How are we saved?

[By_His_Mercy]

For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

But this just describes the “what”…they will be saved. It doesn’t describe the “how” God will save them.

Do you think Rom 2:5-10 is still true?

We’re ultimately not saved by works, but don’t you think we’re identified and separated by works? John 5:28-29

I see that the Lord disciplines us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32).

I see that if we confess we receive forgiveness and cleansing of all unrighteousness (1 Jn 1:9).

I believe all of these are “how” God saves.

God bless you,

 

[sandusky]

I agree with attributing blame to the CC for Luther’s splintering, but all the rest of it - intra-Lutheran splits, Weslyans, Adventists, COC, Presbyterian, E-free, non-denom, etc etc etc you cannot, logically, blame on the CC.

Those splits after Luther are denominations.

With respect to “religion,” there are really only two:

1. the religion of Divine Accomplishment: God has done it all.
2. the religion of Human Achievement: God does some, I must do the rest.

Only one of those is true religion.***For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ—*Jn 1:17

O Lord my God, When I in awesome wonder,
Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

When through the woods, and forest glades I wander,
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees.
When I look down, from lofty mountain grandeur
And see the brook, and feel the gentle breeze.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

And when I think, that God, His Son not sparing;
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
That on the Cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

When Christ shall come, with shout of acclamation,
And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart.
Then I shall bow, in humble adoration,
And then proclaim: “My God, how great Thou art!”

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!**

 

[sandusky]

But this just describes the “what”…they will be saved. It doesn’t describe the “how” God will save them.

The “how” is by Grace (Eph 2:8ff).
By His Mercy:

Do you think Rom 2:5-10 is still true?

Why wouldn’t I?
By His Mercy:

We’re ultimately not saved by works, but don’t you think we’re identified and separated by works? John 5:28-29

I have no problem with works, and I encourage you to work your heart out, but if you’re relying on those works for salvation, you might be disappointed—many will say, “Lord,” didn’t we do “this, that and the other in your name?” And I will say to them, “I never knew you.”
By His Mercy:

I see that the Lord disciplines us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32).

You keep repeating that verse; why? What’s the significance of it to you?
By His Mercy:

I see that if we confess we receive forgiveness and cleansing of all unrighteousness (1 Jn 1:9).

I believe all of these are “how” God saves.

God bless you,

OK.

 

[sodak]

It doesn’t challenge it at all. He continues to emphasize the same point in the same context. The difference between a true faith and a mere said faith (Ja. 2:14-18). Don’t lift him out of context.

You might compare it to the difference between one who is religiously baptized and one who is baptized after he has truly believed in Christ. The baptism of the former is dead, the baptism of the latter reflects his true faith, but the baptism didn’t save him, his personal faith in Christ did.

This is a Catholic forum, calling our Sacrament of Baptism dead is completely unacceptable. It is YOU who is lifting James out of context.

As one evangelical preacher that I know is fond of saying, the plain meaning is the main meaning.

 

[sodak]

The assurance of salvation is based on divine revelation. What God Himself has revealed to us about it. So it boils down to a matter of believing or disbelieving His Word. The way it was from the beginning of man’s creation.

Actually, it’s a matter of believing or stubbornly disbelieving what the Church Christ set up teaches.

Those splits after Luther are denominations.

With respect to “religion,” there are really only two:

1. the religion of Divine Accomplishment: God has done it all.
2. the religion of Human Achievement: God does some, I must do the rest.

Only one of those is true religion.

Number 1 is incomplete. God has done it all, and has left specific instructions for us to follow. We either obey or we don’t.

 

[sandusky]

**

1. the religion of Divine Accomplishment: God has done it all.

1. the religion of Human Achievement: God does some, I must do the rest.

Number 1 is incomplete.

God has done it all…** A clear contradiction.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Those splits after Luther are denominations.

With respect to “religion,” there are really only two:

1. the religion of Divine Accomplishment: God has done it all.
2. the religion of Human Achievement: God does some, I must do the rest.

Only one of those is true religion.

***For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ—***Jn 1:17

At arriving at this you just invented yet another top level religion or philosophy to put forward yet another secular teaching of man. Where is this in the bible? You are not a Pope Sandusky and are a mere fallible man or woman. You have no basis or pedigree to make these categories to form false dichotomies that lead to false conclusions.

Without realizing it what you have said here is this:

1. I, Sandusky The Infallible have hereby proclaimed that I know what categories of choices we all have. These are:
   1-1) The Religion of Divine Accomplishment and
   1-2) The Religion of Human Achievement.
2. I, Sandusky the Infallible have hereby proclaimed myself exempt from a Religion of Human Achievement and dictate that God’s religion MUST be one of Divine Accomplishment since this is the only thing that conforms to my way of seeing things.

What you fail to consider is the very nature of God. That nature among other things is simple and indivisible and has non-created aspects which through some mystery simultaneously and perfectly encompass Love, Justice, Mercy etc. while the essence of God is The Trinity. You try to apply an limited human attribute to God called “Accomplishment” as the essence of Religion. Yet you fail to consider the most basic thing we know about God - LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS (Trinity with each Divine Person, Trinity with Man and Man to Trinity and Man to Man). Therefor you miss the closer notion of what our real Religious choices are:

1. A Mystical Two-Way Loving Relationship that is compelled by grace and responded to by will and deed and
2. To not respond to love and to deliberately choose to alienate oneself from God.

Thus there are only two objective outcomes: 1) An Eternal Beatitude of Love with God in Heaven or 2) An Eternal estrangement from God with oneself and one’s own beliefs.

James
​

​

 

[By_His_Mercy]

The “how” is by Grace (Eph 2:8ff).

We all agree on that. But I speak of the details. Imputed justification only? Any sanctification required on judgment day to avoid condemnation? Etc.

Why wouldn’t I?

I got the impression you didn’t…many don’t. Just asking. I’ve heard that that’s just how things were initially “set up”…but it’s not applicable anymore.

I have no problem with works, and I encourage you to work your heart out, but if you’re relying on those works for salvation, you might be disappointed—many will say, “Lord,” didn’t we do “this, that and the other in your name?” And I will say to them, “I never knew you.”

Of course…works are a result of God saving someone. But they’re needed on judgment day…I don’t think imputation is all that’s necessary on judgment day. Let me ask you about that…do you follow the Reformed teaching of justification by 1) forgiveness of sin, plus 2) the imputation of Jesus’ perfect life of obedience? That would help me understand where you’re coming from.

You keep repeating that verse; why? What’s the significance of it to you?

Because I think it refutes sola fide justification. If we’re once-for-all justifed when we convert, then we wouldn’t have to be disciplined so that we won’t be condemned along with the world. Therefore I think the protestant “justification by faith alone” (sola fide) isn’t right. God’s workmanship is required (the CCC says the works are gifts of God…CCC 2007-2011…it’s not pelagian or semipelagianism).

God bless you,

 

[steve_b]

Define “faith.” What is the content of Catholic “faith” that one must have along with participating in the sacraments for Catholics to be saved?

If someone has aleady mentioned this, please excuse. I haven’t read all the posts in this long thread

This is the faith we profess in the creed.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[moondweller]

It’s not salvation by works…it’s identification and separation by works (which were gifts). But that being said…if the works aren’t there, the person is herded over with the goats.

You just contradicted yourself.

The works are the visible means of separation…not the ultimate cause of salvation.

And again. :juggle: You’re juggling the Scriptures to fit your flip-flop gospel.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

You just contradicted yourself.And again. :juggle: You’re juggling the Scriptures to fit your flip-flop gospel.

No, I believe in salvation by election (I’m Thomistic…see below).

God gives grace to forgive, renew, and the renewal shows up visibly on judgment day. We’re identified and separated by the renewal (“I was hungry and you fed Me”…not “I was hungry and you are credited with Me feeding the hungry for you”).

Aquinas…from his “Summa”…

First Part: Treatise on God

Question 23. Of Predestination

Article 5. Whether the Foreknowledge of Merits Is the Cause of Predestination?

On the contrary, The Apostle says (Tit. 3:5) Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. But as He saved us, so He predestined that we should be saved. Therefore, foreknowledge of merits is not the cause or reason of predestination.
…
And so others said that merits following the effect of predestination are the reason of predestination, giving us to understand that God gives grace to a person, and pre-ordains that He will give it, because He knows beforehand that He will make good use of that grace, as if a king were to give a horse to a soldier because he knows he will make good use of it. But these seem to have drawn a distinction between that which flows from grace, and that which flows from free choice, as if the same thing cannot come from both. It is, however, manifest that what is of grace is the effect of predestination, and this cannot be considered as the reason of predestination, since it is contained in the notion of predestination. Therefore, if anything else in us be the reason of predestination, it will be outside the effect of predestination. …
…
In another way, the effect of predestination may be considered in general. Thus, it is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us, because whatsoever is in man ordering him towards salvation is included wholly under the effect of predestination, even the preparation for grace.

Rebly Obj, 3 Yet why He chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will. Hence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi in Joan.): “Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.”

Article 6. Whether Predestination Is Certain?

I answer that, Predestination most certainly and infallibly takes effect; yet it does not impose any necessity, so that, namely, its effect should take place from necessity.

I believe Thomas got it exactly right. We have election and free will at the same time. This last part (“most certainly and infallibly takes effect; yet it does not impose any necessity”) brings us to the brink of our understanding. It’s not determinism (robots)…not by necessity, but God will bring it about and we will really choose. Both are true at the same time. God’s grace can bring out willful cooperation to move His way.

No contradiction. Heck, I can influence my kids to be either loving or hateful. Since God is omnipotent and omniscient, He can certainly cause us to choose Him willingly.

Phil 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

What do you think?

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller,

I wanted to edit my last post to add this to your mention of John 5:24…but it’s too late…so here it is.

John 5:24…the word for “judgment” is from krino…“to judge, to separate, to condemn, …”. I think the KJV translation is just as valid…

John 5:24 (KJV) “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

So I believe we will enter judgment…but people with true persevering faith will not be condemned. This would preserve the sheep and goats, 1 Cor 11:32 (the Lord disciplines us so we won’t be condemned along with the world), Rom 2:5-8, John 5:28-29, etc.

What do you think?

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment (unto condemnation), but has passed out of death (in Adam) into life” (in Christ).I agree with Paul:Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."The true believer is no longer in Adam but is now “in Christ” (resurrected). That’s what it means to “pass out of death and into life.” Christ Himself is the believer’s life. The true believer is now seen as to having died with Him (“unto sin,” “once for all”) and raised to new life in Him (Rom. 6). The true believer is now and forever identified “in Christ,” the “Last Adam,” the “Second Man.”

Salvation and the assurance of it is based on Divine revelation, not left to man’s speculation and teachings based on unbelief in God’s Word.

 

[moondweller]

So just to be clear, are you saying that one cannot have assurance of salvation faith apart from doing good?
If not - I reiterate - what’s the point of bringing it up?

No. James is not talking in the context of “assurance of salvation faith.” He’s exhorting, by example, to proper behavior and good works for their own immediate benefit and to the glory of Christ who redeemed them.

 

[fhansen]

Salvation and the assurance of it is based on Divine revelation, not left to man’s speculation and teachings based on unbelief in God’s Word.

But what is left to our speculation is whether or not we have “saving faith” as opposed to a faith that should make us tremble-a faith referred to in Gods’ Word.

 

[sodak]

A clear contradiction.

Not at all. Just because God has accomplished our salvation, doesn’t mean that he doesn’t require things from us to access this salvation.

Where we differ is exactly what God requires from us. If he didn’t require anything from us, all would be saved, regardless.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Not at all. Just because God has accomplished our salvation, doesn’t mean that he doesn’t require things from us to access this salvation.

Where we differ is exactly what God requires from us. If he didn’t require anything from us, all would be saved, regardless.

I like to think of it using the image of a “man overboard” who had fallen from the ship into shark infested waters and is floundering wildly to keep his head above water (just to keep himself fresh for the sharks). Here, Sandusky would seems to require that God MUST toss us a life preserver that lands right over our heads and around our necks and He pulls us into the ship to rescue us. He would see any contribution to that act as “not trusting in God”. So SD we would not permit us to grab the life preserver that landed 1 meter to our left and for us to hold on for dear life to be saved since “God must do it all” without our cooperation since anything we do has the effect of defeating and messing up God’s rescue (and breaking SDs private theology). It’s either this case or else SD would say that only those “truly saved” would be on the Good Ship Salvation" in the first place and if anyone did fall overboard they were not “truly saved” anyway and were stowaways.

James

 

[moondweller]

No, I believe in salvation by election (I’m Thomistic…see below).

I believe in salvation by grace through faith…"

God gives grace to forgive…

According to Divine revelation God judicially forgives the believer of all sins through the cross of Christ (Col. 2:13-14) to the end that He is just when He saves the sinner BY GRACE through FAITH (in Christ).

…renew, and the renewal shows up visibly on judgment day.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."The Matt. 25 judgment is one of separation (sheep from goats, believers from unbelievers), not salvation. Nor is it the final judgment which is the judgment of the “dead.” A judgment which has nothing to do with those made alive in Christ; those who do not come into judgment/condemnation but have “passed out of death into LIFE.”

 

[moondweller]

But what is left to our speculation is whether or not we have “saving faith” as opposed to a faith that should make us tremble-a faith referred to in Gods’ Word.

If your “faith” makes you tremble, then it’s not objective faith, a faith that rests on God’s Word:John 14:1-4 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also.”

 

[guanophore]

That’s not an imperative, nor does it instruct the believer to ask for forgiveness.

This is true. It is a conditional phrase construction. If…then…

confess…forgiven

 

[fhansen]

If your “faith” makes you tremble, then it’s not objective faith, a faith that rests on God’s Word:John 14:1-4 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also.”

What I’m getting at is that a Christian should not be so certain of their eternal destiny as to not be working it out with at least a measure of “fear and trembling”.