looking to them as well. In fact I started reading more and more about Mother Theresa and have started seeing her so human… yet so saintly. It has been such a help to me on a personal level… I can’t describe how I now feel connected to my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I recently heard Scott Hahn describe the praying the Rosary as an act of imitation of Christ- wow! As I pray the Rosary- I am doing the work of her son… it makes sense- Jesus Christ fullfilled all of the Commandments perfectly- hence, honor your father and your mother- he would have completed perfectly- as we honor Mary we are truly doing his work- all of a sudden it felt sooo… right. I now pray the Rosary every day and find that it helps me remain soooo Christ centered…
I guess my point is that I fully believe that if we don’t want to pray to Mary or the Saints - we don’t have too. I think my life has gotten much easier since I realized they were my friends and family - and that they could help me in my walk - but I don’t think I sinned by not doing it previously. I just made my walk harder… I took a long time, but like a loving and perfect mother she waited for me… and she has sooo blessed me in a thousand ways and brought me sooo much closer to her son. Closer than I ever was- when it was just me and Jesus… I’m also much more in peace…
She brought me to him. They pray for me and help me in my walk and give me someone to look up to- fellow humans that have suffered tremendously for my Lord and Savior… they are my friends. I wish I had realized that sooner-
I remember growing up and seeing the tremendous devotion my mother had to Mary. I envied her because I knew that she had in her a best friend, a confidant, a prayer warrior. I wish I felt that same devotion but never did. I prayed to Jesus- and to be quite honest, I think that’s ok. I understand it is completely biblical and logical to pray to the Saints and Mary- but I don’t believe that it’s a must. Trying to make yourself feel something you don’t isn’t going to make you feel it.
It wasn’t until I had my daughters that I felt a sudden need for support from my heavenly mother. I hate to say that it wasn’t until then that I actually truly started praying to her. It brought me such comfort to know that she was a mother and understood me- I felt… like I had found a best friend and confidant that had always been there but I had never really called.
My 7 yr old daughter loves reading about the Saints and it is because of her devotion that I have also started reading and looking to them as well. In fact I started reading more and more about Mother Theresa and have started seeing her so human… yet so saintly. It has been such a help to me on a personal level… I can’t describe how I now feel connected to my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I recently heard Scott Hahn describe the praying the Rosary as an act of imitation of Christ- wow! As I pray the Rosary- I am doing the work of her son… it makes sense- Jesus Christ fullfilled all of the Commandments perfectly- hence, honor your father and your mother- he would have completed perfectly- as we honor Mary we are truly doing his work- all of a sudden it felt sooo… right. I now pray the Rosary every day and find that it helps me remain soooo Christ centered…
I guess my point is that I fully believe that if we don’t want to pray to Mary or the Saints - we don’t have too. I think my life has gotten much easier since I realized they were my friends and family - and that they could help me in my walk - but I don’t think I sinned by not doing it previously. I just made my walk harder… I took a long time, but like a loving and perfect mother she waited for me… and she has sooo blessed me in a thousand ways and brought me sooo much closer to her son. Closer than I ever was- when it was just me and Jesus… I’m also much more in peace…
She brought me to him. They pray for me and help me in my walk and give me someone to look up to- fellow humans that have suffered tremendously for my Lord and Savior… they are my friends. I wish I had realized that sooner-
G
guanophore
Guest
I am sure that the departed can hear whatever God wants them to hear. However, I agree that Mary is not omnipresent.good fella,
Mary certainly is a special person. She was chosen to give birth to the Son of God.
However, She is not omnipresent. she cannot hear the prayers that are directed to her. The scriptures teach we are to pray to God the Father and ask in the name of Jesus Christ.
Praying to departed saints, you have the same problem. They can’t hear you.
I’ll be happy to pray for you.
jean8
G
guanophore
Guest
You think that the cloud of witnesses described in Heb. 11 can “witness” when they don’t know what is going on? Pretty poor witness, I would say!
Do you think that Elijah and Moses were having a conversation with Jesus about his upcoming crucifixion when they did not know what was going on? That doesn’ t make any sense.
M
marymol
Guest
Holy Spirit has revealed to O.T wirters that the earth is as a grain of sand …and science now can verify that in the vast universe , size wise it is …
If The Word who created all that with His power chose then to mysteriously hold Himself in a womb, do we need to limit the power He has given her , esp. as the enemy of the one who brought the yearning of the fallen nature to be ruled by evil !
O Mary concieved without sin, pray for us !
If The Word who created all that with His power chose then to mysteriously hold Himself in a womb, do we need to limit the power He has given her , esp. as the enemy of the one who brought the yearning of the fallen nature to be ruled by evil !
O Mary concieved without sin, pray for us !
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Indeed, the first historic evidence of veneration of Mary in the life of the Church is found in the Roman catacombs. I believe it is in the catacomb of St. Agnes there exists a frescoe of Mary: the ‘orans’, “the woman in prayer”. During the great persecutions against the early Church, Christians offered up their petitions and supplications to the Mother of God and the Mother of the Church, that she intercede on their behalf and thereby deliver them from danger. The ‘orans’ clearly indicates that Christians had invoked Mary for her intercession and help by the third century. One significant frescoe found in the catacomb of St. Agnes depicts Mary situated between Peter and Paul with her hands outstretched to them both. The two apostles together have symbolized the Church since earliest times. So this frescoe depicts Mary as Mother of the Church. Another frescoe depicts Mary holding the infant Jesus in her arms as he is adored by the Magi (Mary, Mother of God). Obviously the early Christians believed that Mary was alive in heaven together with her Divine Son, or else they wouldn’t have offered up their prayers to God through her mediation. Indifference towards the mother of our Lord and the rejection of the traditional belief that God has granted her intercessory power is a modern day reformed, fundamentalist Protestant phenomenon which has no connection with the historic and apostolic Christian faith whatsoever.
It would appear that this particular devotion to Mary had already existed by the time Luke wrote his gospel.
And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out and said, “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me.?”
{Luke 1, 42}
Simeon’s prophecy to Mary, “and your own soul a sword will pierce” (Luke 2, 25) affirms her privileged participation in God’s plan of salvation.
Keeping with Sacred Tradition, the Church Fathers encouraged the faithful to turn to Mary for her intercession and assistance before God.
“With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the world.”
St. Ephraem (A.D. 373)
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
G
Gamera
Guest
Mary was not a sinner. Mary was “full of grace,” Luke 1:28. A person “full of grace” has no room for sin. Mary received her salvation at the moment of her conception.
G
guanophore
Guest
This is a ridiculous assertion. You cited a verse from Rev. about not adding to the words of the book. The verse applies to the Revelation, and you took it out of context and applied it to all of scripture. It was pointed out to you that the book from which it comes was not part of the NT at the time, so it is not appropriate to apply it in such a way. It has nothing to do with “agreement” of the books.
Furthermore, all the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics, so there is nothing there that Catholics disagree with at all. The books (400+) that were floating around when the Catholic Church put the NT together that did not agree with Catholic teaching were not included in the NT.
Actually, the bible does not “teach” at all. People teach. That is why Jesus commissioned the Apostles to teach. The Apostles taught us to pray for one another, and made no distinction between members of the Body that are still here on earth, and those who have passed on from this life.
It seems that you have a lot to learn about your family history, jean8.
M
Mikel12
Guest
I dont think you have come here with a spirit of dialogue. members are telling you that the bible says: “Prayers of a righteous person are effective with God”, they are also telling you that scripture calls Mary righteous (“full of grace”), grace which saves you and which doesn’t allow sin to have dominion over you, and you still insist that where does the bible talk about Mary’s prayers being effective. Guess what? Im Ugandan, and Ugandans are East Africans. But you are asking me to prve that Mikel is an East african. Good luck in your search for God’s Church but I wont be suprised if you one day come back here to give your conversion story.
- Status