How are we saved?

[ralphy]

Ralphy,

Demanding everything be written in scriptures can sidetrack a discussion, as there are several things practiced by sola scripturist Protestants that are not in scriptures. Why is it some Protestants demand each and every aspect of the Catholic faith must be written in scriptures, yet accept their own non-scriptural beliefs as a matter of faith? Why the double standard?

I follow the bible because I will be judged in the end by the Word of God (the Bible). When everything else fails, read the instructions,right. Ralph

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I follow the bible because I will be judged in the end by the Word of God (the Bible). When everything else fails, read the instructions,right. Ralph

Ok, I tried to avoid it because it changes the topic of the thread, but please provide the scritpures that state the Bible is the sole authority, the scriptures that support private interpretation and the scriptures that exclude Church tradition/oral tradition from authority?

It’s a catch-22 question. We know the Bible doesn’t teach sola scriptura, private interpretation is acceptable and that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth. It does represent what I meant about the double-standard some Protestants hold the Catholic Church too…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Ok, I tried to avoid it because it changes the topic of the thread, but please provide the scritpures that state the Bible is the sole authority, the scriptures that support private interpretation and the scriptures that exclude Church tradition/oral tradition from authority?

It’s a catch-22 question. We know the Bible doesn’t teach sola scriptura, private interpretation is acceptable and it does teach that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth. It does represent what I meant about the double-standard some Protestants hold the Catholic Church too…

Quoted to make a correction in phrasing.

 

[James224]

Hi JJ59,

I wrote the following to someone who believed in Once Saved Always Saved. I think it will show you how we are saved:

The first thing that needs to be answered is how is one saved? We are saved by Grace alone as it says in Rom 3:24, “Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Salvation is a process that continues though life as shown in the following: Eph 2:8-9 says, “…for by grace you are saved…” Past tense. I Cor 1:18 says,“ To them that are (being) saved.” Present tense. Matt 10:22 says, “…persevere to the end, he shall be saved …” Future tense. Rom 10:9 says, “ Thou shalt be saved.” Future tense. Justification, therefore, is a process as shown in Rom 5:1 says, “ Being Justified therefore by Faith…” Past tense. Rom 3:24 says, “ Being Justified freely by his grace…” Present tense. Gal 2:17 says, “ But if while we seek to be Justified…” Future tense. Gal 5:4-5 says, “ …Hope of Justification…” Future tense. Paul didn’t judge himself to heaven or hell as shown in 1 Cor 4:4-5, “For I am not conscious to myself of anything. Yet am I NOT HEREBY JUSTIFIED: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 4:5. Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall every man have praise from God. “ I think we would agree that sanctification is a process so I won’t show those verses.

Since we are saved by grace alone and salvation is a process, not a one-time event, how do we tap into this grace?

Baptism

Baptism derives it’s power from the Cross as shown in John 19:34 which says, “But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side: and immediately there came out blood and WATER.” Baptism is the initial justification. Rom 6:1-4 says, “What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2. God forbid! For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? 6:3. Know you not that all we who are BAPTIZED in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? 6:4. For we are buried together with him by baptism into death: that, as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, SO WE ALSO MAY WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.” 1 Cor 6:11 says, “And such some of you were. But you are WASHED: but you are SANCTIFIED: but you are JUSTIFIED: in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.” Titus 3:5 refers to the “laver of regeneration”. “Laver” refers to the washing with water and “Regeneration” refers to life restored to the soul. When a baby is Baptized there is nothing it can do to merit this justification. This is the first grace. Remember: A baby is born with Original sin, that is, through the Sin of Adam & Eve. Jesus said in Luke 18:15-16, “And they brought unto him also INFANTS, that he might touch them. Which when the disciples saw, they rebuked them. But Jesus, calling them together, said: SUFFER THE CHILDREN TO COME TO ME and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.” Also, 1 Cor 1:16, “And I BAPTIZED also the HOUSEHOLD of Stephanus.” Households means infants too. Faith is present through the parents (Mark 2:3-5, Matt 8:8 – through the Faith of others). Once a baby reaches the age of reason or after an adult is Baptized, he becomes responsible for his sins.

Repentance

We must repent of our sins as shown in Acts 2:38, “…Do PENANCE (repent,fasting,almsgiving): and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins…”

Confession of sins

It is necessary to confess our sins and Paul wrote to CHRISTIANS who commit mortal sins: 1 Cor 6:9-10,: Gal 5:20-21, Rom 1:29-32, EPH 5:3-5. Mortal sin is defined in 1 John 5:16, “He that knoweth his brother to sin a SIN NOT UNTO DEATH, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. THERE IS A SIN UNTO DEATH. For that I say not that any man ask.” That is, a sin that spiritually brings death to the soul. 1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1:9. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 1:10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar: and his word is not in us.” (by the way, 1Jn 5:13-14 speaks of “confidence”. This is not the same as absolute “Assurance” – see 1 Cor 4:4-5 above)

Continued on next thread

 

[James224]

Hi JJ59,

This is continued from the last post:

Faith & Works

We must have Faith as shown in Matt 16:16 and elsewhere in scripture (Heb 11:6). It’s not Faith only and the only place in scripture where “only” is used with “Faith” is in James 2:24 which says, “Do you see that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY?” James 2:14 says, “What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall FAITH be able to SAVE him?” Works are not an option. Then James goes on to give examples (v15-16)– these are not “Works of the law”. If you quote verses which say only “Faith” and try to use that to prove “Faith alone”, how would you interpret Rom 8:24 which says, “For we are SAVED BY HOPE.”? Rom 2:6-7 says, “Who (God) will render to every man according to his WORKS. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honor and incorruption, ETERNAL LIFE.” These Works are done IN God’s grace. Eph 2:8-9 says, “ For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. 2:9. Not of works, that no man may glory.” This means these Works cannot save us because they are done “Apart” from God’s grace. The Works Paul (Rom 2:6-7 above) and James (ch 2) are talking about are done (IN) God’s grace. You can Fall from Grace as it says in Gal 5:4, “You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are FALLEN FROM GRACE.” Rom 11:22 says, “See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.” This does not mean backsliding a little bit – it says CUT OFF. The Book of Romans was written to CHRISTIANS!(Rom 1:6-8) So it’s not just for unbelievers. You can’t be CUT OFF unless you were in God’s grace.

God’s Plan (Baptism – Repentance – Confession – Faith – Works)

God’s Plan of Salvation is simple: Grace alone through Baptism, Penance & Confession, Faith & Works. We are also strengthened through the other sacraments: Eucharist & Confirmation. This is the minimum AND THE “NORMAL” means of salvation. Can God save us outside of this normal plan? Of course, and He does and there are examples (Acts 10, Acts 17:26-27) but this plan is the normal plan. What makes the Plan difficult is sin. Eph 6:11-12 says, “Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. 6:12. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.” We are in a battle EVERY DAY and by professing your Faith in Christ ONE TIME will NOT save you! I wonder how many Christians have walked the aisle and then committed terrible sins and think it’s ok because they’re going to heaven anyway. I think the Lord will say to them on Judgment Day: “I never knew you” (Matt 7:21,23). It is a life-long battle as the song “Onward Christian Soldiers” alludes to. Martin Luther invented this “Once saved always saved” because of what we call “Scrupulosity”. Scrupulosity is confusing concupiscence with sin. It’s sort of a legalistic approach to sin. Concupiscence is the temptation to sin but not sin itself. Luther would have a temptation and think he sinned so he thought he was sinning all the time. He then began looking for a way out and came up with this false doctrine. This was portrayed very well in the movie “Luther”.

May God bless,
James224

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, Randy, Randy,
I ask you, if you knew for certain that you were going to die tonight, would you put more faith in the somewhat UNCLEAR water baptism Scriptures above or a Holy God (Jesus) who came down from heaven and very CLEARLY said Mat 26:28 "“This is my BLOOD----which is poured out—for the forgiveness of sins.” Rev.1:5 Jesus, "freed us from our sins by His BLOOD " Heb 9:22 “Without the shedding of BLOOD there is no forgiveness of sins” 2Cor.5:21,Jesus was made sin, His righteousness was imputed into us. In the Old T. no one was baptized, animals BLOOD was sacrificed to temp cover sins, New T. Jesus our Lamb was sacrificed. With water baptism, nothing is sacrificed, it’s only a sign of repentance Think about it, let me know. Love in Christ Ed.

Ed, Ed, Ed-

You are insistent upon an either-or choice: EITHER we are trusting in the Blood OR we are relying on baptism. That is a false choice.

It is through the shed blood of Jesus that sins are forgiven. It is through baptism that I personally am incorporated into Christ.

If the shedding of Jesus’ blood were ALL that mattered, then every man, woman and child on the planet would be saved, and no one would ever go to hell. Jesus’ death upon the Christ opened the door, but it is through baptism that we enter into the life of Christ.

Now, I want your explanation of the following verse:

Acts 22:16
16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Please note that the account of Paul’s conversion in Acts 9 does not contain these words from the lips of Ananias; Paul emphasized the washing away of sin through baptism in his autobiographical account of his conversion YEARS after the actual baptism occured.

If Paul was so careful to connect baptism with the forgiveness of sins, why do you continue to deny that connection?

 

[Randy_Carson]

“Baptism of desire”! Where did you ever get that from, that’s new to me. Would you explain that to me please, or maybe scripture would do a better job of answering it, do you have any. Ralph

I said it’s time for YOU to do your homework. I’m not going to do it for you.

Just Google “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire”, and come back when you’re ready.

 

[Randy_Carson]

“THEY” means protestants and catholics. You were talking about building up the body with spiritual gifts. In Africa the protestant pentecostals are ministering to the catholics who are not trained for spiritual warfare.

Gee, how did Catholics ever manage to survive the last two millennia without Pentecostals around to teach them how to do battle against the principalities and powers of this world?

Sheesh.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I agree with everything you say but what puzzles me about the story in Africa is that the Protestants who take the bible out of context know how to do exorcisms and healings and the Catholics who have the fullness of truth are not doing it.

Catholics don’t do exorcisms? That’s not what Linda Blair would say…

 

[Randy_Carson]

I follow the bible because I will be judged in the end by the Word of God (the Bible). When everything else fails, read the instructions,right. Ralph

No, Ralph, you will not be judged by a book. You will be judged by the Word of God (Jesus). Since Jesus gave you a Church, one single, visible Church, it is incumbent upon you to make sure that you are in full communion with that Church and with the head of that Church, the pope.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Your very welcome Ed…
This is exactly the problem with those who follow the idea that the Bible holds all there is in the Teachings of our Savior as a “do it yourself” book of salvation. At some point one must consider and hopefully arrive at the realization that;

1. the Bible was taken from the Catholic Faith where its origin is a historic fact.
2. The writings, which had not been written with the foreknowledge and intent of one day becoming what we refer to as the Bible, had been later recognized by the True Church founded by Jesus and established by the very same Apostles as the inspired Word written by and on behalf of the Apostles.
3. The Apostles along with their successors and so on established this Church and all this is historically verifiable.
4. The individual texts were verified by the Catholic Church before acceptance into the compiled books of the Bible.
5. The Catholic Church established the Canon.
6. The Catholic Church utilized the later recognized and compiled Books (the Bible) as an equally critical part of the teachings of Jesus our Savior AND USED THEM AS SUCH but NEVER alonE.
7. The Apostles learned Christ’s teachings verbally as His disciples.
8. The Apostles verbally proclaimed His teachings to the masses (of people) and verbally passed those teachings on to their successors for hundreds of years before there was any written Word.
9. There was no Bible and any scriptural reference by the Apostles was in regard to the Septuagint as there was no written New Testament.
10. There was (and never will be) another True Christian Faith according to Scripture.

The Bible was taken from its source. Its purpose and proper use has been basically abused, distorted and in some cases altered by those who chose to take it to establish their own belief system different than that which had been taught by our Christ and His Church.

And I offer these verses once again for consideration;

Peter giving these instructions as the assigned authority over the establishment of the one Church founded by Jesus Himself. “I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,”

To deny there is but one body as spoken, which is in fact the Church (body) of Christ (the Head) with the hierarchy “…**And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, **13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ,” also as established and to deny the necessity of continuing and growing as a part of that Church, is to deny the teachings and authority clearly proclaimed.

4 “…one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

Thank you for response. I very respectfully disagree with some of your comments. The Bible, as we know it today, was assembled at various councils but other than just Catholic leaders where also present to decide which church circulated letters were to be included. With them, the people instructed one and another Rom15:14, Acts 17:11, 1 Cor 4:6, don’t go beyond what’s written, 2 Cor1:13 we don’t write you anything you cannot read or understand., Col.4:16 read and pass on the letters to the Laodiceans, 1 Thes 5;25 Paul charges them to have all brothers read the letter, 2 Thes 2:14 disobedience to his letter,2 Peter 3:1 second letter from Peter, 2 Peter 3: 15 Peter speaks of many of Paul’s letters to the people. Paul was very concerned about distortion coming into the churches as a result I’m sure, all that was necessary was written. Gal 1:8 If the apocrypha, as you say is necessary today, why wasn’t it back then? God Bless. P.S. God’s Holy Word ought not be called a "do it yourself " book.

 

[EdOsiecki]

I said it’s time for YOU to do your homework. I’m not going to do it for you.

Just Google “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire”, and come back when you’re ready.

This is Ed, Randy why are you so sarcastic in your reponses. Ralph asked you a simple question.Is that the kind of Christian love you have in your heart. The Bible says Let your light shine. Why would anyone want that kind of light? I think you owe Ralph an apology!

 

[COLOS]

Thank you for response. I very respectfully disagree with some of your comments. The Bible, as we know it today, was assembled at various councils but other than just Catholic leaders where also present to decide which church circulated letters were to be included. With them, the people instructed one and another Rom15:14, Acts 17:11, 1 Cor 4:6, don’t go beyond what’s written, 2 Cor1:13 we don’t write you anything you cannot read or understand., Col.4:16 read and pass on the letters to the Laodiceans, 1 Thes 5;25 Paul charges them to have all brothers read the letter, 2 Thes 2:14 disobedience to his letter,2 Peter 3:1 second letter from Peter, 2 Peter 3: 15 Peter speaks of many of Paul’s letters to the people. Paul was very concerned about distortion coming into the churches as a result I’m sure, all that was necessary was written. Gal 1:8 If the apocrypha, as you say is necessary today, why wasn’t it back then? God Bless.

Here’s some food for thought:

The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).

This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).

And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ” (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit “Christ’s word” to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion.

Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. “’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you” (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been “preached”—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be
supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority.

This is made clear when the apostle Paul tells Timothy: “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Here we see the first few links in the chain of apostolic tradition that has been passed down intact from the apostles to our own day. Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry.
Scripture and Tradition

P.S. God’s Holy Word ought not be called a "do it yourself " book.

Heh too true! A “doityourself” philosophy has resulted in 30,000+ different denominations all of which proclaim to have the truth.

 

[EdOsiecki]

“Baptism of desire”! Where did you ever get that from, that’s new to me. Would you explain that to me please, or maybe scripture would do a better job of answering it, do you have any. Ralph

Hi Ralphy, This is Ed check out 324 Don’t let anyone intimidate you. Have a nice day.

 

[Palm_Tree]

Hi everyone.

I was wondering: How are we saved?

I mean, I consider the Catholic Church to be authoritative, but I can’t seem to get a straight answer when it comes to salvation. (In contrast, Protestants have a straight answer, “Believe in Jesus”.) I even checked the CCC and it made zero sense. Can someone please give me a short, simple answer to the question? Specifically:

i) I’ve heard it been said “Grace alone”. If so, how do we receive that grace?

ii) Where is this in the Bible?

iii) What of the verses like “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31) and “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)? How do they fit into the Church’s teaching?

Thanks!!!

(Oh, and by the way, I’m not trying to be pesky, I’m honestly looking for answers. Thanks!)

The closest thing I’ve heard to a “short, simple answer” to how we are saved is that God expects us to sincerely keep trying, and keep trying, and keep trying to develop in Christian holiness.

We have the Bible.

We have the Church (which is loyal to the Bible).

In the Catechism, the Church gives an outline divided into four parts:

1. Faith
2. Sacraments
3. Morality (the Christian life)
4. Prayer

God wants us to keep trying and keep trying and keep trying to understand those concepts and the put those concepts into fruition.

You also have a wide variety of other stuff to help you out: the example of the Saints, great Christian books (e.g. the Imitation of Christ, etc), great Christian thinkers (e.g. Augustine, Aquinas), retreats, priests, deacons, other more mature Christians that are closer to doing God’s will than you are, etc.

But in the end, God is going to judge us not on if we achieved one little thing or one little goal, God is going to judge us on whether we kept trying and trying and trying to understand the concepts of Christianity and to put those concepts into fruition.

 

[ron77nyc]

Gee, how did Catholics ever manage to survive the last two millennia without Pentecostals around to teach them how to do battle against the principalities and powers of this world?

Sheesh.

Catholics don’t do exorcisms? That’s not what Linda Blair would say…

This is from post #275. Maybe you haven’t read it.

Here is a recent story about Protestant Pentecostals ministering to Catholics. Would you say they are not one body?
ncronline.org/news/vatican/condemned-pope-witchcraft-reality-africa
Condemned by pope, witchcraft a reality in Africa
African converts often keep one foot in traditional spirituality
Mar. 21, 2009
By JOHN ALLEN JR., NCR Staff

In Angola yesterday, Benedict XVI stressed social issues readily familiar to Western audiences, such as poverty, war, and human rights. Today, however, the pope turned to another burning concern across much of Africa, albeit one that can seem exotic to foreign ears: Witchcraft.
Many Africans, the pope said, “are living in fear of spirits, of malign and threatening powers. In their bewilderment, they end up even condemning street children and the elderly as alleged sorcerers.”
Benedict called upon Catholics to “to proclaim that Christ has triumphed over death and all those occult powers.”
Even after converting to Christianity, many Africans keep one foot in this cluster of beliefs and practices rooted in traditional African spirituality.
In February 2007, the Catholic University of East Africa in Nairobi, Kenya, held a three-day symposium on witchcraft. Experts warned that witchcraft is “destroying” the Catholic Church in Africa, in part because skeptical, Western-educated clergy don’t take the beliefs behind it seriously.
“It is important for the Church to understand the fears of the people, and not to attribute them to superstition,” said Michael Katola, a lecturer in pastoral theology. “Witchcraft is a reality; it is not a superstition. Many communities know these powers exist.”
Katola warned that inadequate pastoral responses are driving some Africans into Pentecostalism.
“Many of our Christians seek deliverance, healing and exorcism from other denominations because priests do not realize they have redemptive powers,” he said. “If we don’t believe in the existence of witchcraft as Satanism, then we cannot deal with it.”
Sr. Bibiana Munini Ngundo said that the Catholic Church has not paid sufficient attention to “integral healing,” leading people to put their trust in diviners and magicians. Fr. Clement Majawa of Malawi listed 14 categories of witchcraft practiced in Africa, and argued that the Church’s denial “only escalates the problem.”
“Since Christ in the gospels encountered the devil, it is proper for Christians to accept the reality of witchcraft,” Majawa said.
In his remarks today, Benedict XVI alluded to one reason why the church has sometimes been reluctant to challenge witchcraft: an exaggerated “live and let live” spirit of tolerance.
“Someone may object: ‘Why not leave them in peace? They have their truth, and we have ours,’” the pope said.
In the end, Benedict said, such timidity does no one any favors.
“If we are convinced that, without Christ, life lacks something, that something real – indeed, the most real thing of all – is missing, we must also be convinced that we do no injustice to anyone if we present Christ to them,” the pope said. “Indeed, we must do this. It is our duty to offer everyone this possibility of attaining eternal life.”

 

[SHW]

Thank you for response. I very respectfully disagree with some of your comments. The Bible, as we know it today, was assembled at various councils but other than just Catholic leaders where also present to decide which church circulated letters were to be included. With them, the people instructed one and another Rom15:14, Acts 17:11, 1 Cor 4:6, don’t go beyond what’s written, 2 Cor1:13 we don’t write you anything you cannot read or understand., Col.4:16 read and pass on the letters to the Laodiceans, 1 Thes 5;25 Paul charges them to have all brothers read the letter, 2 Thes 2:14 disobedience to his letter,2 Peter 3:1 second letter from Peter, 2 Peter 3: 15 Peter speaks of many of Paul’s letters to the people. Paul was very concerned about distortion coming into the churches as a result I’m sure, all that was necessary was written. Gal 1:8 If the apocrypha, as you say is necessary today, why wasn’t it back then? God Bless. P.S. God’s Holy Word ought not be called a "do it yourself " book.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word/oral teaching or our epistle/letter.” “Scripture Alone” disproved by Scripture alone.

John 21:25 “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even** the world itself could not contain the books that would be written**. Amen.”

1 Timothy 3:14-15 “These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the** house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth**.”

The Church is the pillar/support and ground/foundation of the Truth. It speaks for Jesus with His authority.

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you (Apostles & Disciples) hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

Matthew 18:17 “And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.”

The Church is the authority. The Church authorized the Scriptures. The Church has the responsibility and authority to interpret the inerrant written word of God infallibly. This authority is not given to individuals.

2 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,”

2 Peter 3:15-17 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all** his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures**. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;”

Look to the Church that Jesus founded 2000 years ago for salvation. Jesus founded a Church in order to make disciples of all nations. Matthew 28:18-20

The Apocrypha/deuterocanonical books were always part of the Septuagint which was put into use by the Greek-speaking Jews in about 250 B.C. Paul took most of his Old Testament quotations from it.

 

[Canto]

The Bible, as we know it today, was assembled at various councils

And these Councils were…?

but other than just Catholic leaders where also present to decide which church circulated letters were to be included.

And these people were…?

With them, the people instructed one and another Rom15:14,

Paul wrote and spoke and not everything he spoke would have been written

Acts 17:11,

The Old Testament

1 Cor 4:6, don’t go beyond what’s written, 2 Cor1:13 we don’t write you anything you cannot read or understand., Col.4:16 read and pass on the letters to the Laodiceans,

Notice it would have been the Bishop/Presbyter who would read the epistle and than teach. They didn’t give everyone a copy to read and make up their own private interpretation.

1 Thes 5;25 Paul charges them to have all brothers read the letter,

1 Thes 5:25 NAB Brothers, pray for us / You mean v27 were Paul asks the epistle to be read to the people?

2 Thes 2:14 disobedience to his letter,

2 Thes 2:14 NAB To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gospel: Latin evangelium

2 Peter 3:1 second letter from Peter,

the next verse… to recall the words previously **spoken **

2 Peter 3: 15 Peter speaks of many of Paul’s letters to the people. Paul was very concerned about distortion coming into the churches as a result I’m sure, all that was necessary was written.

All that was necessary - all that we need for salvation is in the scriptures I believe it has been said but as this thread has show there is much disagreement in interpreting the scriptures. I choose to side with the pillar and foundation of truth.

Gal 1:8 If the apocrypha, as you say is necessary today, why wasn’t it back then? God Bless. P.S. God’s Holy Word ought not be called a "do it yourself " book.

The apocrypha is not necessary.
If you mean the deutrocanon then yes, it is part of the word of God.

The council of Rome (382 AD) produced the Bible contents page we have today ~ Pope Damascus
The same canon was reaffirmed at the council of Hippo (393 AD)
-The canon was also reaffirmed at the council of Carthage (397) and…
-The council of Carthage (419)
-The council of Nicaea II (787)
-The council of Florence (1441)
-The council of Trent (1545-1563)
-Vatican council I (1869-1870)
-Vatican council II (1962-1965) for example

Books were included that did not contradict oral tradition.

-The Didache (teaching of the apostles) a first century Christian document quotes them - c70 AD
-Clement I of Rome quoted from them for example her calls Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) “Scripture” (The Instructor, I:8)
-Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Origen and Cyprian for example all quote from Baruch, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Maccabees (I and II) and Daniel ‘additions’ for example in their writings

• Hippolytus cites the book of Baruch as Scripture (Against the Noetus, 2)
• Origen defended the canonicity of Susanna [Daniel 13], Bel and the Dragon [Daniel 14], the prayers of Azarias [Daniel 3] and the hymn of praise of the three youths in the fiery furnace [Daniel 3] in his Epistle to Julius Africanus around the year 254.
  -In the year 248 A.D., Origen cited the book of Sirach 21:28 as Scripture. (Against Celsus,7:12)
  St. Cyprian in 252-258 A.D., cites the books of Tobit (Treatise 4,32), Sirach (Treatise 7,9), and the story of the three youths in Daniel 3:37-43 (Testimonies, 20. See also Treatise 4,8.), as Scripture several times in his writings.

St Paul said tradition was written and oral not just written.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Here’s some food for thought:

Heh too true! A “doityourself” philosophy has resulted in 30,000+ different denominations all of which proclaim to have the truth.

This is Ed, when I joined this forum, I thought it was a Chritian organization ? Am I wrong? I see more sarcasm here than I did before I got saved in a saloon among the drunks. About the 30,000 denominations, you may be wrong. At the last count there were 29,999. John 6:66 (very apropriate number at that) " From this time many of his (Jesus) disciples turned back and no longer followed him. Them Jesus asked the twelve, “You do not want to leave too, do you”? Did you ever stop to think that maybe there is only ONE of you because if you disagreed with the officials, Inquistion! then it got pretty hot at the stake. A far cry from what Jesus taught! Think about it!

 

[Canto]

This is Ed, when I joined this forum, I thought it was a Chritian organization ? Am I wrong? I see more sarcasm here than I did before I got saved in a saloon among the drunks.

Does the sacrasm come from only the Catholic side?

About the 30,000 denominations, you may be wrong. At the last count there were 29,999. John 6:66 (very apropriate number at that) " From this time many of his (Jesus) disciples turned back and no longer followed him. Them Jesus asked the twelve, “You do not want to leave too, do you”?

They walked no longer with Him becuase they did not believe in the Eucharist.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe there is only ONE of you because if you disagreed with the officials, Inquistion! then it got pretty hot at the stake. A far cry from what Jesus taught! Think about it!

Inquisition. A little bit of sarcasm
Nice to know non Catholics never burnt anyone at a stake…oh wait…