How and why to pray through Mary?

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GailMac said:
Good post Franjos!

We honor our Father in Heaven AND the Mother He gave us - Mary! Makes plenty of sense to me.

Imagine how surprised some converts will be when they get to Heaven with a question in their hearts about how they managed to convert, and they’ll see Mary smiling and know it was through her intercession that they became true children of God!

Peace,

Gail
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gail,
I have no doubt Mary will be smiling in heaven. She herself was a sinner, As she prayed, “And Mary said: My soul magnifies the Lord; And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:46,47).

Heb.12? We have different views as to what this passage is teaching. We are running a race. This scripture teaches we are to stay in the race and not give up.The saints in heaven are praying for us, not the other way around. 🙂

God bless,
jean8
 
afh,
thank you for your response.
I have no doubts about praying to Mary or the saints. as I said, they do not possess the atttibutes of God./ why do you think they do. The Bible does not address this.
What Luther did does not impress me. He never intended to leave the Catholic church, When he did some of his beliefs followed him. We have come a long way since then. 🙂
See Rev.22:18-20

God bless,
jean8

Come a long way since then? Who inspired the beliefs included in this “long way” that you talk about?

Are you saying that the bible has changed since Luther? (Other than the books deleted.)

Are you saying that the protestant church has splintered into 10’s of thousands of different interpretations and anyone can believe whatever they feel?

What interpretation of the bible do you follow? Your own? If not your own, which protestant church do you allow to interpret for you?

I am really interested on what you mean by come a long way since then???
 
Dear Jean8,

I’m no expert so I’m going to explain this as simply as I can:

In your post you state: “She herself was a sinner” meaning Mary.

This just plain isn’t so! Here’s a way to see it that I think is pretty simple, the way I would explain to a child…Adam and Eve were created by God without any sin. They fell as we all know. What this shows is that God can create people without any sin. This is also the case with Mary, she was born free of sin, and God preserved her from falling as Adam and Eve fell. He had a special plan and it included Mary, so He preserved her during her lifetime. God is God and after all, He can do whatever He wants with anyone. He made Adam and Even without sin and they did dwell in Eden for some time and even spoke to God in the evenings. This shows that man is capable of living without sin. Mary’s being preserved from taking that human fall into sin is why the angel called her full of grace at his greeting.

Does this make any sense?

Peace,

Gail

P.S. I know it is hard to accept if everyone around you that you worship with thinks otherwise, but if you try to see it another way, I think that is where the light might get it.
 
cecilia97 said:
Woah…the disciples didn’t have these attributes of God either: curing the sick, raising the dead, cleansing lepers. But Jesus sent them out to do just those things, and they did! They did those things through the power of God. So why would God suddenly revoke what he’s given us just because our earthly bodies die?

Makes no sense. He is the God of the living.

The Church does not teach that Mary is omnipresent or hears our prayers through her own power. She hears our prayers because God allows her to hear them.
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cecilia,
Thanks for your reply. 🙂
What your church teaches and what the Bible teaches are very different. The Bible teaches we are to pray to God the Father and ask in in name of Jesus. 🙂 Jesus gave the example found in Mt.6:9
Yes, I am aware of the miracles the apostles did. Did Mary perform any of these miracles? No. Actually the Bible doesn’t say much about Mary after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Jn.20
Jesus appeared to Mary Magalene

God bless,
jean8
 
GailMac said:
Dear Jean8,

I’m no expert so I’m going to explain this as simply as I can:

In your post you state: “She herself was a sinner” meaning Mary.

This just plain isn’t so! Here’s a way to see it that I think is pretty simple, the way I would explain to a child…Adam and Eve were created by God without any sin. They fell as we all know. What this shows is that God can create people without any sin. This is also the case with Mary, she was born free of sin, and God preserved her from falling as Adam and Eve fell. He had a special plan and it included Mary, so He preserved her during her lifetime. God is God and after all, He can do whatever He wants with anyone. He made Adam and Even without sin and they did dwell in Eden for some time and even spoke to God in the evenings. This shows that man is capable of living without sin. Mary’s being preserved from taking that human fall into sin is why the angel called her full of grace at his greeting.

Does this make any sense?

Peace,

Gail

P.S. I know it is hard to accept if everyone around you that you worship with thinks otherwise, but if you try to see it another way, I think that is where the light might get it.
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gail,
It’s clear we have different views from what the RCC teaches. I believe what the word of God teaches. The Bible. This is the only guide we can go by, in my opinion. See Rev…22:18-20
We do have the problem of interpretation of scripture but adding to the word is problematic.
I respect your point of view and I enjoy the dialog.

God bless,
jean8
 
jean8 said:
See Rev…22:18-20
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Seen it. When that verse was written, the New Testament as you and I know it did not exist as an authoritative collection of documents. In Revelation 22:18-20, John is either referring to the Old Testament, to Revelation itself, or to both. He couldn’t have been referring to the New Testament, because the New Testament did not exist at that time.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Dear Jean8

Perhaps you missed the post about Lourdes. In any case, in your post you state: “Did Mary perform any of these miracles? No.” This isn’t so. Please read the following:

"Notre-Dame de Lourdes, in the Department of Hautes Pyrenées, France, is far-famed for the pilgrimage of which it is a centre and for the extraordinary events that have occurred and still occur there…The pilgrimage of Lourdes is founded on the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin to a poor, fourteen-year-old girl, Bernadette Soubiroux. The first apparition occurred 11 February, 1858. There were eighteen in all; the last took place 16 July, of the same year…But more remarkable still than the crowd of pilgrims is the series of wonderful occurrences which take place under the protection of the celebrated sanctuary. Passing over spiritual cures, which more often than not escape human observance, we shall confine ourselves to bodily diseases. The writer of this article has recorded every recovery, whether partial or complete, and in the first half-century of the shrine’s existence he has counted 3962…As to the nature of the diseases which are cured, nervous disorders so frequently mentioned, do not furnish even the fourteenth part of the whole; 278 have been counted, out of a total of 3962. The present writer has published the number of cases of each disease or infirmity, among them tuberculosis, tumours, sores, cancers, deafness, blindness, etc. The “Annales des Sciences Physiques”, a sceptical review whose chief editor is Doctor Ch. Richet, Professor at the Medical Faculty of Paris, said in the course of a long article, apropos of this faithful study: “On reading it, unprejudiced minds cannot but be convinced that the facts stated are authentic.”…newadvent.org/cathen/09389b.htm

Now are all these people lying? Or is it possible that Mary, the Mother of God has interceded on their behalf in a well known place called Lourdes? To believe otherwise would cast a vast shadow upon over 3000 people as fakes not to mention the thousands who witnessed these cures and healings, these miracles!

The age of miracles didn’t end with the death of the last Apostle. If one were to **look with an open mind **into the thousands upon thousands of miracles obtained through the years since the foundation of the Church to the present day, one would simply have to admit that yes, indeed the saints are active among God’s people and most honorable among them is His Mother Mary.

I would say to you Jean8, start investigating on your own the cult of the saints and their miracles among us. Ask and **keep an open mind. **There is a young man who was born deaf and experienced a healing miracle at the intercession of St. Padre Pio. He couldn’t hear you say that your Bible is the sole authority on faith when he was born, but he sure can know! If he did, I think he would laugh and pray for your soul.

So, investigate…keep an open mind…and pray. I dare you.:rolleyes:

Peace,

Gail
 
jean8 said:
gail,
I have no doubt Mary will be smiling in heaven. She herself was a sinner, As she prayed, “And Mary said: My soul magnifies the Lord; And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:46,47).

God bless,
jean8
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Mary “is” smiling in heaven, but not because she was a sinner. 😉

Luke 1, 47 reads: “My spirit rejoices in God my saviour.”

The evangelist has Mary speak in the indicative mood: “I am saved,” in contrast with the imperative mood: “You save me,” which we have in David’s Psalm 51: “From my sins turn away your face and blot out all my guilt.” David was sinful, he had just committed adultery of which he faithfully repented. Unlike the psalmist, Mary declares with absolute certainty that she is saved. Only a sinless person could be absolutely certain of her salvation. Luke employs the indicative mood to acknowledge the traditional belief of his church (1, 1-4) that the mother of our Lord was sinless and her salvation assured because of her Divine maternity: “The Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name” (1, 49). She was blessed rather because she heard the word of God and kept it (11, 28) throughout her entire life. A soul which “magnifies the Lord” (1,46) is one which is untainted by sin and unaffected by the human ego. Mary’s soul was preserved free from the stain of original sin from the first instant God fashioned it. Luke’s use of the simple present signifies the permanence and immutability of the pure state of Mary’s soul. The present continuous or perfect tense (“is magnifying” or “has magnified”) would conflict with the Church’s belief in Mary’s constant sinlessness. Luke chose his grammatical exponents very carefully to render an accurate understanding of a tradition which was preserved and further articulated by the Church Fathers.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
mlchance said:
Seen it. When that verse was written, the New Testament as you and I know it did not exist as an authoritative collection of documents. In Revelation 22:18-20, John is either referring to the Old Testament, to Revelation itself, or to both. He couldn’t have been referring to the New Testament, because the New Testament did not exist at that time.

– Mark L. Chance.
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michance,
Thats one way to explain away books of the Bible you don’t agree with. Rev. was written by John. 95 A.D.
The topic here is praying to Mary. She can’t hear you. The Bible doesn’t teach us to pray to a creature.
What passage can you provide?

jean8
 
jean8 said:
michance,
Thats one way to explain away books of the Bible you don’t agree with. Rev. was written by John. 95 A.D.
The topic here is praying to Mary. She can’t hear you. The Bible doesn’t teach us to pray to a creature.
What passage can you provide?

jean8
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**Even if Revelation was written in 95 AD, that’s still only sixty-two years after the Crucifixion - only a lifetime, if that much.

I posted and asked you previously: WHERE in the bible does it specifically say that the saints in Heaven *cannot *hear our prayers and do not intercede for us? Once you can point that out, then a more deeper discussion can take place.

To think of those in heaven as unwilling or unable to pray for us is to have a grave misconception of heaven. It is not an isolated part of the body of Christ that exists without concern for the other members of the body who are still working out their salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). Those in heaven surround us as a “great cloud of witnesses” (Heb. 12:1), and the book of Revelation teaches that the prayers they offer for us “saints” is an integral part of the eternal worship given to God.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19–31), the rich man shows concern for his family on earth, even though he is in hell. If a person in hell has such concern, and those in heaven are perfected in love and can finally pray with an undivided heart for the Church of God, how could they not be concerned about our salvation?

The book of Revelation describes people in heaven who are aware of the happenings on earth (Rev. 6:11; 7:13–14). They have this capacity according to God’s designs and not of their own power. Paul alluded to this when he said, “Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood” (1 Cor. 13:12).

Those in heaven are part of the mystical body of Christ, and have not been separated from us by death. Christ is the vine, and we are the branches. So, if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together with them as well. Thus, the angels and saints stand before the throne of God, offer our prayers to him, and cheer us on as we run the good race.

If those in heaven are of no help to us, is it that they do not care, or does God forbid them to know of our toil and render them incapable of praying for us?

Jean, I encourage you to to take this to prayer, asking the Father if this is truly his plan for the body of Christ.

Since Mary is in heaven, it is literally true that she does not have time to answer all the petitions—she has eternity. Time in the afterlife is not the same as it is here, and so this is not an insurmountable problem. In regard to the number of petitions, if the number were infinite, then an omniscient mind would be required. So long as the number is finite, then the hearer requires a finite expansion of knowledge, which God could certainly grant to a glorified soul in heaven. In a chatroom, 50 people can communicate simultaneously from around the world. If modern technology can enable humans to do this, God is infinitely capable “by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think” (Eph. 3:20).**

P.S. This was a previous posting that was not addressed by you.
 
peary said:
**Even if Revelation was written in 95 AD, that’s still only sixty-two years after the Crucifixion - only a lifetime, if that much.

I posted and asked you previously: WHERE in the bible does it specifically say that the saints in Heaven *cannot ***hear our prayers and do not intercede for us? Once you can point that out, then a more deeper discussion can take place.

To think of those in heaven as unwilling or unable to pray for us is to have a grave misconception of heaven. It is not an isolated part of the body of Christ that exists without concern for the other members of the body who are still working out their salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). Those in heaven surround us as a “great cloud of witnesses” (Heb. 12:1), and the book of Revelation teaches that the prayers they offer for us “saints” is an integral part of the eternal worship given to God.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19–31), the rich man shows concern for his family on earth, even though he is in hell. If a person in hell has such concern, and those in heaven are perfected in love and can finally pray with an undivided heart for the Church of God, how could they not be concerned about our salvation?

The book of Revelation describes people in heaven who are aware of the happenings on earth (Rev. 6:11; 7:13–14). They have this capacity according to God’s designs and not of their own power. Paul alluded to this when he said, “Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood” (1 Cor. 13:12).

Those in heaven are part of the mystical body of Christ, and have not been separated from us by death. Christ is the vine, and we are the branches. So, if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together with them as well. Thus, the angels and saints stand before the throne of God, offer our prayers to him, and cheer us on as we run the good race.

If those in heaven are of no help to us, is it that they do not care, or does God forbid them to know of our toil and render them incapable of praying for us?

Jean, I encourage you to to take this to prayer, asking the Father if this is truly his plan for the body of Christ.

Since Mary is in heaven, it is literally true that she does not have time to answer all the petitions—she has eternity. Time in the afterlife is not the same as it is here, and so this is not an insurmountable problem. In regard to the number of petitions, if the number were infinite, then an omniscient mind would be required. So long as the number is finite, then the hearer requires a finite expansion of knowledge, which God could certainly grant to a glorified soul in heaven. In a chatroom, 50 people can communicate simultaneously from around the world. If modern technology can enable humans to do this, God is infinitely capable “by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think” (Eph. 3:20).

P.S. This was a previous posting that was not addressed by you.
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peary,
the Bible teaches, we are to direct our prayers to God the Father. He is omnipreasent, all knowing , all powerful. Mary and the saints you pray to do not possess these attribues. They cannot hear you. Futhermore, the Bible doesn’t tell us to pray to Mary, only the RCC does does.

JEAN8
 
jean8 said:
peary,
the Bible teaches, we are to direct our prayers to God the Father. He is omnipreasent, all knowing , all powerful. Mary and the saints you pray to do not possess these attribues. They cannot hear you. Futhermore, the Bible doesn’t tell us to pray to Mary, only the RCC does does.

JEAN8
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How sad for you. A closed mind is a wasted mind.You didn’t even read my post.
 
Dear Jean8,

Having observed how you have responded, or I should sa NOT responded to the others who have shown you how Mary and the saints intercede on our behalf, I can only surmise you aren’t here to seek the Truth, but to refute it. If you were here with an open mind perhaps your questions could be taken seriously. But it is obvious you have your mind made up and don’t intend to budge an inch. I feel sad for you since you’ve decided to go your own way. Perhpas someday you’ll lay aside your prejudice and see that millions upon millions of catholics have been right about this simple bit of wisdom for over two thousand years. But for now you’ve chosen another path. I wish you well and will continue to pray for you.

Peace,

Gail

P.S. I’m kinda disappointed you didn’t respond to my post about Lourdes. I thought it would be interesting to hear a protestant take on all those miracles.
 
jean8 said:
Thats one way to explain away books of the Bible you don’t agree with.
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:rolleyes:
jean8 said:
Rev. was written by John. 95 A.D.
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And in A.D. 95 the New Testament as we know it did not exist.
jean8 said:
The topic here is praying to Mary. She can’t hear you. The Bible doesn’t teach us to pray to a creature.
What passage can you provide?
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This thread is chock-full of people answering that question over and over again.

What passage can you provide that says the Blessed Virgin can’t hear us? What passage can you provide that shows the Bible doesn’t teach us to pray to a creature?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Rolltide said:
If that’s not enough, I can give you a few dozen quotes from the Early Church Fathers, but since you only believe in the authority of the Bible, I don’t think they would hold much weight (even if they WERE taught directly by the Apostles, which they were…)
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Hi Rolltide
I know that you spent alot of time on comming up with so many verses, but there wasn’t one verse that told us as Christians that we were to pray to the Saints. I’m not saying that they can’t hear us, I’m just saying that Scripture doesn’t state it.
 
Mach1Man said:
Hi Rolltide
I know that you spent alot of time on comming up with so many verses, but there wasn’t one verse that told us as Christians that we were to pray to the Saints. I’m not saying that they can’t hear us, I’m just saying that Scripture doesn’t state it.
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Did you know that Scripture doesn’t state we should go by Scriptura alone? That is a tradition of man; and only 500 years old at that. Do you know that Scripture doesn’t state which books should be included in the Bible? Did you know that Scripture doesn’t state that all we need for assured salvation is faith alone? In fact, here is the only place in Scripture where the term “faith alone” appears. Can you show us one verse that says we should do “altar calls”, have Wednesday night Bible study or Sunday as the day of worship? Mach1Man, what is the pillar and bullwark of truth? The Bible or the Church? How many truths are there?
 
I just had a thought about the sola scriptura stuff and thought I’d share…Since Jesus and His diciples didn’t walk around with Bibles pointing out what to believe and not believe, should we take His Word for an authority on anything? After all, He didn’t have a Bible to point to to give Him any authority…hmmmmmm…am I onto something? Sound ridiculous? But that’s how some of the Pharisees condemned Him…they wanted to know **by whose authority **He gave His teaching. Sound familiar?:rolleyes:

Peace,

Gail
 
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