How are we saved?

[denwiles]

Jesus says unless you are born of water and Spirit you can’t get into heaven.

The council of Carthage 200s and Justin, Augstine, Basil etc etc etc all say this water and Spirit is baptism

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned.

So to be saved we have to believe AND be baptised
Just becuase believes is utterd first doesn’t change things
He said believe and, not believe and be saved and then later be baptised

True the Bible says to be baptized. Notice a very important thing though. Believe and Baptized; it goes hand and hand. The Baptism I believe in is not the One you believe in. I was baptized as a baby. But then when I totally gave my life to Jesus, I was baptized again. Why??? I believed in the Lord and my proof or the manifestation of that belief was when I was baptized. True belief is not just an intelligent thought, James saying, even the Demons believe and shudder, but proven by action. This is belief and baptism. A baby doesn’t believe. The point is simple Jesus either did it all or not at all. I obey out of Love; my works are out of Love. Look The Chaplet of Divine Mercy prayer "says when this prayer is said Jesus will come to the person dying and show mercy and not Judgment. It don’t matter who or what the Person is. You can’t say we got to do this or that to be saved and then believe a Prayer of faith can save a person dying. It’s either one way or the other. Remember when Jesus said call no man teacher. He wasn’t condemning the title. He was saying I am you Teacher. We teach what Jesus taught, because He is the Teacher. Mormons went astray because they followed a man; they made Joseph Smith their teacher instead of Jesus. We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit; we literally carry the Presence of God. I implore you to please listen to The Holy Spirit and know His voice. He speaks to your Heart and not your head. God Bless

 

[denwiles]

A few posts back, I told you faith vs. faith plus works was more semantics than a disagreement. I tried to explain to you that works is our response to God’s love. Below is what I found.

The declaration acknowledges that good works are a genuine response to God’s grace—not the cause of it.

It does not say Martin Luther was right.

I will pray for you Brother, I’m just going to give this conflict between you and me to the Lord Now. If you are saved and I am saved then we are both Sons of God and I don’t want to Hurt my Father by fighting with my brother. God Bless

 

[denwiles]

That didn’t answer the question. Where is “rapture” found in scriptures?

Please Stop!!! Where is purgatory found in the Bible? I agree the Bible doesn’t say “my beloved one day the rapture cometh.” LOL. Neither does it say "When you die thou shalt go to Purgatory. Paul said to avoid these endless arguments. So now look what I did, I sinned and must go and repent. God Bless

 

[SHW]

A few posts back, I told you faith vs. faith plus works was more semantics than a disagreement. I tried to explain to you that works is our response to God’s love. Below is what I found.

The declaration acknowledges that good works are a genuine response to God’s grace—not the cause of it.

It does not say Martin Luther was right.

You are correct. The media twisted the facts about the Catholic-Lutheran declaration to say what they wanted the “facts” to say instead of the “truth.”

We agree with Lutherans that we are saved by grace alone, but “Faith Alone” is not biblical and we do not agree with Lutherans on this.

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

A man will not be saved unless he does good works. Good works are the proof of genuine faith. We are judged by our works on Judgment Day, not on our faith alone.

Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Please Stop!!! Where is purgatory found in the Bible? I agree the Bible doesn’t say “my beloved one day the rapture cometh.” LOL. Neither does it say "When you die thou shalt go to Purgatory. Paul said to avoid these endless arguments. So now look what I did, I sinned and must go and repent. God Bless

Catholics believe that when Jesus returns at His Second Coming, that those, who are alive on earth after the defeat of Antichrist, will meet Jesus in the air at this time and that our bodies will be instantly changed from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible. The Latin word for this “being caught up in the air” is “rapiemur” which is where the English word “rapture” comes from. davidmacd.com/catholic/raptured_catholics.htm

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

These two Scriptures are about the same event and it happens at Jesus’ Second Coming at the end of “time” on Judgment Day at the sound of the trumpet. Catholics do not believe that Jesus will come and take His Church out before the tribulation of Antichrist. It is not Biblical.

Acts 14:22 "strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Hi, JJ59.

You say, “iii) What of the verses like “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31) and “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)? How do they fit into the Church’s teaching?”

As a kid, I used to ask a parallel question: When we say, “Christ died FOR us,” what does that mean? Why wasn’t the crucifixion of Sparatacus just as effective?

IMO, here is a correct “brass tacks” description of the salvation process…

Each of us is a bag of about 6 trillion cells, and all of those cells ask one question: When do we eat?

When He created us, God attached the free will of each of us to our respective bag of screaming, hungry cells. Against this onslaught of demand, our free wills have no chance…without more – the Final Ingredient.

The Final Ingredient is empowering grace, “magical fairy dust from God,” so to speak, which, if accepted, enables us to deal with the greediness of our selves, and build in a way that amounts to a walk to friendship with God in the Beatific Vision.

But there’s a problem. God is what He is, but always “perfectly.” So, not only is He “perfectly loving,” but He is also “perfectly just.” For us “created creatures,” this comprises a problem.

A free will attached to 6 trillion cells screaming, “Feed me!” is nothing but a Sin Machine. It’s worth garbage, in the sense that it has not worthiness to walk up to God and “shake His Hand” in the Beatific Vision. And the Pergect Justice of God is brutal. It says, “NO! NO FREEBIES! NO PENNIES FROM HEAVEN! IF WE GIVE THESE PIGS GRACE ENABLING THEM TO COME INTO OUR PRESENCE AND SHAKE OUR HANDS, IT HAS TO BE PAID FOR! SOMEONE HAS GOT TO PAY FOR THIS GRACE!”

The sinless, loving Second Persojn of the Divine Trinty raised His hand and said, “I WILL; I’LL PAY! SEND ME TO SUFFER TERRIBLY AND DIE!” The loving First Person of the Trinity responded, “I lovingly accept your loving offer, and lovingly offer up this Son I so desperately love as My sacrifice to perfect justice, to let grace flow!”

And so He came, and though perfect He suffered terribly and died, paying the price exacted for grace by Perfect Justice.

After that, God offers grace, and we accept it or reject it.

I think that inside of God, a timeless event somehow vaguely resembling that narrative occurred.

 

[golfjack]

PO18, Thanks for your comments. I did attend Catholic schools for 16 years. Not one time did any of these schools tell me, and encourage me to even read or stuudy the Bible. I remember when I was a child in 1950, that the Bible was forbidden to read or study by authority of the Catholic Church. History tells us that during the reformation, the Catholic Church tried to keep the Bible out of the hands of the people, and even killed or tried to people like Wycliff and others. I think that the Church has apologized for this.

Denwiles, Thank you for being true to your calling to teach the Word. There is an old saying that says your gifts will follow you. As you know, I am a Preacher. I am working on a deal to preach in a Catholic Church about salvation. This Church is an Evangelistic Catholic Church. Please pray that this event comes about. God bless you.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Canto]

PO18, Thanks for your comments. I did attend Catholic schools for 16 years. Not one time did any of these schools tell me, and encourage me to even read or stuudy the Bible. I remember when I was a child in 1950, that the Bible was forbidden to read or study by authority of the Catholic Church. History tells us that **during the reformation, the Catholic Church tried to keep the Bible out of the hands of the people, **and even killed **or tried to people **like Wycliff and others. I think that the Church has apologized for this.
Church. Please pray that this event comes about. God bless

Do you have actual evidence for saying in the 50s the Bible was forbidden, never seen any such offical document

During the ref most people were illiterate

Did you know it was illegal for Americans under British rule to print the Bible
Did you know that during the ref countless monastries were trashed and their libraries of sacred scripture burned
That in Ireland it was illegal for anyone to have a manuscript including the bible - penatly was death
That queen Elizabeth said ‘torture by rack’ for having the Rheims Bible

The ref wasn’t all one sided you know

The Church began translating the Bible into English 1 whole millenium before the King James Bible

from Dave Armstrong’s page
The situation was no different in other European countries. From 1450 to 1550, for example, there appeared (with express permission from Rome) more than forty Italian editions or translations of the Bible (from 1471 to 1520) and eighteen French editions (ten appearing before 1520), as well as others in Bohemian (two), Belgian, Russian, Danish, Norwegian, Polish, and Hungarian. Spain published editions starting in 1478 with the full approval of the Spanish Inquisition. A total of 626 editions appeared, of which 198 were in the vernacular languages, with the sanction of the Catholic Church, before any Protestant version saw the light of day.

German translations by 1350 (nearly 2 centuries before Luther’s) with 13 more between 1450 and 1550

During the reformation Latin was far from a dead langauge. Even Sir Isaac Newton I believe published his works in Latin so the educated of Europe could read them.

 

[PJM]

=golfjack;5140320]Mark, Are you saying we must earn our redemption? How do we earn this? Let me give you one point about men who are out of Christ ( lost). Out of Christ every man is rotten in the heart. And mere outward correctness of life, apart from Christ, is artificial and the practice of hypocrites. And Jesus said of those He called hypoctrites, … for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleaness ( Matt. 23:27). You see, the problem is in the heart, the spirit of men. To reform the outward man or outward life will not save you. Peace, Golfjack

Catholics understanding on Redemption and Salvation is biblically founded and supported.

We know that the Birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ resulted in The redemption of all of humanity!

But what does this mean?

It means that due to the Original Sin [saying NO! to God] that access to heaven was blocked. By Christ Redemptive act, Heaven is once again a possibility!

1 Jn. 5: speaks about sin having two levels of seriousness. Catholics call them “Venial” (lesser sins”) and “Mortal sins” which as the name implies. A Mortal wound results in death. Similarly a Mortal Sin results in complete separation of our personal relationship with our God.

Jn.20: 23-24 Express God’s very specific desire to afford humanity an opportunity to correct this natural tendency of humanity to sin, even to sin Mortally. But it is to be done “Conditionally” ON God’s STATED TERMS. This is also affirmed in Mt.16: 19. Further evidence can be found in Lk. 8: 11-15, James 4: 8, Rom.1: 24-25, Rom.2: 13.

**Read all of James Chapter 2, and Mt. 19:16. **

Catholics understand that Salvation is and has to be, through the Merits of Jesus Christ. But we also understand that is precisely because of the actions of Christ, the suffering of Christ, that Divine Justice demands some sort of “pay-back.” How else can one explain the absolute need for Baptism** [Jn. 3: 5] **and total and complete adherence of God’s Commandments? Why the mandate from Jesus to Confess our sins? Jn. 20:23-24.]

Why did Christ give “the keys to the gate of Heaven to St. Peter” and found His Church? Why did Christ institute the Seven sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Reconciliation, [the sacrament of known Forgiveness, and yes it is God, not the priest who forgives sins!], Marriage, Holy Orders [the Priesthood], and Anointing of the sick?

Precisely, because we all MUST cooperate with Christ Plan for our Salvation, but accepting and applying the Merits of our Blessed Lords death and Resurrection.

Salvation is only through Jesus Christ, but it is a “gift with strings attached.” How could our “all-good” God treat everyone the same way? Are grievous sinners to be judged in the same light as someone that knows, loves and accepts and cooperates with God’s Grace? If so, why even bother trying?

OSAS assumes that one “who has been saved” can rape, pillage, murder, commit adultery, be a practicing homosexual, and still get to heaven? How unfair, unjust and anti-biblical is that?

It’s the entire Word of God that binds us and explains the process of Salvation, the need for works, the need for Baptism, Obedience of All the Commandments all of the time, the need for Christian Charity. The need, acceptance and right application of GOd’s grace,
and the need to both REPENT and CONVERT, our lives.

Love and prayers,

 

[tmac1956]

PO18, snip… I remember when I was a child in 1950, that the Bible was forbidden to read or study by authority of the Catholic Church. snip…

I have heard this soooooo many times in the past, yet no one has ever presented even one scintilla of evidence to substantiate such as ridiculous claim. Sources please!

PO18, snip… History tells us that during the reformation, the Catholic Church tried to keep the Bible out of the hands of the people, and even killed or tried to people like Wycliff and others. I think that the Church has apologized for this. snip…

Unfortunately, the history you’ve been reading is of the revisionist bent. First, Wycliffe died in his sleep - he was not killed. Tyndale was killed - by Henry VIII and not by the Catholic Church. Secondly, the Church never tried to keep the Bible out of the hands of the people. They did, however, try to keep bad translations out of the hands of the people, and rightly so. Why? Because they did and still do take seriously their role as the”… pillar and bulwark of the truth”.

 

[denwiles]

Hi, JJ59.

You say, “iii) What of the verses like “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31) and “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)? How do they fit into the Church’s teaching?”

As a kid, I used to ask a parallel question: When we say, “Christ died FOR us,” what does that mean? Why wasn’t the crucifixion of Sparatacus just as effective?

IMO, here is a correct “brass tacks” description of the salvation process…

Each of us is a bag of about 6 trillion cells, and all of those cells ask one question: When do we eat?

When He created us, God attached the free will of each of us to our respective bag of screaming, hungry cells. Against this onslaught of demand, our free wills have no chance…without more – the Final Ingredient.

The Final Ingredient is empowering grace, “magical fairy dust from God,” so to speak, which, if accepted, enables us to deal with the greediness of our selves, and build in a way that amounts to a walk to friendship with God in the Beatific Vision.

But there’s a problem. God is what He is, but always “perfectly.” So, not only is He “perfectly loving,” but He is also “perfectly just.” For us “created creatures,” this comprises a problem.

A free will attached to 6 trillion cells screaming, “Feed me!” is nothing but a Sin Machine. It’s worth garbage, in the sense that it has not worthiness to walk up to God and “shake His Hand” in the Beatific Vision. And the Pergect Justice of God is brutal. It says, “NO! NO FREEBIES! NO PENNIES FROM HEAVEN! IF WE GIVE THESE PIGS GRACE ENABLING THEM TO COME INTO OUR PRESENCE AND SHAKE OUR HANDS, IT HAS TO BE PAID FOR! SOMEONE HAS GOT TO PAY FOR THIS GRACE!”

The sinless, loving Second Persojn of the Divine Trinty raised His hand and said, “I WILL; I’LL PAY! SEND ME TO SUFFER TERRIBLY AND DIE!” The loving First Person of the Trinity responded, “I lovingly accept your loving offer, and lovingly offer up this Son I so desperately love as My sacrifice to perfect justice, to let grace flow!”

And so He came, and though perfect He suffered terribly and died, paying the price exacted for grace by Perfect Justice.

After that, God offers grace, and we accept it or reject it.

I think that inside of God, a timeless event somehow vaguely resembling that narrative occurred.

Very creative! I say this in a good way you should write a book. God Bless

 

[po18guy]

True the Bible says to be baptized. Notice a very important thing though. Believe and Baptized; it goes hand and hand. The Baptism I believe in is not the One you believe in. I was baptized as a baby. But then when I totally gave my life to Jesus, I was baptized again. Why??? I believed in the Lord and my proof or the manifestation of that belief was when I was baptized.

But, only your first baptism removed original sin. Having a second baptism rejects the faith of those who had you baptized, does it not? Consider:

Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Jesus also saw the faith of your parents at your baptism. Do we not rely on the grace of God until such an age at which we can consciously decide our faith?

 

[denwiles]

But, only your first baptism removed original sin. Having a second baptism rejects the faith of those who had you baptized, does it not? Consider:

Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Jesus also saw the faith of your parents at your baptism. Do we not rely on the grace of God until such an age at which we can consciously decide our faith?/QUO

I guess it would reject the faith if all this was a religion and a bunch of rules. But I’m not in a religion, there are many of those in the world. I’m in a relationship with my Father through Jesus my Lord and Savior. Jesus is the one Mediator. God on one side, man on the other side and Jesus bringing both together. And on the original sin issue read Ezekiel 18:19-20 the sin of the father is not passed to the son. The soul that sins dies. I just had a talk with the Father this morning as I do every morning. He gave me much to do today, so I guess in His mercy and love for me through the Blood of Jesus he still wants to talk with me, even though you think I rejected the faith. That is a Satanic thing to say to someone. Jesus Loves me!!! God Bless

 

[po18guy]

I guess it would reject the faith if all this was a religion and a bunch of rules. But I’m not in a religion, there are many of those in the world. I’m in a relationship with my Father through Jesus my Lord and Savior.

But, so are all who claim Christ. You are also in a relationship with those you love. Do you have total freedom, or do you follow rules within those relationships? Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Since Jesus believed in obedience to commandments, so should we, right?

And on the original sin issue read Ezekiel 18:19-20 the sin of the father is not passed to the son.

Context context context! This is not about the sin of Adam and Eve. This refers to the Jewish belief that your sin was on the heads of your descendants to the seventh generation. Since Christ, we know that we answer only for our own sin. Do you believe that we suffer from a fallen human nature? Consistent Christian belief is that we are descended from disobedient sinners.

I just had a talk with the Father this morning as I do every morning. He gave me much to do today, so I guess in His mercy and love for me through the Blood of Jesus he still wants to talk with me, even though you think I rejected the faith.

DIDN’T say that! I said that you rejected your first baptism. Why? By your insistence upon a second baptism, what did you embrace and what did you reject?

That is a Satanic thing to say to someone. Jesus Loves me!!! God Bless

You COMPLETELY misunderstood me. I say that some of your theology is in error. Now, for the love of trying to correct a brother who appears to be in error, I have become satanic? OK. Please know that some of your particular beliefs and practices are very recent teachings. This is what I am trying to express to you. I make no judgment upon your faith or love of our Lord - it is obvious. I just wonder by what authority you make some of your claims about baptism.

 

[PJM]

=Prodigal Son1;5141952]That didn’t answer the question. Where is “rapture” found in scriptures?

Its not!

Christ came, died, was Raised from the dead, and “will come again in Judgement.”

There is NO third comming. It is an American Theory that is not-biblical.

Love and prayers,

 

[PJM]

=po18guy;5144884]But, only your first baptism removed original sin. Having a second baptism rejects the faith of those who had you baptized, does it not? Consider:

John 3: "5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”

Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” {/QUOTE]

OK, we all Agree God can and Godes forgive sins.

Luke 5:20

When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Again this Jesus, not you or me.

Jesus also saw the faith of your parents at your baptism. Do we not rely on the grace of God until such an age at which we can consciously decide our faith?

Mt. 16: 19 " I [JESUS] will give you [Peter and My Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [Peter] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you [Peter} loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."[/COLOR]

That friend is very clear and very specific.

Mt. 19: 17 "And he JESUS] said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good.** If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”**

Jn. 20: 21"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained
.”

That too is clear, concise and from the mouth of Jesus!

Heb.10: 6 “This is the covenant that I [JESUS] will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts,[and thus bind them to it] and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more.” 18 **Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. ** And this forgiveness is as described by Mt. 16:19 and Jn.20:23-24.

Baptism, because it is for the forgiveness of ALL sins, not just Orginal sin, can only be received VALIDLY ONE TIME.The reason is it leaces an indellible mark that identifies you to God as one of his Children.

Acts 22: 16 "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your **sins, [plural] ** calling on his name.’

Love and prayers,

 

[golfjack]

Some of you are astonishing to me. Does Jesus come three times? No. How does He come for His Church in the rapture? He comes to meet us in the air, descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. Jesus is in the clouds, in the air ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17). For the critics, where does it say He touches ground?:banghead:
Peace, Golfjack

 

[SHW]

I guess it would reject the faith if all this was a religion and a bunch of rules. But I’m not in a religion, there are many of those in the world.

Well, according to St. Paul, we are all in a “religion” of some sort depending on our own beliefs. It just depends on what “religion” each one of us is living as to whether one’s religion is useful or not for salvation. (Acts 26:5)

James 1:23-27 “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.”

So, you do not understand that your “religion” is of your own making since it does not follow Jesus’ gospel. Jesus founded a Church and He says that if you reject it, then He says you reject Him. “Feelings” are not a good barometer for measuring if a person’s relationship with God is pleasing to Him. Obedience to His gospel is what counts. (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:15-18, 1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Luke 10:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

Scripture does not support your idea of a simple “personal relationship with Christ” without the guidance of His Church. He set up His Church to minister with His authority on earth. (Hebrews 13:17, Hebrews 13:24, 1 Timothy 5:17, 2 Timothy 2)

Pax,
SHW

 

[po18guy]

John 3: “5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” {/QUOTE]OK, we all Agree God can and Godes forgive sins.Again this Jesus, not you or me.Mt. 16: 19 " I [JESUS] will give you [Peter and My Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [Peter] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you [Peter} loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”[/COLOR]That friend is very clear and very specific.Mt. 19: 17 "And he JESUS] said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good.** If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”**
Jn. 20: 21"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained
.”**That too is clear, concise and from the mouth of Jesus!**Heb.10: 6 “This is the covenant that I [JESUS] will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts,[and thus bind them to it] and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more.” 18 **Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. ** **And this forgiveness is as described by Mt. 16:19 and Jn.20:23-24.**Baptism, because it is for the forgiveness of ALL sins, not just Orginal sin, can only be received VALIDLY ONE TIME.The reason is it leaces an indellible mark that identifies you to God as one of his Children.Acts 22: 16 "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your **sins, [plural] ** calling on his name.’ Love and prayers,We are both discussing Catholic doctrine and belief with a “bible” Christian. I am attempting to show him that many of his beliefs are very new and not supported in scripture - except by a twisting or modern, non-authoritative interpretation thereof.

 

[denwiles]

Well, according to St. Paul, we are all in a “religion” of some sort depending on our own beliefs. It just depends on what “religion” each one of us is living as to whether one’s religion is useful or not for salvation. (Acts 26:5)

James 1:23-27 “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.”

So, you do not understand that your “religion” is of your own making since it does not follow Jesus’ gospel. Jesus founded a Church and He says that if you reject it, then He says you reject Him. “Feelings” are not a good barometer for measuring if a person’s relationship with God is pleasing to Him. Obedience to His gospel is what counts. (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:15-18, 1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Luke 10:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

Scripture does not support your idea of a simple “personal relationship with Christ” without the guidance of His Church. He set up His Church to minister with His authority on earth. (Hebrews 13:17, Hebrews 13:24, 1 Timothy 5:17, 2 Timothy 2)

Pax,
SHW

The Church is the People!!! Why is that so hard for you to understand? And my beliefs are the Bible. Look if you even had the slightest where I came from and what God brought me through. You would understand God is my whole life. You don’t have any power to tell me I can’t have a personal relationship with Jesus outside the Church. The Church Is the People. Not your buildings and, systems. Jesus saved me and you will never take that away. Didn’t Paul say “is Christ divided? I Have heard some of you say you follow Paul, or cephas, or Apollo’s. Was Paul Crucified for you?” Jesus died for me and I am part of His Church. Which is every believer in Christ? [Bijous said I am the way to the Father. He never said the Roman Catholic Church is the way to me. My hope is in the Lord.**Did Jesus come to build buildings filled with statues. No He came to build His Church (the People) Matthew 16:18 you are Peter (Greek: Little Rock) and on this Big Rock I will build my People. The People which is the Church are built on CHRIST. AND THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST MY PEOPLE. Jesus came to save and give power to his people. You’re just another person calling your self my brother and trying to make me feel like I’m not saved. GUESS WHAT I AM SAVED. Do you just reject Scripture at will? All who call on the Name of the Lord are saved. If you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart that God raised Jesus from the Dead you will be saved. (Edited) Salvation is found only in Jesus. Like it or not this is the truth. So I’m trying to help you avoid being in error with the Love of Jesus and the truth of the Gospel. God Bless