How are "Traditionalists" viewed within the church?

[GerardP]

And it is unfortunately exactly this kind of statement, and the “superiority” it implies, that so endears “traditionalists” to so many. The belief that anyone with a different preference is lazy, ill-informed, irreverent, ad nauseum.

Just as sad as those who might truly believe that “traditionalists” are as described there.

It’s not about preferences. For example, I prefer to sleep in on Sunday. But I don’t because I owe God my best out of obedience even when I prefer otherwise.

Maybe that’s why the Pope is hoping that the TLM will enrich the Novus Ordo. The fact is that there are people wearing jeans and sneakers and sweats and shorts and flip flops and tube tops in greater percentages than those wearing what was always called “Their Sunday best”.

In the early 70’s people still dressed up for the Novus Ordo. That eventually went out with the altar rails and communion on the tongue.

I remember before I was a trad that I even noticed that the vestments were getting more and more casual. Too many are looking like bathrobes and nighties.

As the Church goes, so goes the world. The Protestants used to have to keep pace with the Catholics to look legitimate. Now they look more legitimate than the Catholics. I know from discussions with Protestants that they are scandalized with the way Catholics dress going to the Novus Ordo.

It’s going to take the higher demands of the culture of the TLM on the people to bring them back to where they should have never left because of experimentation with sacred things.

Many people are going to have reassess the meaning of the Mass of the ordinary rite in order to reconnect with their Catholic patrimony.

 

[ncjohn]

It’s not about preferences. For example, I prefer to sleep in on Sunday. But I don’t because I owe God my best out of obedience even when I prefer otherwise.

Maybe that’s why the Pope is hoping that the TLM will enrich the Novus Ordo. The fact is that there are people wearing jeans and sneakers and sweats and shorts and flip flops and tube tops in greater percentages than those wearing what was always called “Their Sunday best”.

In the early 70’s people still dressed up for the Novus Ordo. That eventually went out with the altar rails and communion on the tongue.

I remember before I was a trad that I even noticed that the vestments were getting more and more casual. Too many are looking like bathrobes and nighties.

As the Church goes, so goes the world. The Protestants used to have to keep pace with the Catholics to look legitimate. Now they look more legitimate than the Catholics. I know from discussions with Protestants that they are scandalized with the way Catholics dress going to the Novus Ordo.

It’s going to take the higher demands of the culture of the TLM on the people to bring them back to where they should have never left because of experimentation with sacred things.

Many people are going to have reassess the meaning of the Mass of the ordinary rite in order to reconnect with their Catholic patrimony.

And another post that unfortunately goes to the point.

Of course, people who prefer the Pauline Mass sleep in instead.

And they all wear jeans, and there is never a reverent Mass. (Show me ANY statisitc that shows people dressing predominantly as you note, if you can. )

And the “culture of the TLM” has “higher demands”. Demands of what exactly? Are you referring to judging people’s devotion based on subjective externals? TLM dress prettier so God likes them better?

And of course communion on the tongue is “superior” though the Church say otherwise.

Oh, and there’s that small point that the Pope pointed out that the Masses would enrich each other, not just in one direction.

So far I count:

Bashing of those preferring the Ordinary Liturgy: 2
Bashing of “traditionalists”: 0

That there is any bashing at all going on is sad.

 

[Mike_Olson]

What you are going to find is that both sides of the Church use the extremes to malign the more moderates.
You will hear lots of comments that traditionalists think there is no valid pope or that the New Mass is invalid, but these statements are not true for 99% of traditionalists.
You will also hear that all those who are not traditionalists want “clown masses” or women priests, but these are not true for 99% of those who prefer the New Mass.

Charity is missing on both sides, which is the most deplorable situation in the Church today. More deplorable than those claiming the New Mass is an abomination, or those turning it into an abomination. For if we have not Love, we are not followers of Christ.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

I agree with this post. I came to the Catholic Church 2 years ago from a Protestant background. I find it very disturbing that there is such disagreement between Masses. We have the NO mass at the church I attend and it isn’t a clown mass or anything like it. It is a very respectful mass. It is the only Mass I know. I would very much like to attend the TLM to see what all the fuss is about but I will have to drive an hour and a half to get to where it is held. To me we are there to come together with Christ. He is the reason we are there not the type of Mass we attend. I respect both parties as to which Mass they want to attend but both Masses celebrate the same thing or at least they do to me. From what I understand Vatican II didn’t outlaw the TLM but it did open the door to abuses of the Mass according to GIRM I imagine. Even priests are human and can make mistake for various reasons. I can also understand why the Trads are upset because of the inconvenience of having to drive miles and miles to go to Mass. If you go to either Mass our Lord will know what is in your heart won’t he. Actually IMHO to prefer either Mass is our pride talking and we have to lose our pride and our selfs if we are going to follow him. Give our selfs to him and know that he is in control.
Where two or more are gathered in his name there he will be.
Please don’t burn me to much for this post!!! There are some cranky ones here.

PAX

 

[dessert]

I am currently reading and learning as much as I can about catholicism, having been a lapsed catholic for a number of years.

After much research I think that traditional catholic worship appeals to me as I find it more sacred and holy.

However, because I have been absent from the church for many years, I would like to know if there are many other “traditionalists” within the church? Are those who prefer the Latin mass in the minority and how are they viewed by other non-traditional catholics?

We love them to pieces, Welcome Home! :hug1:
Dessert

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

For if we have not Love, we are not followers of Christ.

There are plenty of Catholics who love the Latin Mass and there’s nothing wrong with that. Most of the problems are not so much about the Latin Mass as they are about the Society of Pope Pius X. But there are Latin Masses offered outside the SSPX.

We each have a personal relationship with God which is strengthened in different ways. Some people feel they get more out of the Mass in English while some people feel they get more out of the Mass in Latin. It doesn’t matter what other people prefer. As long as your desires lie within the boundaries of Catholicism, you should follow them. These desires are God calling you closer to Him.

 

[GerardP]

There are plenty of Catholics who love the Latin Mass and there’s nothing wrong with that. Most of the problems are not so much about the Latin Mass as they are about the Society of Pope Pius X. But there are Latin Masses offered outside the SSPX.

We each have a personal relationship with God which is strengthened in different ways. Some people feel they get more out of the Mass in English while some people feel they get more out of the Mass in Latin. It doesn’t matter what other people prefer. As long as your desires lie within the boundaries of Catholicism, you should follow them. These desires are God calling you closer to Him.

The problem is, Traditionalists don’t think this way. As I read more and more of the threads and try and navigate through these forums as a traditionalist, I see a huge gulf between trads and non-trads in the way we actually think. How do we bridge that gulf?

I’ve been trying to put my finger on it and I think the key to it is in the book “Iota Unum” by Romano Amerio his study of the changes in the Church in the 20th Century p(name removed by moderator)oints the difference in the thought processes between the two “camps”.

Unfortunately, it’s a brutally difficult book to read.

Has any non-trad read it?

 

[paramedicgirl]

There is no doubt that the essential glow of the TLM is the supreme reverence. From experience, both old Mass and new with much thinking and praying, I think the most important thing is to “Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength”, then to “love your neighbor as yourself (or as I have loved you - Jn.)”, whether you are a member of the TLM or the Novus Ordo.

That’s a prayer from the “My God, I love Thee” chaplet that I pray every day.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I agree with this post. I came to the Catholic Church 2 years ago from a Protestant background. I find it very disturbing that there is such disagreement between Masses. We have the NO mass at the church I attend and it isn’t a clown mass or anything like it. It is a very respectful mass. It is the only Mass I know. I would very much like to attend the TLM to see what all the fuss is about but I will have to drive an hour and a half to get to where it is held. To me we are there to come together with Christ. He is the reason we are there not the type of Mass we attend. I respect both parties as to which Mass they want to attend but both Masses celebrate the same thing or at least they do to me. From what I understand Vatican II didn’t outlaw the TLM but it did open the door to abuses of the Mass according to GIRM I imagine. Even priests are human and can make mistake for various reasons. I can also understand why the Trads are upset because of the inconvenience of having to drive miles and miles to go to Mass. If you go to either Mass our Lord will know what is in your heart won’t he. Actually IMHO to prefer either Mass is our pride talking and we have to lose our pride and our selfs if we are going to follow him. Give our selfs to him and know that he is in control.
Where two or more are gathered in his name there he will be.
Please don’t burn me to much for this post!!! There are some cranky ones here.

PAX

It isn’t pride to prefer the TLM over the NO, or vice versa. I find myself spiritually empty after attending the NO Mass, and because I feel that places me in real danger of losing my faith altogether, I make a day trip that takes twelve hours, once a month, to attend the FSSP TLM. I come away from there feeling much different than I do from the NO experience. I don’t think that you or others are suffering from pride when you say you prefer the NO Mass, and I take it as an insult that I get accused of pride for prefering the TLM.
There, was that cranky enough for you?

 

[rtconstant]

It isn’t pride to prefer the TLM over the NO, or vice versa. I find myself spiritually empty after attending the NO Mass, and because I feel that places me in real danger of losing my faith altogether, I make a day trip that takes twelve hours, once a month, to attend the FSSP TLM. I come away from there feeling much different than I do from the NO experience. I don’t think that you or others are suffering from pride when you say you prefer the NO Mass, and I take it as an insult that I get accused of pride for prefering the TLM.
There, was that cranky enough for you?

No it isn’t pride to prefer the EF however, when you state that you walk away from receiving Our Lord and say that you are “spiritually empty” simply because you didn’t receive Him in the Mass of personal preference. It can start look like pride.

 

[CatholicNick]

No it isn’t pride to prefer the EF however, when you state that you walk away from receiving Our Lord and say that you are “spiritually empty” simply because you didn’t receive Him in the Mass of personal preference. It can start look like pride.

Ive seen people on this forum say the TLM leaves them “feeling cold”…

Funny how that never gets picked up upon…

 

[paramedicgirl]

No it isn’t pride to prefer the EF however, when you state that you walk away from receiving Our Lord and say that you are “spiritually empty” simply because you didn’t receive Him in the Mass of personal preference. It can start look like pride.

Did I say I went up to receive Communion??? That’s very presumptuous of you. It’s all the innovations and distractions that leave me feeling like I’m in danger of losing my faith, just for the record.

 

[Sure]

Did I say I went up to receive Communion??? That’s very presumptuous of you. It’s all the innovations and distractions that leave me feeling like I’m in danger of losing my faith, just for the record.

Are you talking about the ordinary form but filled with liturgical abuses? Or an ordinary form done reverently according to the rubrics with correct music, etc.? It sounds as though what bothers you is a poorly done Mass and not the ordinary form itself.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Are you talking about the ordinary form but filled with liturgical abuses? Or an ordinary form done reverently according to the rubrics with correct music, etc.? It sounds as though what bothers you is a poorly done Mass and not the ordinary form itself.

The only NO Mass I know is one where people talk incessantly before (sometimes during) and after Mass. People rush around the church socializing so it makes a prayer atmosphere impossible. They clap for the choir. They clap to the music. I’ve even heard them clap for the homily a few times. And speaking of music, some of the songs they play don’t belong in a Church.

Soft, general homilies, that are non-offensive and do nothing to instruct us in deepening our faith or correcting our errors are commonplace. At the sign of peace there is so much movement about the church that it makes me dizzy. People mimic the priest when he prays in the orans position during the Our Father. All of this distracts me to the point where I can’t pray the Mass, and for the spiritual well being of my soul, I have come to prefer the TLM. If you want to accuse me of pride, so be it. It’s my salvation that I’m trying to protect, and attending the NO Mass is endangering my faith.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Ive seen people on this forum say the TLM leaves them “feeling cold”…

Funny how that never gets picked up upon…

I know one person here who makes that claim repeatedly. Does that mean, as rtconstant suggests, that “when you state that you walk away from receiving Our Lord and say that you are “spiritually empty” simply because you didn’t receive Him in the Mass of personal preference. It can start look like pride.”

You see, rt, it works both ways.

 

[ncjohn]

I don’t personally see it as a matter of pride in which Mass you find God more easily. Nor do I see it as a matter of pride, or problematic, if one feels “left cold” in one or the other. The different liturgies are very different in their presentation, and people have different personalities–as well as different experiences–so reacting differently to them would be expected in my opiinion and not at all a problem.

To me, the only problem comes when we start thinking that our preference is universal and superior, or that one Mass is inherently superior. The best Mass for the individual is the one where they hear God most clearly and which most deepens that individual’s devotion. That will vary from person to person, and we all need to be able to respect that.

In the end we follow Christ, not the liturgy, and Christ is one and undivided. Just as Paul decried the divisions of those who were taking “sides” as to which disciple to follow, we must resist the urge to think that we can divide the Body of Christ over which way we best here God calling.

Peace and charity,

 

[Sure]

The only NO Mass I know is one where people talk incessantly before (sometimes during) and after Mass. People rush around the church socializing so it makes a prayer atmosphere impossible. They clap for the choir. They clap to the music. I’ve even heard them clap for the homily a few times. And speaking of music, some of the songs they play don’t belong in a Church.

Soft, general homilies, that are non-offensive and do nothing to instruct us in deepening our faith or correcting our errors are commonplace. At the sign of peace there is so much movement about the church that it makes me dizzy. People mimic the priest when he prays in the orans position during the Our Father. All of this distracts me to the point where I can’t pray the Mass, and for the spiritual well being of my soul, I have come to prefer the TLM. If you want to accuse me of pride, so be it. It’s my salvation that I’m trying to protect, and attending the NO Mass is endangering my faith.

I know what you mean. I have attended these Masses as well, and after attending them you just kind of feel, well, empty. We are fortunate here to have a very reverent ordinary form with good traditional music.

In your case, it sounds like it isn’t so much the extraordinary form that you miss, as it is the reverence and orthodoxy that is missing from the ordinary form that you attend. Aren’t there any other devout Masses anywhere close to you? That must be really rough to have the only good Mass so far away.

God bless.

 

[Sure]

I don’t personally see it as a matter of pride in which Mass you find God more easily. Nor do I see it as a matter of pride, or problematic, if one feels “left cold” in one or the other. The different liturgies are very different in their presentation, and people have different personalities–as well as different experiences–so reacting differently to them would be expected in my opiinion and not at all a problem.

To me, the only problem comes when we start thinking that our preference is universal and superior, or that one Mass is inherently superior. The best Mass for the individual is the one where they hear God most clearly and which most deepens that individual’s devotion. That will vary from person to person, and we all need to be able to respect that.

In the end we follow Christ, not the liturgy, and Christ is one and undivided. Just as Paul decried the divisions of those who were taking “sides” as to which disciple to follow, we must resist the urge to think that we can divide the Body of Christ over which way we best here God calling.

Peace and charity,

Sadly, the difference between the ordinary form and the extraordinary form often seems to be far bigger than it should be because so many ordinary form Masses contain substantial liturgical abuses. Sometimes the only place people can find reverence and orthodoxy is at the EF.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please keep the discussion to the original topic or I will have to close the thread. Thank you.

 

[ncjohn]

Sadly, the difference between the ordinary form and the extraordinary form often seems to be far bigger than it should be because so many ordinary form Masses contain substantial liturgical abuses. Sometimes the only place people can find reverence and orthodoxy is at the EF.

The funny part is that when the Pauline Mass came out, I was so tired of all the abuses of the TLM that the Pauline Mass was a breath of fresh air as far as reverence went.

Many of the things cited as abuses though are not really abuses at all. While I’m not personally at all into Charismatic worship styles and would find them distracting, it does not make them abuses. That’s not to say that there aren’t things out there that are abuses, or that the inside worship space of the church often isn’t respected. But I think that, from my experience in churches over large parts of this country, Canada, and parts of Europe, the level of real abuse gets far overstated.

Yes, we need to work to have our Masses be reverently celebrated as they should be, but we need to realize that sometimes even in that area you get into things that are really only preferences. Because our options are often limited by where we can get to for Mass, we likely will never get a Mass that is exactly the way we would set it up if we had total control. But part of surrender to God is that focus on Him that will lead us away from focusing on the stuff that really isn’t Him.

Hopefully in the near future each of us who desires the options will have them available. I have to wonder though whether that will really stop the “my liturgy is better than yours” stuff. One can only pray.

 

[rtconstant]

Ive seen people on this forum say the TLM leaves them “feeling cold”…

Funny how that never gets picked up upon…

Nice try but no. Even if it wasn’t picked up on that would be one of the kinder negative comments to slung on these boards. Especially when nigh blasphemous and/or disobediant comments made at the expense of the OE that are thrown around here pretty effectively drown out the one or two people here who actually dislike the EF.

But if it makes you feel any better yes its just as bad to disparage the EF as it is the OF.