How and why to pray through Mary?

[Rolltide]

flameburns62,

I live in the United States, which has slightly less than 300 million people. We live in a democracy, but it is not a participatory democracy, it is a representative one. In other words, the country is too big for each and every citizen to serve in the government, like the ancient Greeks did. So, instead, I vote for a senator, judge, president, and so on to represent me. The odds are that I will never meet most of these individuals in my lifetime (when was the last time you spoke with the president?), and yet, they are my advocates. They listen to what their constituents want and represent them in the government.

Now, reread your argument. Just something to think about.

 

[emeraldisle]

Even if that were true, it is an irrelevant fact to Catholics, because it has been passed down through Sacred Tradition.

Is what God says in His written word about prayer irrelevant?

However, the verses DO provide substantial evidence for it from the Catholic point of view. Just because you disagree does not make it so. Further, since Mary is indeed a saint (unless you’re somehow claiming that she wasn’t human, and I know you’re not), all of the relevant passages that apply to saints apply to Mary as well.

I know you posted a lot of verses but none of them teach Christians to pray to God through Mary. Also you could post the whole Bible and still not be able to show any biblical evidence for praying to God through Mary.

Does the Lord Jesus teach us to pray to the Father through the saints?

I mean no disrespect, I’m simply trying to present our side of the argument. We are simply going to have to amicably disagree on this one.

I know this is an Apologetics forum, a place to discuss & debate.

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[emeraldisle]

Rolltide you sure did a great job presenting all those verses. They are so beautiful to read - powerful words.

I’m glad the verses were presented because they give clear biblical evidence that God doesn’t teach His children to pray to Him through Mary. Also if I posted these verse there would have been the usual “sola Scriptura” comments and the he’s just giving us “his own” interpretation of the Scriptures.

I love her and will never treat her less just because someone wants us to find that specific verse in the Bible. God who created Mary without original sin can only be pleased by our admiration and use as an intercessor for our benefit, the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gods Truth isn’t subject to emotional feelings.

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[iaskquestions]

I’m glad the verses were presented because they give clear biblical evidence that God doesn’t teach His children to pray to Him through Mary. Also if I posted these verse there would have been the usual “sola Scriptura” comments and the he’s just giving us “his own” interpretation of the Scriptures.
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Oh cmon. I think you’ve either not read the verses or you’ve not comprehended them.

From the verses and Rolltide’s arguments I (the one who started the thread) understood this:

1. We can seek the intercession of other people. God does not forbid it.
2. The saints in heaven can hear us and they offer our prayers to God, so it is not wrong to seek their intercession too. God does not forbid it.
3. And Mary is, to say the least, atleast a saint. So it is not wrong to seek her intercession.

What you are asking for is this that there should be a verse that says, “Seek Mary’s interccession”. There’s no such verse in the Bible, but clearly from the verses that Rolltide has provided, the logical conclusion is that praying through the saints is not wrong. So praying through Mary is also not wrong.

Now, you’re arguing that God didn’t say specifically to pray through Mary. I might also say something like this, “God didn’t say that you use the piano to aid in worship. God didn’t say you use electrical instruments and other gadgets for aiding in worship. God didn’t say you use mikes and speakers when you evangelize…”

You see, the point here is that just because God didn’t say such a thing, it does not imply that the thing is wrong. Even common sense will tell you that using mikes and speakers for evangelization is not wrong. Likewise, even common sense should tell you that seeking the intercession of the saints is not wrong.

 

[iaskquestions]

Is what God says in His written word about prayer irrelevant?

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We never claim that what God says in His written word about prayer is irrelevant. We also pray directly to the Father and to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit. But in addition to that we also pray through the saints. There’s nothing wrong with that, God did not forbid it in the written scripture, nor did the Early Church (which presumably understood the faith better than us).

 

[GJx86]

I’m glad the verses were presented because they give clear biblical evidence that God doesn’t teach His children to pray to Him through Mary. Also if I posted these verse there would have been the usual “sola Scriptura” comments and the he’s just giving us “his own” interpretation of the Scriptures.

I’m curious: How do you infer that if the Bible doesn’t specifically forbid something, then it is implicitly forbidden? Where does the Bible say that we shouldn’t do, think, or say anything that isn’t in the Bible?

I ask because you’ve been given the chain of inference iaskquestions has just summed up and rejected it out of hand by saying, “That inference is wrong because it’s not explicitly made in the Bible.” Reason is a gift from God, and it works whether the conclusions we draw from it are explicitly in the Bible or not.

You keep being asked for a verse that prohibits Christians from asking the saints to intercede on their behalf. You could easily end this discussion by providing one. If you can’t provide one, then why isn’t it acceptable for Catholics to hold one view of intercessory prayer while you hold a different view?

It seems to me that the Bible implicitly permits any theological belief that it doesn’t implicitly or explicitly forbid. Where does it say otherwise? Failing that, where does it forbid asking Mary for intercession? If it doesn’t do either of these things, why can’t we Catholics hold the view we do?

 

[iaskquestions]

If you still fail to understand I would recommend that you read this article and then judge for yourself.

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[iaskquestions]

Dear Emerald, if you are genuinely seeking the truth, I would advise you to also read about how this practice began and what the early church had to say about it.

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Oh cmon. I think you’ve either not read the verses or you’ve not comprehended them.

What you are asking for is this that there should be a verse that says, “Seek Mary’s interccession”. There’s no such verse in the Bible, but clearly from the verses that Rolltide has provided, the logical conclusion is that praying through the saints is not wrong. So praying through Mary is also not wrong.

Now, you’re arguing that God didn’t say specifically to pray through Mary.

EI isn’t interested in discussion, despite claims to the contrary. I am curious to see if s/he will repeat the denial of asking for explicit statements from Scripture. I guess “demanding” them isn’t the same as “asking” for them.

You’re right in suspecting that s/he either isn’t reading or understanding what has been repeatedly offered. That is exactly what seems to happen on every other thread s/he “contributes” to.

I’ve repeatedly asked him/her where -]the Bible/-], ooops, -]Scripture/-], ooops; “God’s written word” say NOT to pray to the saints, but the question is repeatedly ignored.

As is the fact that -]the Bible/-], ooops, -]Scripture/-], ooops; “God’s written word” does show that we can ask the saints to pray for us.

It obviously & repeatedly shows that we are not only to pray for others, but to ask others to pray for us, just as Paul did in Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, & 2 Thess. 3:1.

Not only can we ask other members of the Body of Christ on earth for their prayers for us, but we can also ask other members of the Body of Christ in heaven, the saints, for theirs.

The Bible (which IS “Gods written word”), shows plainly that:
A) The saints in heaven are alive, (Mark 12:27: Matt. 22:32; Luke 20:38; Rev 3, 5, 8, …)
B) The saints in heaven are righteous, (Rev. 21:27) and
C) The prayer of the righteous is powerful & effective (James 5:16)

As such, Catholics choose to follow St. Paul’s example in asking the saints on earth to pray for us, but we also ask our brothers & sisters, the saints in heaven, to pray for us as well.

S/he can’t seem to understand, or just doesn’t care, that not only is the practice of prayer to the saints not contrary to the Bible, but is in fact, both supported & encouraged by it.

God bless,

Chris

 

[DebChris]

I just found this on a different site. Who knew?

youtube.com/watch?v=l75GprnQuOE

 

[emeraldisle]

Likewise, even common sense should tell you that seeking the intercession of the saints is not wrong.

So “common sense” = Gods Truth.

Where are the biblical examples of Gods children praying to God through departed saints? Did Peter or Paul teach the new converts to pray to God through Stephen?

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[LilyM]

So “common sense” = Gods Truth.

Where are the biblical examples of Gods children praying to God through departed saints? Did Peter or Paul teach the new converts to pray to God through Stephen?

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Sheesh, there aren’t any biblical examples of God’s children using cars or computers either - or of Peter or Paul teaching their converts to do so. By your logic cars and computers are wrong as well.

Perhaps more relevantly, there aren’t any biblical examples of altar calls or the sinners prayer, no specific mention of Sunday worship being mandatory … lots of other practices you probably take part in.

 

[emeraldisle]

Dear Emerald, if you are genuinely seeking the truth, I would advise you to also read about how this practice began and what the early church had to say about it.

I noticed you didn’t advise me to search the Scriptures to see if God teaches His children to pray to Him through Mary.

I also noticed that the teaching of man to pray to God through Mary raises another problem and that is how can Mary hear all the prayer requests from millions of Catholics. Of course the answer to this question can’t be found in the Scriptures so I’m sure there’s another man made teaching tradition that explains how it can be done.

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[emeraldisle]

Shesh, there aren’t any biblical examples of God’s children using cars or computers either - or of Peter or Paul teaching their converts to do so. By your logic cars and computers are wrong as well.

cars & computers = praying to God???

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[LilyM]

cars & computers = praying to God???

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I re-edited the post to incude more relevant examples, thank you, so go back and respond to the new matter.

 

[allhers]

Try these verses
Gal.6:10, Gal. 6:2,1 Thess 5:11,Rom 12:10,Rom 8:35ff, Col 3:15.
and we don’t pray through them, with them.
I added that because you will only say next
Where does it say to pray through them?
We got your endless broken record fixed now.

 

[Rolltide]

Emeraldisle,

If something must be absolutely, specifically clear in scripture in order for it to be followed and believed, then how on earth is the Trinity a doctrine? Oh yes, you can find evidence for it in the Bible, but show me the PRECISE verse that said, “God is a Trinity, made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” It doesn’t exist. Sure, you’re going to come back and say, “Yes, well, there’s PLENTY of scripture to support that”, and yet, MANY groups didn’t think so! The Gnostics, Docetists, and Arians of early Christianity ALL disagreed (even as early as just ONE generation after the Apostles!), proving that this dogma was not clear to some people, even from the start. Even today, there are groups that deny the Trinity, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarinans, Universalists, and so on. Despite the lack of a single direct Biblical quote, I think that we both agree that they are wrong and that there is such a thing as the Trinity. If it’s THAT clear, though, how could ANYONE get it wrong? Fortunately, these groups were in the past and remain today in the minority.

Now, back to the praying to saints issue. We Catholics (and Orthodox) seem to have found many scriptural passages that are pretty clear to us that praying to saints is permitted, and we make up the vast majority of Christianity. In other words, our position isn’t some strange twisting of scripture, but seems pretty clear to MOST Christians. Now, I know you disagree, which means that at best, the evidence is not completely clear, but how does that make you any different than someone who denies the Trinity? I haven’t seen the slightest evidence to suggest that the Catholic/Orthodox position is wrong, and frankly, you haven’t won anyone over with your argument. Is there NO possibility that your interpretation, which is a very recent development historically, could be wrong? How do you KNOW your interpretation is correct?

 

[iaskquestions]

Emerald, you said

“I noticed you didn’t advise me to search the Scriptures to see if God teaches His children to pray to Him through Mary.”

"I also noticed that the teaching of man to pray to God through Mary raises another problem and that is how can Mary hear all the prayer requests from millions of Catholics. Of course the answer to this question can’t be found in the Scriptures so I’m sure there’s another man made teaching tradition that explains how it can be done. "

I didn’t advise you to search the Scriptures because you don’t seem to comprehend the scriptures! So I thought it would be better to show you how the early church started the practice.

As far as the question about how Mary can hear the prayer requests from millions of catholics is concerned, I had provided you with a link. If you had only read it, you wouldn’t be asking me that question again.

Anyway, the crux is this - A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life and therefore they can hear requests from millions of people.

As far as the tradition is concerned, I will just ask you one question. Did the early church have the Holy Spirit or not? They did have, otherwise Christianity would not have lasted long. Didn’t Jesus say, “When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth…” (John 16:13). Before that Jesus said, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” (John 16:12).

If Jesus could have revealed all the teaching in one go, then everything would be there in the Bible (i.e the written word), and there would not be a need for the sacred tradition. But Paul tells the Corinthians, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, EITHER BY WORD OF MOUTH OR BY LETTER” (2 Thess. 2:15).

To make sure that the apostolic tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach.

(READ MORE catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp)

It is the Holy Spirit who has revealed this teaching to us. IT IS NOT MAN MADE TEACHING, as you think it is.

 

[iaskquestions]

The Holy Spirit has guided us into all the truth over the centuries, and we cannot ignore it by saying that it is man made teaching. Paul says, “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit…” (Eph 4:30). Even Jesus pleads with us several times in Revelation, “Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.” (Rev 3:22)

We cannot afford to grieve the Holy Spirit by neglecting his teaching and saying that it is man made teaching. That’s all I have to say.

 

[emeraldisle]

Emeraldisle,

If something must be absolutely, specifically clear in scripture in order for it to be followed and believed, then how on earth is the Trinity a doctrine? Oh yes, you can find evidence for it in the Bible, but show me the PRECISE verse that said, “God is a Trinity, made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” It doesn’t exist. Sure, you’re going to come back and say, “Yes, well, there’s PLENTY of scripture to support that”, and yet, MANY groups didn’t think so! The Gnostics, Docetists, and Arians of early Christianity ALL disagreed (even as early as just ONE generation after the Apostles!), proving that this dogma was not clear to some people, even from the start. Even today, there are groups that deny the Trinity, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarinans, Universalists, and so on. Despite the lack of a single direct Biblical quote, I think that we both agree that they are wrong and that there is such a thing as the Trinity. If it’s THAT clear, though, how could ANYONE get it wrong? Fortunately, these groups were in the past and remain today in the minority.

Yes some biblical truths are “specifically” mentioned in Gods written Word and some are “not specifically” mention but they are still Gods Truth and they are revealed to us in His written word.

The bottom line is the teaching of praying to God through departed saints is not in Gods written word. Also why didn’t Peter or Paul teach the new converts to pray to God through Stephen? The truth imo is that the Catholic church supports this teaching through its tradition.

Now, back to the praying to saints issue. We Catholics (and Orthodox) seem to have found many scriptural passages that are pretty clear to us that praying to saints is permitted, and we make up the vast majority of Christianity. In other words, our position isn’t some strange twisting of scripture, but seems pretty clear to MOST Christians.

Majority = Gods Truth ??

Is there NO possibility that your interpretation, which is a very recent development historically, could be wrong? How do you KNOW your interpretation is correct?

I believe what God says in His written word and He teaches His children here on earth to pray for each other and that we pray to Him.

Also the teaching to pray to God through departed saints means that millions of Catholics are praying to Mary and this raises another problem and that is how can Mary hear all the prayer requests from millions of Catholics.

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