How and why to pray through Mary?

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So “common sense” = Gods Truth.

Where are the biblical examples of Gods children praying to God through departed saints? Did Peter or Paul teach the new converts to pray to God through Stephen?

.
I don’t doubt that they did. It is from the Liturgy of St. James that we have the oldest intercessory prayers used in the Mass.

How could anyone, seeing how Stephen died, NOT think that he had God’s ear!

I bet Paul asked his forgiveness for consenting to His death. He sure spent his whole life making reparation for it.
 
**I dont think you have come here with a spirit of dialogue. **members are telling you that the bible says: “Prayers of a righteous person are effective with God”, they are also telling you that scripture calls Mary righteous (“full of grace”), grace which saves you and which doesn’t allow sin to have dominion over you, and you still insist that where does the bible talk about Mary’s prayers being effective. Guess what? Im Ugandan, and Ugandans are East Africans. But you are asking me to prve that Mikel is an East african. Good luck in your search for God’s Church but I wont be suprised if you one day come back here to give your conversion story.
I agree with your judgment that the poster you refer to is not here with a spirit of dialog, Mike. In fact, this poster is very remeniscent of one who has been suspended…Elish Maura. Seems to like the same topics too. :confused:
 
I agree with your judgment that the poster you refer to is not here with a spirit of dialog, Mike. In fact, this poster is very remeniscent of one who has been suspended…Elish Maura. Seems to like the same topics too. :confused:
WHOOPS…S/B: reminiscent
 
jean8,
We really want to try to help you understand and learn. You are here for a reason, so please open your mind and your heart and hear what we are saying. There is so much common sense and proof to what we are saying. But, if you keep your mind so closed and refute everything we are teaching you without truly researching and looking into it first, then your efforts are futile and disrespectful to those who are giving you so much scholarship. The proof is there and we are giving it to you. There is too much history and proof to deny. You just have to research it, and you WILL SEE!!! It is just probably that you have never been taught any of this, actually taught against much of this, and it has to be difficult to be willing to go “against” your Church. It is scarry. I am sure that Catholocism was here teaching, practicing, understanding, all of this for at least 1500 years before your Church was established. Jesus founded One Church with One Truth, and the Catholic Church has carried that forward for 2,000 years. We will not steer you wrong. We will not teach heresy. Heresy was committed against the Catholic Church with every single different belief and different teaching by any person or any Church. We teach the Truth from the time of Jesus. Every other Church came after (long after) the Catholic Church. Don’t worry about going “against” your Church in search of the Truth. Look forward to learning God’s full Truth as only we can teach it to you. There is so much more out there than you have been taught. It is really beautiful. I found myself getting really upset at your instant refuting of our information because I knew that you had been taught to believe something entirely different and that you hadn’t done any research into it outside of your own Church’s beliefs. I prayed about it, and it was pressed upon me to write you this appeal.
 
I am a Catholic. But in my childhood I was bombarded with Protestant beliefs and ideologies.

I’m still a Catholic though. But, to this day I find it difficult or sometimes even silly to pray through Mary or the saints.

I pray to Jesus and the Father. And I’m heard. So why should I pray through Mary or the saints? How can I be sure that St.“so and so” is hearing me? And what’s the advantage of doing that when I know Christ hears me and so does the Father? Or is it that they cannot always hear me?

When did this practice of praying through Mary and the saints begin?
the Bible teaches us to pray to God the Father. Mt.6:9
There isn’t one passage that teaches we are to pray to Mary.
Mary is not omnipresent, she can’t hear our prayers.
It’s a lovely idea, but it isn’t biblical.

God bless,
jean8
 
I truly feel so sorry for people like jean8 that have been so ingrained with man-made traditions like Sola Scriptura. You are in my prayers jean8! :gopray2:
 
jean8,
We really want to try to help you understand and learn. You are here for a reason, so please open your mind and your heart and hear what we are saying. There is so much common sense and proof to what we are saying. But, if you keep your mind so closed and refute everything we are teaching you without truly researching and looking into it first, then your efforts are futile and disrespectful to those who are giving you so much scholarship. The proof is there and we are giving it to you. There is too much history and proof to deny. You just have to research it, and you WILL SEE!!! It is just probably that you have never been taught any of this, actually taught against much of this, and it has to be difficult to be willing to go “against” your Church. It is scarry. I am sure that Catholocism was here teaching, practicing, understanding, all of this for at least 1500 years before your Church was established. Jesus founded One Church with One Truth, and the Catholic Church has carried that forward for 2,000 years. We will not steer you wrong. We will not teach heresy. Heresy was committed against the Catholic Church with every single different belief and different teaching by any person or any Church. We teach the Truth from the time of Jesus. Every other Church came after (long after) the Catholic Church. Don’t worry about going “against” your Church in search of the Truth. Look forward to learning God’s full Truth as only we can teach it to you. There is so much more out there than you have been taught. It is really beautiful. I found myself getting really upset at your instant refuting of our information because I knew that you had been taught to believe something entirely different and that you hadn’t done any research into it outside of your own Church’s beliefs. I prayed about it, and it was pressed upon me to write you this appeal.
AFH,
Thank you for your concern. 🙂
I’m a Missouri Synod Lutheran. I’m also over 75 years old. 🙂
I have been a christian for a looong time. 🙂
I do not judge anyones salvation, but I will discuss doctrine.
Please see 2Tim.3:16 I trust the word of God, not what man has added to the Bible. You have the magisterium to thank for your errors.
The Apostlic church was Christ’s church in 30A.D.
The first 280 years of Christian history, christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, but that’s another subject.

God bless,
jean8
 
I truly feel so sorry for people like jean8 that have been so ingrained with man-made traditions like Sola Scriptura. You are in my prayers jean8! :gopray2:
Speaking of “Man- Made Traditions” 😛
May I name a few that the RCC espouse. Assumption of Mary, No scripture, the Bible is silent as to what happened to Mary. I’m positive she is in the presence of our Savior. 🙂
Did Mary need a Savior? she tells us she did in Lu.1:47
Immaculate Conception? What scripture?
Yes, I have been ingrained in the Holy Bible, just as you have been ingrained by the RCC.
I’ll go with the Word of God, not a church.
If you pray for me, pray directly to God the Father, He can hear you. He is Omnipresent. He hears all prayers, at all times, that are directed to Him, from everywhere. Creatures do not possess this attribute. 🙂

God bless you,
jean8
 
There isn’t one passage that teaches we are to pray to Mary.
Okay. Now please list those passages that forbid us from doing so.
Mary is not omnipresent…
Correct.
…she can’t hear our prayers.
Please list those passages of Scripture that say she can’t.
Please see 2Tim.3:16 I trust the word of God, not what man has added to the Bible.
2 Timothy was added to the Bible by men.
Assumption of Mary, No scripture, the Bible is silent as to what happened to Mary.
Then based on sola scriptura, so should you be.
Did Mary need a Savior? she tells us she did in Lu.1:47
The Church says nothing different.
Immaculate Conception? What scripture?
This has been addressed in this very thread. By the way, here’s Martin Luther regarding the Immaculate Conception:
"Martin Luther:
“…so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin…And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin.” (Martin Luther’s Works, vol 4, pg 694)

"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, " (ibid. vol 52, pg 39)

“. . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.” (Ref: Luther’s Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968)
Creatures do not possess this attribute.
You keep saying this like it somehow limits what God can do.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
I would say I go with Sacred and Oral Tradition. That is definitely backed up in the Bible. Sola Scriptura is not.

Peace 🙂
 
Jean8,
Luther added alone to the Bible. He added to the canon and took away from the canon to create his version of the Bible. The Lutheran Church was founded by MAN, not Jesus. I understand that you have been a Christian for a long time. The Lutheran Church has been steeped in it’s own teachings and traditions, untrue teachings of Catholocism since WAY before you were born. If that is the only teaching you know, then you have been taught by a Church founded in the 1500’s by man. That man separated everyone who followed him from the original Church founded by Christ that had been in existence for 1500 years before Luther made changes. The Lutheran Church didn’t teach you the Truth as it had been known for 1500. It has taught you Luther’s version and the subsequent re-inventing of interpretation, omission of sacred Scripture, lies about the Catholic Church, to justify the changes. It is by the Catholic Magisterium that any of Christ’s teachings were preserved, and written for you or any Christian to have a Bible at all! The Magisterium hasn’t changed one bit of interpretation of Scripture or doctrine. Luther is the one that did that. If you trust in the Bible you read at all, then you have to trust the people who gave it to you - the Catholic Church. I, however, wouldn’t trust the changes that Luther made to it.
 
Jean8,
Luther founded Protestantism with the beliefs of the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, Mary as the Mother of God, Marian Dogma. His dying prayers were intercessory prayer to MARY!!!

There are plenty of places in scripture that prove intercessory prayer, Immaculate Conception, Mary as the Mother of God, the Communion of Saints, but, you just ignore it, or say it means something else. These are not man-made traditions. Luther established man-made traditions and man-made doctrine and man made self interpretation of Scripture when he created his own version of the Bible.

You say that we believe what we believe because we have been ingrained by the RCC. How could you not possibly see that that actually applies to you, your Church, any Protestant or non-C Church for that matter, much more than it could for any Catholic. We have understood and practiced what you call man-made for
2,000 years. Luther even practiced it!!! His initial reason for Reform had nothing to do with Catholic Doctrine, Catholic Teachings, Catholic Interpretation. His problem was the sale of indulgences and other scandalous actions that were admonished and actually corrected at Trent BEFORE the Reformation. Have you ever researched how Luther changed, how his beliefs changed, the dishonest bunk he was spreading after Trent when his popularity and political influence was increasing. He changed everything as you know it - NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! That is what you have been taught and know. Just because you don’t know the Truth does not mean that it does not exist.

You immediately refute everything we say, with no proof, just your interpretation of scripture, which tells all of us that you really don’t care about the Truth. You are hoping to take your altered Bible, you and your Church’s self/individual interpretation of Scripture and use it to argue against the people who gave it to you - The Catholic Church.

The Catholic’s gave you (and Luther) the Word of God. Don’t think for one moment we don’t know what we are talking about. God can allow anyone to hear anything he wants them to. We have given you many passages in the Bible where intercessory prayer is supported, Jesus taught it, the Apostles taught it and you just won’t take your blinders off.
 
Ummmmmm…what I’m going to say is simply common sense…when Jesus called 12 men to come follow Him, He didn’t sit them down and give dictation. There was no Bible handed out by itinerant preachers and self-proclaimed prophets during the life time of Jesus, nor was there any such thing for hundreds of years in the early Church. Does this mean that the Apostles were wrong in giving their teaching orally? and preserving the oral traditions of the early church in such a way?

**The Word was spread for hundreds of years without the use of a single Bible. **

It is the **Holy Spirit **that gives life to the printed words on the pages of every Bible. He is living among us and is there to guide always. Jesus said He would come, that is why He had to go away, so the Holy Spirit would come and remind us of all He taught. We still rely upon this Divine Guidance today. God kept His word to us and no one pointed to a Scripture passage in a book to tell Him He couldn’t do so.

There is an example given us that I think applies to these kinds of debates…Jesus is appearing to Thomas for the first time after the ressurrection. Thomas was unbelieving of the witness borne by the Apostles and others that Jesus had risen form the dead. Jesus appears and Thomas more than makes up for his lack of faith after physically touching Jesus’ hands and side and triumphantly cries out, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus responds to Thomas and all those yet to “see” and declares, blessed are those who haven’t seen yet believe! This is the gift of faith! I don’t need to see to believe. I trust God and He hasn’t let me down yet!

And so, it goes…blessed are the average faithful who haven’t seen yet believe simply because the Church says so. No big fancy theological debates or hundreds of Bible studies to come to faith. It truely is a gift from God. And when the person who desires to obtain it is ready and asks it of the Lord, it is given them. This same gift is given to those outside of the Body on a day to day basis. And that is how the Church grows in very simple ways.

Peace,

Gail
 
Speaking of “Man- Made Traditions”
May I name a few that the RCC espouse. Assumption of Mary, No scripture, the Bible is silent as to what happened to Mary. God bless you.
jean8
The Assumption of Mary boils down to the keeping of the Fourth Commandment: “Honour thy father and thy mother.” A divine command is as explicit as divine revelation can be. We Christians are expected to heed what Jesus said in the Gospel about honouring our parents. To be indifferent to his words, or to reject them entirely, amounts to a terrible lack of faith much less no faith at all. And so true Christians believe that there is no other saint and human being in heaven other than the mother of our Lord who exists body and soul together with her Divine Son, having preceded the rest of the faithfully departed who sleep in Christ until the resurrection on the last day. We know this to be true because of our personal understanding of Jesus and complete faith in his word. By listening to the Word of God, we are certain Mary was taken body and soul into heaven by the power of the Holy Spirit, who overshadowed her in the Annunciation. From the Gospel of Matthew:

“HONOUR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER. ANYONE WHO CURSES HIS FATHER OR HIS MOTHER MUST BE PUT TO DEATH.”

Jesus obeyed God’s commandments while dwelling among us. Scripture reveals that the Son of Man was like us in all things but sin. He gave no just cause for anyone to condemn him for what he taught and did. Nor did our Lord do anything that he himself would disapprove of and displease his heavenly Father. Our Lord could never condemn himself in his actions, for they truly reflected his divine words.

“The Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise; where now, rejoined to the soul, Mary rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones.”
Gregory of Tours, ‘Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4’ (inter A.D. 575-593)

True Christians must find it hard to believe that our Lord could possibly ever dismiss one of his own commandments and go back on his word by casting the curse of Eve on his mother.

“IN PAIN YOU SHALL BRING FORTH CHILDREN…UNTIL YOU RETURN TO THE GROUND FROM WHICH YOU WERE TAKEN. FOR YOU ARE DIRT, AND TO DIRT YOU SHALL RETURN.”

Before I continue, may I advise Catholics to reconsider whether it is acceptable to believe that Mary experienced the pangs of childbirth. This belief cannot be reconciled with our belief in Mary’s Assumption. The curse of Eve is twofold. Anyway, Jesus meant what he said about the Fourth Commandment, and he exemplified with Divine perfection while he was on earth how we are to honourably treat our parents. Thus no true Christian can possibly believe that our Lord could be so indifferent to his mother by leaving her body in the pit of corruption despite his power to deliver her from the grave. Professed Christians who reject the Church’s teaching on the Assumption of Mary basically deny their faith in our Lord’s perfect divine love and his honour of the truth of his word. When tempted by Satan, Jesus told the devil:

“IT IS WRITTEN. THE LORD YOUR GOD SHALL YOU WORSHIP, AND HIM ALONE SHALL YOU SERVE.”

Holy Scripture reveals the Son of Man kept God’s commandments. He would have displeased his heavenly Father and so be untrue to himself if he hadn’t. The Word made flesh would have contradicted the eternal Word of God. Jesus honours both his heavenly Father and his blessed mother. And so our Lord, in obedience to the will of his Father, and in love and honour of his mother, has taken our Blessed Mother body and soul into heaven - ahead of us who remain faithful to the end. The Assumption of Mary is all about a son’s perfect love and honour of his parents. Scripture isn’t silent on the Assumption of Mary. Unfortunately it isn’t loud enough for those who fail to listen. But the problem doesn’t lie with the measure of volume. God bless you.

ARISE, O LORD, AND GO TO THY RESTING PLACE, YOU AND THE ARK OF YOUR MIGHT.
Psalm 132, 8

Mary’s tomb, in the Valley of Josaphat, has been empty since apostolic time. The Roman catacombs contain frescoes of Mary that indicate the early Christians implored her intercession during the great persecutions. This may not have been the case, if Mary’s tomb weren’t empty.The empty tomb signalled something exceptional about the mother of our Lord, who in the frescoes is positioned in the centre of Peter and Paul. Only Mary is depicted as a saint who prays for us - the ‘orans’. Under such duress and in fear for their lives, the persecuted Church turned primarily to the Mother of God for her influential intercession. It was believed that no saint was as close to Jesus as his mother was. Peter and Paul’s remains are still in Rome.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Excellent post Good Fella!

On the Assumption of Mary there IS a prefigurement of it in the Old Testament. It is the passing of the Prophet Elijah. He doesn’t die - he is taken to Heaven in a whirlwind on a firey chariot and there are fifty witnesses watching the event from across the Jordan! This is the reason Elijah was expected to return. No one saw him die! The passage is found in the second book of Kings, the second chapter: “1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elias, into heaven, by a whirlwind, that Elias and Eliseus were going from Galgal…The sons of the prophets, that were at Bethel, came forth to Eliseus, and said to him: Dost thou know that, this day, the Lord will take away thy master from thee?..And they two went on together. 7 And fifty men, of the sons of the prophets, followed them, and stood in sight, at a distance: but they two stood by the Jordan…11 And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold, a fiery chariot and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Eliseus saw him, and cried: My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the driver thereof. And he saw him no more:…16 And they said to him: Behold, there are with thy servants, fifty strong men, that can go, and seek thy master, lest, perhaps, the spirit of the Lord, hath taken him up and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said: Do not send. 17 But they pressed him, till he consented, and said: Send. And they sent fifty men: and they sought three days, but found him not.”

So there you have it…if God can do this with a Prophet of the Old Testament, why can’t/didn’t He do the same with His own mother?

Let the Bible thumpers read those pages and weep for their sins against Mary.

Peace,

Gail
 
This is a ridiculous assertion. You cited a verse from Rev. about not adding to the words of the book. The verse applies to the Revelation, and you took it out of context and applied it to all of scripture. It was pointed out to you that the book from which it comes was not part of the NT at the time, so it is not appropriate to apply it in such a way. It has nothing to do with “agreement” of the books.

Furthermore, all the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics, so there is nothing there that Catholics disagree with at all. The books (400+) that were floating around when the Catholic Church put the NT together that did not agree with Catholic teaching were not included in the NT.

Actually, the bible does not “teach” at all. People teach. That is why Jesus commissioned the Apostles to teach. The Apostles taught us to pray for one another, and made no distinction between members of the Body that are still here on earth, and those who have passed on from this life.

It seems that you have a lot to learn about your family history, jean8. 👍
gamera,

2Tim.3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for ‘teaching’, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thorughrly equipped for every good work.”
It may be well for you to read this from verse 1-6

God bless your search,
jean8
 
Okay. Now please list those passages that forbid us from doing so.

Correct.

Please list those passages of Scripture that say she can’t.

2 Timothy was added to the Bible by men.

Then based on sola scriptura, so should you be.

The Church says nothing different.

This has been addressed in this very thread. By the way, here’s Martin Luther regarding the Immaculate Conception:

You keep saying this like it somehow limits what God can do.

– Mark L. Chance.
michance,
Now that you have split the post, you will not receive an answer. 🙂
You will have to learn to concentrate.
jean8
 
the Bible teaches us to pray to God the Father. Mt.6:9
There isn’t one passage that teaches we are to pray to Mary.
Mary is not omnipresent, she can’t hear our prayers.
It’s a lovely idea, but it isn’t biblical.

God bless,
jean8
Fortunately we are not limited to the part of God’s Revelation of Himself that is found in the Scripture. 👍

What brings you to CAF, jean8?
michance,
Now that you have split the post, you will not receive an answer. 🙂
You will have to learn to concentrate.
jean8
What does that mean “split the post”?

It is much easier to read the dialogue when quotes are used, and when they are interspersed with the reply. Maybe you will get used to it if you are here long enough?
 
michance,
Now that you have split the post, you will not receive an answer. 🙂
You will have to learn to concentrate.
jean8
??? jean8, you are the one that brought the subject up first. You will not give an answer to mlchance because I don’t think you have one, so you have to deflect.
 
Please see 2Tim.3:16 I trust the word of God, not what man has added to the Bible. You have the magisterium to thank for your errors.
The Apostlic church was Christ’s church in 30A.D.
The first 280 years of Christian history, christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, but that’s another subject.

God bless,
jean8
Jean, you missed what Paul wrote to Timothy in the preceding two verses.

If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH."
{1 Timothy 3, 14-15}

The Church is the final authority in the mediation of Divine revelation. Sacred Scripture must be interpreted in light of Sacred Tradition by the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church. Without infallible Tradition there would be no infallible Scripture to begin with. It is the Church which has infallibly declared the ontological deity of the Son and the Spirit in a Triune of Persons together with the Father. The written Word makes no such definitive pronouncement. If the Church has erred in her Marian doctrines, then how can we be sure that she hasn’t erred in her Christological and Trinitarian teachings as well by adding human notions to Scripture? The best we could do in this situation would be to pick and choose what we personally wish to believe after examining the Scriptures. In this way Protestantism is limited in arriving at the absolute and immutable divine truth. The fragmentation of this religious movement is the result of this grave limitation.

Fortunately, Jesus founded his One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on Peter and the Apostles, through whom divine authority to preach the Gospel has been conferred on the College of Bishops in union with the Pope: Apostolic Succession. Only the Sacred and Universal Magisterium of the Catholic Church has the authority and charismatic ability to infallibly formulate essential doctrines and promulgate dogmas in light of Scripture and Tradition: the Deposit of Faith. The promised Paraclete guides the Church in all truth (John 16-12-13).

It is true that the universal Church was denied the permanent status of an official state religion among many pagan religions in the Roman empire during the first four centuries. But this historical fact is rather a blessing in disguise. Christianity eventually became the empire’s ‘only’ official state religion by decree of the Emperor Constantine. However, the one visible Church had still existed all that time before then notwithstanding the constraints imposed on her by the preceding Roman emperors. Extant early Christian writings show that the Church, founded by Jesus through the apostles and their valid successors, was alive during the time of the great persecutions and was conscious of her own true identity.

“THOSE, THEREFORE, WHO DESERT THE PREACHING OF THE CHURCH, CALL IN QUESTION THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY PRESBYTERS, NOT TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION OF HOW MUCH GREATER CONSEQUENCE IS A RELIGIOUS MAN, EVEN IN A PRIVATE STATION, THAN A BLASPHEMOUS AND IMPUDENT SOPHIST (the so-called Protestant reformers ;)). NOW, SUCH ARE ALL THE HERETICS, AND THOSE WHO IMAGINE THAT THEY HAVE HIT UPON SOMETHING MORE BEYOND THE TRUTH, SO THAT BY FOLLOWING THOSE THINGS ALREADY MENTIONED (the question of the ontological deity of the Son and Spirit 🤷 ), PROCEEDING ON THEIR WAY VARIOUSLY, INHARMONIOUSLY, AND FOOLISHLY, NOT ALWAYS KEEPING TO THE SAME OPINIONS WITH REGARD TO THE SAME THINGS (Luther vs Calvin vs Zwingli vs Wesley vs Knox …), AS BLIND MEN ARE LED BY THE BLIND, THEY SHALL DESERVEDLY FALL INTO THE DITCH OF IGNORANCE LYING IN THEIR PATH, EVER SEEKING AND NEVER FINDING THE TRUTH. IT BEHOOVES US, THEREFORE, TO AVOID THEIR DOCTRINES, AND TO TAKE CAREFUL HEED LEST WE SUFFER ANY INJURY FROM THEM; BUT TO FLEE TO THE CHURCH, AND BE BROUGHT UP IN HER BOSOM, AND BE NOURISHED WITH THE LORD’S SCRIPTURES (The Deposit of Faith).”
Irenaeus, ‘Against Heresies, 5, 20:2’ (A.D. 180)

" THIS VIRGIN MOTHER, OF THE ONLY-BEGOTTEN OF GOD, IS CALLED MARY, WORTHY OF GOD, IMMACULATE OF THE IMMACULATE, ONE OF THE ONE."
Origen, ‘Homily 1’ (A.D. 244)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
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