How are we saved?

[PJM]

=golfjack;5145642]Some of you are astonishing to me. Does Jesus come three times? No. How does He come for His Church in the rapture? He comes to meet us in the air, descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. Jesus is in the clouds, in the air **( 1 Thess. 4:16-17). **For the critics, where does it say He touches ground?:banghead:

 Peace,  Golfjack

Dear Brother Jack,

Are you aware that America is the only country on planet earth that has a large population that holds this belief? [a third comming is NOT anywhere in the bible].

Are you aware that is is a relatively recent understanding, begaining in the late 1800’s?

Are you aware that this position is anti-biblical?

In an earlier post on this string I gave evidence that there are at least two very specific verses that Jesus proclaims that we will not know the time or the day.

If we look at your passage, begaining with verse 15, not simply 16 and 17, here is what we find.

1 Tess. 4:15 "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who **have fallen asleep./**U] 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord

1. Mt. 24: 21-23 “21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 and if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.” Christ is telling us the Elect will be here for The Tribulation!

2. Common Sense Question: If the “saved” are raptured before the Tribulation, what difference would the Tribulation make? No difference! If the Elect are already in Heaven, why the Tribulation?

3. Mt. 24: 11-13 “11 and many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved. 14 and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. See the Elect are still on planet earth.

**7. In 1848 Somehow or another the Jews have once again been gathered in Israel so the “Rapture is once again eminent.” Mt. 4: 17 “**From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” People have so brought into this error, that they willingly accept a “word” spoken by Jesus thousands of years ago as being the current “promise” of God!

1. The word “rapture” actually means in Greek: that a king or high dignitary is coming.” The “rapture of today” refers to the people going out to meet the king (as at the story of the wedding feast) and to escort the king to the wedding. NOTE: the king does not change direction, the king simply joins the people who have come out to meet and escort him, and continues in the same direction from which he is coming.
2. 1 Cor.15: 50-58 50 “I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable**,(this happens B4 we die) ** and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor
   is not in vain.”
3. Mt. 24: “21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 and if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 for false Christ’s and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
4. **We will not know the day of reckoning! Mt. 24:38 **For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.”

Love and prayers friend,

 

[SHW]

The Church is the People!!! Why is that so hard for you to understand? And my beliefs are the Bible. You don’t have any power to tell me I can’t have a personal relationship with Jesus outside the Church. The Church Is the People.

Hello,

I do not doubt that you are saved. And I have no doubt that you have a personal relationship with God. God meets people where they are because He desires that all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

You and your loved ones have my sincerest sympathy for the pain and suffering that you have gone through at the hands of wicked people.

I am telling you that your understanding is incorrect as to what “church” means.

The proper meaning of “Church” is not a “group of ‘individuals’ who pick up a Bible and interpret it for themselves and who then decide that ‘they’ are the ‘Church’ and that the Bible is their sole ‘rule’ of faith.”

The Church is a society founded by Jesus Christ. Every society is hierarchical in nature. The Church has as its head, Jesus Christ. Next is the pope (papa) and the bishops (teaching magisterium). Then other elders/priests and deacons. (1 Timothy 4:14, Philippians 1:1, Titus 1:5) Lay persons make up the rest of the society.
**
The Church cannot error in matters of faith and morals because it has Jesus as its head. **However, this does not mean that individual members of His Church do not sin and that they do not cause scandal. They can and do, as is witnessed by the sexual abuse scandal. But it is not the Church who sinned. It is the individuals who claim to belong to this Church who sin. (Some persons are automatically excommunicated because of committing certain sins.)
**
Jesus prevents His Church from teaching error regarding faith and morals. **(Matthew 16:18-19) He promises to be with His one Church until He returns. (Matthew 28:19-20, John 16:13) It is impossible for His one Church to teach error. If it teaches error, then Jesus is a liar! And we know that the Holy Spirit cannot lie so His Church cannot teach error. (1 John 5:6)

The Church is the support and foundation of the truth of Jesus’ gospel:
1 Timothy 3:15 “but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (Matthew 18:17)

The Church authorizes Scripture, using its authority given to it by God (Matthew 28:18-20), to be used as a tool to help with its mission of salvation:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Jesus’ one Church is built upon Peter and upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:19-20), but Peter (and his successors) is the chief steward of Jesus’ Church. The Church is structured as a hierarchy just as heaven and all creation are also structured.

Jesus gave the “keys of the kingdom” to Peter alone. This is a chief stewardship position over all other stewards (apostles). See Isaiah 22 for background information on this position. Isaiah 22:22 “The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; So he shall open, and no one shall shut; And he shall shut, and no one shall open.”

Compare this to Jesus choosing Peter as head of His Church, because the Father chose Peter first, by giving him the correct answer to Jesus’ question:

Matthew 16:15-19 "He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Peter is chosen specifically by the Father to be His Son’s Church’s chief leader/steward. No other person receives the keys of the kingdom because only one person at a time can have this top position of chief steward.

Simon’s confession of faith is why Jesus chose him to be the “rock” in imitation of Himself in order to represent Him on earth. And this is why Simon’s name is changed to Cephas “Rock” because Jesus chose to build His Church upon Cephas/Peter. It is not Simon Peter’s confession of faith that is the rock, it is Peter who is the rock. The sentence structure proves this point in the Greek language. In Aramaic, Cephas means “the rock.”

Jesus states that His Church, not individuals, speaks for Him:

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.

God appoints all authority on earth:

Romans 13:1-2 “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

The pope and magisterium are the rulers over the other members of His Church:

Hebrews 13:7 " Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct."

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

Hebrews 13:24 “Greet all those who rule over you, and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.”

They have God’s authority on earth concerning faith and morals:

2 Corinthians 10:8 “For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed—”

2 Corinthians 13:10 “Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.”

Titus 2:15 “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”

The Church brings the sacraments of Jesus to His people:

Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19** Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you**; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”

Acts 8:18 “And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,”

1 Corinthians 11:23-25 "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

James 5:14 “Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders (priests) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.”

If we desire truth, then we must learn from those who can trace their teaching back to the apostles. The faith is handed down throughout the ages through His one Church:

2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

As you can see, your definition of Church is not one that fits the Biblical model.

All who call on the Name of the Lord are saved. If you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart that God raised Jesus from the Dead you will be saved.

Yes, this is true. However, Scripture also states many other things that are necessary in order to inherit eternal life. I will post a few of them:

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Matthew 7:20-23 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

Ephesians 5:3-7 “But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

I will continue to obey the gospel of Jesus which includes to obey the rulers of Jesus’ Church on earth.

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8** in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel** of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

I am not saying that persons who do not know the truth, through no fault of their own, cannot be saved. This is contrary to Catholic doctrine. These persons can be saved.

Pax,
SHW

 

[golfjack]

My friend, I am not hear to argue about the rapture with you. But, I will make one point. Who are the elect during the tribulation? The Jews of course, because God chose them. And, by the way, your church has a reputation of killing Jews. Shame, Shame. I am sorry for my little display of anger, but I do have a heart for the Jews.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[golfjack]

Denilles, AMEN AND AMEN BROTHER.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[PJM]

=golfjack;5148560]My friend, I am not hear to argue about the rapture with you. But, I will make one point. Who are the elect during the tribulation? The Jews of course, because God chose them. And, by the way, your church has a reputation of killing Jews. Shame, Shame. I am sorry for my little display of anger, but I do have a heart for the Jews.

   Peace,   Golfjack

Dear friend in Christ,

What the heck church are you talking about…“killing Jews?”

Would it not be prudent to support these kind of claims with even a shred of evidence:blush:

Love and prayers,

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by denwiles
The Church is the People!!! Why is that so hard for you to understand? And my beliefs are the Bible. You don’t have any power to tell me I can’t have a personal relationship with Jesus outside the Church. The Church Is the People.

Is that right?

Or is it just partly right?

If we are going to be emphatic, might it not also be wise and prudent to share the entire truth?

The church is many things:

A set of dogma’s, doctrines, and laws based on the Bible.

The Church is the seat of Moral and Theological Governance by our Pope and the Ordinary Magisterium.

The “church” is also a building…see #1181 and #2691

And yes, the church is made up of her people.

But friend, Mother Church is all of these, not simply any single component.

837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

2691 The church, the house of God, is the proper place for the liturgical prayer of the parish community. It is also the privileged place for adoration of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. The choice of a favorable place is not a matter of indifference for true prayer.

• For personal prayer, this can be a “prayer corner” with the Sacred Scriptures and icons, in order to be there, in secret, before our Father. In a Christian family, this kind of little oratory fosters prayer in common.
• In regions where monasteries exist, the vocation of these communities is to further the participation of the faithful in the Liturgy of the Hours and to provide necessary solitude for more intense personal prayer.
• Pilgrimages evoke our earthly journey toward heaven and are traditionally very special occasions for renewal in prayer. For pilgrims seeking living water, shrines are special places for living the forms of Christian prayer “in Church.”

1181 A church, “a house of prayer in which the Eucharist is celebrated and reserved, where the faithful assemble, and where is worshipped the presence of the Son of God our Savior, offered for us on the sacrificial altar for the help and consolation of the faithful - this house ought to be in good taste and a worthy place for prayer and sacred ceremonial.” In this “house of God” the truth and the harmony of the signs that make it up should show Christ to be present and active in this place.

1186 Finally, the church has an eschatological significance. To enter into the house of God, we must cross a threshold, which symbolizes passing from the world wounded by sin to the world of the new Life to which all men are called. The visible church is a symbol of the Father’s house toward which the People of God is journeying and where the Father “will wipe every tear from their eyes.” Also for this reason, the Church is the house of all God’s children, open and welcoming.

Love and prayers,

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No He came to build His Church (the People) Matthew 16:18 you are Peter (Greek: Little Rock) and on this Big Rock I will build my People.

The Greek language, like the Spanish language, has gender nouns. The Spanish use La for the feminine sense and El for the masculine sense. For example, el gato is used for a male cat. La gata is used for a female cat.

Yes, Matthew used the Greek term for “little rock”. Why was this? Could it have been the Greek word for little rock was the masculine word for rock? Could it have been that the Greek word for “big rock” was feminine? Would that have been acceptable, to refer to Simon in the feminine sense, considering the times, and culture, the scriptures were written? Would it have been a moot point to decide whether Christ meant little rock or big rock since He spoke Aramaic, where there is only one word for rock and that is Kephas?

Surely, you’re not questioning the primacy of Peter?

I am copying and pasting some information on the renaming of Simon below. It’s well worth the read and consideration of all.

The incident in Matthew took place at Caesarea Philippi, so named by Herod Philip. However, it was originally Panion, the city of Pan…dedicated to the Greek god Pan. The mountain where Christ was transfigured was above the spot where there remains, to this day, a site honoring Pan, who was, at that time, considered by pagans to be the “great god” who ruled the world. Pan’s essence was sexual and leaned toward depravity, i.e., to Christians, it represents the power of evil. (Remember that with the exchange immediately following Christ’s proclamation!) The altar to Pan was just below the city that represented the evil, and was hidden in the cliffs.

Why this spot? Why, of all the places to which Jesus journeyed, would he choose (and don’t think it wasn’t chosen!) a place so antithetical to the Kingdom of God? Obviously, because Christ, through the Church He was then establishing, is the antithesis to everything which kept men from the Kingdom. And even the gates of hell (a site so named in a niche in the same mountain, which some claim to be the “abyss”) will not prevail over that Kingdom!

But the Kingdom is to be established in the “now” of time, in order for man to live a life of genuine holiness through which he may enter into the eternal Kingdom. Hence, a kingdom needs a King – the King of Kings. However, when the King, established by God through David, is absent from the physical kingdom, it cannot be left unattended. Hence, the keeper of the keys, the “prime minister” or “vicar”, is charged with the full authority of the king over all his lands, peoples, and possessions. He can make law or repeal it. He can make any decisions the King would make. And he is responsible to the King for every action he takes.

The “short” form of my position on Matthew 16:

1. The “petros/petra” issue would not have occurred, since Jesus was not speaking Greek, but Aramaic, wherein there is ONE word form: Kepha.

1. A change in name in Scripture ALWAYS came with a significant change in stature and responsibility. It wasn’t a “whim” of Christ’s to change Simon’s name to Peter. And we know that change was real, as it’s referred to throughout the NT. What is the significance of the name change, if not to designate Peter as the primate over all the followers of Christ? Note that whenever a name change was made in the OT, there was an explanation for it – Abram becomes Abraham because God will make of him a great nation. Jacob becomes Israel because he contended and had power with God and with men and prevailed. Likewise, Simon becomes Peter because upon his strength in faith the sacred community of the faithful, the Church, would be founded.

1. The keeper of the keys is not simply noted in Isaiah. 1Chron 9 details the specifics of the keys. The person who was designated as the keeper of the keys was the “right hand man” of the king. He literally sat at the right hand of the king’s throne.

1. The throne of David was considered by Jews to be the throne of God. (Ref. 1Chron 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

1. The keeper of the keys is, therefore, the Lord’s vicar, who occupies the earthly throne until Christ returns.

Just one more note about Pan.

Pan (Greek Πάν, genitive Πανός), in Greek religion and mythology, is the companion of the nymphs,[1] god of shepherds and flocks.

Christ had a purpose behind all His actions, as well as His words.

 

[golfjack]

PJM, It’;s been well documented that the early church probably starting Pope Jerome and others persecuted the Jews, and so much so, that your last Pope apoligized for it in Jersualem.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

PJM, It’;s been well documented that the early church probably starting Pope Jerome and others persecuted the Jews, and so much so, that your last Pope apoligized for it in Jersualem.

       Peace,   Golfjack

Provide sources please.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

PJM, It’;s been well documented that the early church probably starting Pope Jerome and others persecuted the Jews, and so much so, that your last Pope apoligized for it in Jersualem.

       Peace,   Golfjack

Why is it, when Catholics say the early Church was Catholic, you say the early Church was a “body of believers”, and when you want to try and make someone believe the early Church persecuted a group of people, it’s no longer a “body of believers”?

 

[Church_Militant]

These articles from my blog may help some.
How Is A Catholic Saved?
Baptism~ Necessary or Not?
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

I think the last one is probably the best summation of my opinion based upon the Word of God.

 

[Canto]

Matthew 16:18 you are Peter (Greek: Little Rock) and on this Big Rock I will build my People.

Petros and Petra in Koine Greek (the NT Greek) both mean rock.
Petra (feminine) was more common but as it is becoming Simon’s name the masculine form (less common) was used. It was than followed by Petra to illustrate that Simon really is the rock on which the Church would be built. So Petros/Peter literally translates as Rock.

Mark 3:17And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder.

Do you ever hear them called Boanerges in the scripture?
Yet Paul most always calls Simon, Cephas (Greek transliteration of Kepha).

Kepha is Aramaic (the language Christ spoke) and it means rock.
“You shall be called Cephas [said Jesus] which means rock” John 1:42

 

[RosaryFan]

Hi everyone.

I was wondering: How are we saved?

I mean, I consider the Catholic Church to be authoritative, but I can’t seem to get a straight answer when it comes to salvation. (In contrast, Protestants have a straight answer, “Believe in Jesus”.) I even checked the CCC and it made zero sense. Can someone please give me a short, simple answer to the question? Specifically:

i) I’ve heard it been said “Grace alone”. If so, how do we receive that grace?

ii) Where is this in the Bible?

iii) What of the verses like “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31) and “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)? How do they fit into the Church’s teaching?

Thanks!!!

(Oh, and by the way, I’m not trying to be pesky, I’m honestly looking for answers. Thanks!)

Pray a lot. Prayer is your relationship with God. Have a good relationship with God. Try your hardest not to sin. Every decision you make, no matter how minor, should be based on what Jesus would do. Every act you perform, no matter how trivial, should be to please Jesus.

Simply believing in Jesus is only the beginning. If you believe in Jesus, then the next natural step would be a desire to love Him and please Him, which would lead to living your life as I’ve stated above. You cannot just “believe” in Jesus and go through life sinning and turning your back on Him. A true and honest “belief” in our Lord would hopefully cause you to live a good Christian life. Those who merely believe in Jesus’ existence without regard for His message of salvation cannot be saved because they turn their backs on Him.

Make use of the sacraments often, especially the Holy Eucharist and reconciliation. The sacraments are the tools with which salvation is achieved. Jesus came and left us with these 7 wonderful tools. Use them as often as you can. The more you use the proper tools for any job, the easier the job is. You cannot have salvation without Jesus. And for Catholics, this means use of the sacraments. That is how Jesus comes to us - through the sacraments. The sacraments are key.

That’s my short answer.

 

[CSUNGerrie]

How are we saved?
Just say Yes, to Jesus Christ. Just say yes, means you put your faith in his holy spirit to enter your life and enrich it with charity for your fellow man (works).

As an example, take the story of Mary and Martha. Martha was doing all kinds of things but in the end, all that was needful was to just say Yes and sit at Jesus feet.

I forget who said that if you look into your own heart you will realize that the only reason your not a saint is because you dont really want to be. Just say Yes, is a powerful move.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Again, it seems when you guys see baptism, you see to think it means water baptism. Mark 16 talks about believing first, which salvation is obtained by faith. Then we should get water baptized, but it doesn’t mean we are not saved. It is an outward expession of our faith. Acts 2 is talking about being baptized in the family of Jesus. Notice, it doesn’t say in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The other verses you gave me are also used symbolically. To me, it is ridiculous to think that water can save us. I serve a God who is not silly, but a God who is Able.

Peace, Golfjack

Born Again Through Water Baptism
By Stephen Ray
blog.catholic-convert.com/?p=238

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1) The first creation came from the the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters and from the water emerged land and man and God’s first creation (Gen 1:1-2).

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2) A new humanity was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Peter said this represents baptism which “now saves us” (1 Peter 3:18-21).

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3) The nation of Israel was created through the WATER of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead — my oh my, again we have water and Spirit (Ex 14).

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4) Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ez 36:25). Born again, I suspect.

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5) Then Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit (Mt 3:16; Jn 1:29).

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**6) **Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again, or from above which is accomplished through “WATER and the SPIRIT.“

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7) When Jesus finished these words what was the first thing he did? He went down and baptized people in the Jordan with his disciples (Jn 4:1-2).

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8) At the first Holy Ghost Gospel Revival meeting Peter stood up at Pentecost and said, “Repent, and be baptized (WATER) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SPIRIT“ (Acts 2:38).

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9) Peter also says “Baptism now saves you“ (1 Pet 3:18), and Paul is told “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16), and Paul writes that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration (WATER) and renewal in the Holy SPIRIT“ (Titus 3:5).

%between%Too bad many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists refuse to see it but the Bible is pretty clear about new birth through the sacrament of baptism. Jesus is not ambiguous in this matter and he is alluding quite clearly to new beginnings in the Old Testament. The Early Church is also very clear and so is the teaching of the Catholic Church today.

St. Augustine said, “Who is so wicked as to want to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaven by prohibiting their being baptized and born again in Christ?”

When someone asks me “Have you been born again?“ I simply answer “Absolutely, but I’ve been born again the Bible Way!“

 

[Randy_Carson]

Po 18, Why don’t we get to the point? When I was 37, and a Catholic, I got down on my knees, asked, how do I stay out of hell. I remember saying I can’t do all things the Church tells me to do. I told Him I go to confession on Sat. and by the middle of the next week, I am in the same condition of what you guys call mortal sin. I said please help me. Well, it wasn’t too long that a Baptist friend of mine handed me a tract, which I read, and finally by faith accepted and trusted that Jesus did it all for me.

I am very passionate about telling people about Jesus. I did leave the Catholic church for many reasons. In 37 years of being a Catholic, the only main thing I learned was that God exists. I learned about a bunch of religious things from the Catholic Church, like making the sign of the cross, praying memorized prayers, genuflicting, kneeling, going to Mass, Confession, communion, the sacraments and many other things that have nothing to do with salvation.

I just thought I would tell you where I am coming from. I know there are many saved Catholics, and hope to see you after the rapture. But, there are many people sitting in church pews from all over the Christian world that are not saved. I wish you Catholic’s the best in your Ministries. God bless you.

Peace, Golfjack

Jack-

I’m curious to know whether you have been any less likely to fall into that mortal sin after reading that tract than you were before. Or are you still committing that same sin and simply not feeling guilty any more?

If you did not really know your faith before, maybe you should take a serious look before assuming that you left the Church for something better.

Jesus founded one church. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. No other Church - yours included - existed when Jesus said that Peter was the rock upon which He would build His Church. The Catholic Church is that Church.

Maybe its time to take a second look.

 

[Randy_Carson]

He is exactly right!!! Pope John Paul II was the greatest Pope who ever lived in my opinion. And weather you believe it or not He did believe in the rapture as many Catholics do. He also singed the Agreement with the Luther Church in 1994 that Martin Luther was right and salvation is a gift apart from works, as I told you in an earlier post. I have been dealing with Protestant and Catholic fights my whole life, sad to say. Thats way I claim to only be a Christian and not a Catholic even though Our Lady of Sorrows is where I serve and worship. And Brother Catholics are Just as divided, you just truly hate Protestants and one day before the Lord that will be your down fall. We must love all, even our enemies. Rapture or no Rapture when you die all that matters is that you truly know, and the Lord truly knows you. You just had to say “Rapture, wheres that in the Bible?” Why??? Hopefully not to start a fight. The brother even if He is not going to the Catholic Institution, I say that because we are the church. Hello!! If all the people left you only have empty buildings. He is still serving the Lord and Loves his Catholic Brothers and Sisters. Oh my Goodness I hate to break it to everone, but Jesus and Mary aren’t Catholic. God Truly Bless you and remember Jesus is for all, even those pesky Protestants you hate.

Dennis-

It is incorrect to say that the Joint Declaration (or the pope) stated that Luther was right. The LCMS rejected the JDDJ because they felt that it conceded too much to the Catholic Church. You can’t have it both ways.

Now, I’m sorry that you feel that some here hate Protestants. This is also incorrect. We hate falsehood and anything that draws people away from the fullness of the gospel which can ONLY be found in the Catholic Church which Jesus founded.

Are Jesus and Mary Catholic? Jesus is the head, and He only has one body. That body is the Catholic Church.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Randy_Carson]

True the Bible says to be baptized. Notice a very important thing though. Believe and Baptized; it goes hand and hand. The Baptism I believe in is not the One you believe in. I was baptized as a baby. But then when I totally gave my life to Jesus, I was baptized again. Why??? I believed in the Lord and my proof or the manifestation of that belief was when I was baptized. True belief is not just an intelligent thought, James saying, even the Demons believe and shudder, but proven by action. This is belief and baptism. A baby doesn’t believe. The point is simple Jesus either did it all or not at all. I obey out of Love; my works are out of Love. Look The Chaplet of Divine Mercy prayer "says when this prayer is said Jesus will come to the person dying and show mercy and not Judgment. It don’t matter who or what the Person is. You can’t say we got to do this or that to be saved and then believe a Prayer of faith can save a person dying. It’s either one way or the other. Remember when Jesus said call no man teacher. He wasn’t condemning the title. He was saying I am you Teacher. We teach what Jesus taught, because He is the Teacher. Mormons went astray because they followed a man; they made Joseph Smith their teacher instead of Jesus. We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit; we literally carry the Presence of God. I implore you to please listen to The Holy Spirit and know His voice. He speaks to your Heart and not your head. God Bless

Dennis-

If you are Catholic, then you have some strange ideas about what the Catholic Church teaches. More importantly, here is what the Bible teaches:

Ephesians 4:4-6
4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Sorry, your second baptism may have made you feel good, but in terms of spiritual regeneration, it meant nothing. There is ONE baptism. Not two.

As for the Holy Spirit speaking to our hearts, did God not make our reason, too?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Please Stop!!! Where is purgatory found in the Bible? I agree the Bible doesn’t say “my beloved one day the rapture cometh.” LOL. Neither does it say "When you die thou shalt go to Purgatory. Paul said to avoid these endless arguments. So now look what I did, I sinned and must go and repent. God Bless

The Doctrine of Purgatory Proved from Scripture

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2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

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Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

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Matthew 12:32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come**.**

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Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Obviously, there is no sin to forgive in heaven, and sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and judgment is permanent. Therefore, the “world to come” where sin can still be forgiven must be a third, distinct place.

Luke 12:42-48
The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

Notice that there are not two but three categories of servants in this parable: 1) the “wise and faithful manager” who is rewarded (heaven); 2) the unfaithful servant who knows his master’s will but does not do it and who is “cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers (hell); and 3) the one “who does not know and does things deserving punishment.” This final servant is beaten with “few blows” (purgatory).

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Escaping through flames is imagery for the refining fire that some must pass through in order to enter heaven. See this passage also:

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

So, again, where is the rapture found in scripture?