How are we saved?

[SHW]

I think we need to remember Who does the saving. Jesus saved me so it was perfectly and completely done. The Holy Spirit had to come to me as I was a totally depraved sinner. And as such, it is impossible for me to have a part in my salvation. I show I am now His by my devotion to Him but my imperfect meager efforts in no way affect my salvation. God has me in His hand and no one-not even myself- can cause me to lose my salvation.

Yes, Jesus does the saving, but we must cooperate with the spiritual graces that He gave us when He first saved us, in order to continue to be saved and to inherit eternal life after we die.

It is the Holy Spirit abiding in us Who is the guarantee of our salvation. As long as He is abiding in us, we are saved. But if we sin deliberately after Jesus saves us, we have defiled our temples, and the Holy Spirit then leaves our souls. He cannot live in a soul that has been defiled by mortal sin (sin leading to death). If we die in this state of mortal sin, then we are destroyed (condemned to hell). (1 John 5:16-17)

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.”

2 Corinthians 5:5 “Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.”

Ephesians 1:13-15 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

How is it possible to lose our Guarantee (the Holy Spirit) for eternal life after we are saved?

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.”

We lose our Guarantee for eternal life when we defile our temples with mortal sin. The Holy Spirit leaves our souls when we defile them with mortal sins. He must be present in our souls at the time of our deaths in order for us to inherit eternal life. (Matthew 7:20-23) If the Holy Spirit is not abiding in our souls at the time of our deaths, then Jesus will not “know” us and we will be condemned to everlasting fire. (Matthew 25:30-46)

Here is another passage which tells us the same thing but in a different way:

Hebrews 10:26-30 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

Jesus’ sacrifice no longer saves us if we deliberately sin mortal sins after our initial salvation, because we insulted the Spirit of grace by sinning, and so He left our souls/temples when we defiled His temple (our souls). By sinning deliberately, we have in deed (by evil works) counted the blood of the covenant by which we were sanctified a common, useless thing, and so the Holy Spirit no longer resides in our souls. If we do not repent before death, God will take vengeance on us and we will be condemned to hell for eternity. (Titus 1:16, Matthew 10:33) The Holy Spirit must be residing in our temples/souls at the time of our deaths in order for us to inherit eternal life.

Salvation is conditional upon our own free will choices after Jesus first justifies us. He gives us a “clean slate,” but then we have to keep it clean in order to inherit eternal life. (1 Timothy 4:16, Colossians 1:22-23, Romans 11:21-23, 1 John 5:13, Ephesians 5:5-7, Revelation 21:8)

Pax,
SHW

 

[Brian_Boru]

There is a title from Catholic Answers, “The Essential Catholic Survival Guide”, a book of apologetics that lays out the Catholic answer to this question beautifully. I would suggest purchasing a copy. The answer to this question alone is worth the cover price. And as an added bonus, there are lots of answers to lots of other questions too!

 

[SHW]

The preaching of the word is equally important but very overlooked and trivialized in Catholic tradition. The following scriptures were at one time essential to the Catholic faith.

Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Galatians 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

These quoted Scriptures and Scripture in general are still essential to the Catholic faith and always have been. Some persons discount them, but they are in error. The teaching magisterium of the Catholic Church has always taught that Scripture is very important. Scripture, properly interpreted, supports the truths of the Catholic faith.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

My experience is the same as Golfjack’s. We never saw a bible or even heard the word bible mentioned in Catholic school. I think many Catholics are unaware of that. The Baltimore Catechism was “the bible” that the Catholic Church used and the standard of teaching from 1885 to the 1960’s. This is what the Baltimore Catechism says about the bible.

catholicinformationcenteroninternet.org/Catechism/Part3/l12.html#RTFToC30

The Baltimore Catechism - Part 3

Q. 561. Must we ourselves seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe?
A. We ourselves need not seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe. God has appointed the Church to be our guide to salvation and we must accept its teaching us our infallible rule of faith.

Q. 562. How do we show that the Holy Scriptures alone could not be our guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith?
A. We show that the Holy Scripture alone could not be our guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith:
(1) Because all men cannot examine or understand the Holy Scripture; but all can listen to the teaching of the Church;
(2) Because the New Testament or Christian part of the Scripture was not written at the beginning of the Church’s existence, and, therefore, could not have been used as the rule of faith by the first Christians;
(3) Because there are many things in the Holy Scripture that cannot be understood without the explanation given by tradition, and hence those who take the Scripture alone for their rule of faith are constantly disputing about its meaning and what they are to believe.

I see no problem with the Baltimore Catechism. It is stating the Truth: Holy Scriptures alone can not be our only guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith. Misinterpreted Scripture is the only basis for the so-called “truth” for the many Protestant denominations. They should realize that truth cannot contradict itself so they cannot all be right in their own “doctrinal” interpretations since they disagree with each others’ interpretations.

I am sorry that your Catholic school was a bad school. I know Catholics who had similar experiences. However, not all Catholic schools neglected the Scriptures. Scriptures are helpful for explaining doctrine, for reproof, for correction, etc. (2 Timothy 3:16-17), but they are never to be used as the sole rule of faith. This is not Biblical and is not supported by Scripture. Correct interpretation of Scriptures is the Church’s responsibility and it has God’s authority given to it to do this very thing: The Catholic Church has the authority and commission/duty to interpret Scripture infallibly so that no error will be taught to its members in regards to faith and morals. (Matthew 28:19-20, John 14:26)

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 “But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[thechristian]

we are save by grace thru faith…grace is accepting Gods free gift…and faith is doing Gods will thru our works baptisum, fruits, ect.

peace and blessings

 

[SHW]

Do you believe that God does miracles outside the Catholic church such as casting out demons, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, opening deaf ears, etc.?

I believe that God gives good gifts to all of His children who love Him, whether they are Catholic or not. He also gives good gifts to those who do not love Him.

Luke 9:49-50 "Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

Matthew 5:44-45 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

Welcome to CAF!. I’m glad that you are here.

Pax,
SHW

 

[golfjack]

What some fail to realize is that Jesus Christ took upon Himself our sin nature. Herbrews 9:26 says He, … put away sin ( not sins) by the sacrifice of himself. He took upon Himself our sin nature, the nature of spiritual death, that we might have Eternal Life. We see in John 5:24: I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

The New Birth does not take place gradually. It is instantaneous! It is a gift of God received the moment we believe.

In Eph 2:1 it says that you who were dead in trespasses and sins, that’s spiritual death, He has quickened, made alive and verses 8 and 9 tell you how it came about ( eph 2:8, 9 ).

Not of works! That punctures the baloon of the ego. Man needs to do something to save himself. He wants to have a part in it. But he can’t.

You have to simply admit your helplessness, and your hopelessness. You have to admit that you are just what the Bible says, a lost sinner. Then you come and accept what Christ has wrought for you, a gift.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What some fail to realize is that Jesus Christ took upon Himself our sin nature. Herbrews 9:26 says He, … put away sin ( not sins) by the sacrifice of himself. He took upon Himself our sin nature, the nature of spiritual death, that we might have Eternal Life. We see in John 5:24: I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

The New Birth does not take place gradually. It is instantaneous! It is a gift of God received the moment we believe.

In Eph 2:1 it says that you who were dead in trespasses and sins, that’s spiritual death, He has quickened, made alive and verses 8 and 9 tell you how it came about ( eph 2:8, 9 ).

Not of works! That punctures the baloon of the ego. Man needs to do something to save himself. He wants to have a part in it. But he can’t.

You have to simply admit your helplessness, and your hopelessness. You have to admit that you are just what the Bible says, a lost sinner. Then you come and accept what Christ has wrought for you, a gift.

  Peace, Golfjack

**Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. **

 

[paul_c]

Hi jdi, Thanks for your response. I believe if our Catholic friends could agree in one accord on how to be saved, then some of these arguments would cease.

    Peace,    Golfjack

We Catholics are in agreement.
You are saved by grace through faith when baptized.
After you are baptized, you must stay in the state of Grace by doing God’s will (loving God and loving your neighbor as your self).

If you fall from Grace through sin, you can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation.

We may say it differently, but the above is the essence of it.

 

[davidv]

The preaching of the word is equally important but very overlooked and trivialized in Catholic tradition. The following scriptures were at one time essential to the Catholic faith.

Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Galatians 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

You are completey wrong here. The Church has never overlooked nor trivialized the written Word. Just because some individual, or your recollection of them, did so, does not impune the Church.

How do you conclude that these scriptures are no longer essential to the Church?

 

[golfjack]

I can think of one point. What did the author of Heb. 10:26 when God said if we sin willfully after we received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin? I know the answer, but let’s see how the Catholic Church interpret this verse.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I can think of one point. What did the author of Heb. 10:26 when God said if we sin willfully after we received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin? I know the answer, but let’s see how the Catholic Church interpret this verse.

   Peace,    Golfjack

So we are comparing Church interpretation against your private interpretation to make sure the Church has it right? I only ask that question in hopes you can see the arrogance of your choice of wording to honestly discuss any differences, specifically your answer is supreme over any other interpretation.

Below is the Haydock Catholic Commentary:

Heb 10:26 If we sin wilfully. He speaks of the sin of wilful apostacy from the known truth; after which, as we cannot be baptized again, we cannot expect to have that abundant remission of sins, which Christ purchased by his death, applied to our souls in that ample manner as it is in baptism; but we have rather all manner of reason to look for a dreadful judgment; the more, because apostates from the know truth seldom or never have the grace to return to it. (Challoner)

 

[golfjack]

PS, There you go again. Trying to goat me into saying something that could get me kicked off this forum.

Heb. 10:26 talks about one sin that can make one lose their salvation forever ( the unpardonable sin, the willful rejection of Christ after one is saved). But it is not talking about a bunch of sins. If it were, then 1 John 1:9 could not be used when a believer sins.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

PS, There you go again. Trying to goat me into saying something that could get me kicked off this forum.

Heb. 10:26 talks about one sin that can make one lose their salvation forever ( the unpardonable sin, the willful rejection of Christ after one is saved). But it is not talking about a bunch of sins. If it were, then 1 John 1:9 could not be used when a believer sins.

  Peace,   Golfjack

I don’t want you kicked off the forum. I don’t want you to try prosetlyzing Catholics away from the Church either.

Now I answered your question, would you be so kind as to answer one I asked you awhile back, that you never addressed? What does St. Paul mean by, “if any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire?” (1 Corinthians 3:15)

 

[golfjack]

This verse is talking about the rewards judgment given at the judgment seat of Christ. Some works will burn because they don’t give credit to Jesus. This verse is not a purgatory verse.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This verse is talking about the rewards judgment given at the judgment seat of Christ. Some works will burn because they don’t give credit to Jesus. This verse is not a purgatory verse.

   Peace,   Golfjack

Let’s qualify your statement with, according to your interpretation. Then we can agree to disagree.

15. ‘If any man’s work is burnt down, he will be a loser, though he himself will be saved, but only like something which has been through fire’. He will be like one pulled out of a burning house, scorched but alive. The unworthy teacher will not lose his soul (he is not therefore guilty of mortal sin) but will lose his work and his special reward. The last words clearly imply some penal suffering, and as Paul connects it so closely with God’s judgement, it can hardly be confined to suffering in this world, but seems to include the idea of purificatory suffering after this life, i.e. in purgatory.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.
1Co 3:12 Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:
1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

 

[ron77nyc]

I see no problem with the Baltimore Catechism. It is stating the Truth: Holy Scriptures alone can not be our only guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith.Pax,
SHW

Any one of the epistles standing alone or the book of acts has enough information to explain the plan of salvation. If we believe in the Lord Jesus we are saved. Faith gets us in. Not our own good deeds. Once we are in, we are to be baptized and turn from sin.

You are completey wrong here. The Church has never overlooked nor trivialized the written Word. Just because some individual, or your recollection of them, did so, does not impune the Church.

How do you conclude that these scriptures are no longer essential to the Church?

No one knows about them. They may be read in the 3 year cycle at mass but no one teaches them. Bible study was never part of Catholic education.

Probably in your life time the Church has been teaching the scriptures but as I have stated before, the baltimore catechism was the book that teachers of the Catholic faith were required to know and teach and it tells all Catholics to not read the bible. There would be no problem with that if the Church was teaching the plan of salvation properly but they never did. Most Catholics that I know have a jumbled mess of religious rules stored in their memory such as: You can never be sure if God will accept you but if you do your best you will go to purgatory to suffer and pay for your sins…maybe…we don’t really know for sure.

It is true that the early church did not have the new testament but they also did not have a catechism. What was the plan of salvation taught by Jesus and the apostles? It was “believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” It was not “believe in the Lord Jesus, accept Peter as pope and accept the teachings of the magisterium.”

 

[SHW]

Any one of the epistles standing alone or the book of acts has enough information to explain the plan of salvation. If we believe in the Lord Jesus we are saved. Faith gets us in. Not our own good deeds. Once we are in, we are to be baptized and turn from sin.

If this is true, then why don’t many Protestants “get it?” They think that once they are saved that they then have “eternal security” and so they can never lose their salvation.

No one knows about them. They may be read in the 3 year cycle at mass but no one teaches them. Bible study was never part of Catholic education.

Probably in your life time the Church has been teaching the scriptures but as I have stated before, the baltimore catechism was the book that teachers of the Catholic faith were required to know and teach and it tells all Catholics to not read the bible. There would be no problem with that if the Church was teaching the plan of salvation properly but they never did. Most Catholics that I know have a jumbled mess of religious rules stored in their memory such as: You can never be sure if God will accept you but if you do your best you will go to purgatory to suffer and pay for your sins…maybe…we don’t really know for sure.

My father was born in 1932. He learned and memorized Scriptures in Catholic school. He had a thorough grounding in the faith. I was born in 1955 and I agree that after Vatican II, that many dioceses dropped the ball and I believe also that those leaders will be punished by God for their dereliction of duty such as those in my own diocese at the time.

However, we are all responsible to answer God’s call after we reach the age of reason. The Bible did not exist in its present form until after the invention of the printing press. Many people were illiterate and so stained glass windows showed important events in the Bible visually so that people could think about them. For 1500 years, Bibles were not owned by the common man. They were too expensive to produce and many persons were illiterate so Bibles would not have benefited them. This is why Jesus started a Church and gave it the responsibility to make disciples of all nations and to teach them to observe all the things that Jesus commanded them. He never told them to go out and write a Bible so that persons could read it and decide what it meant for themselves.

Matthew 28:19-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen”

It is true that the early church did not have the new testament but they also did not have a catechism. What was the plan of salvation taught by Jesus and the apostles? It was “believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” It was not “believe in the Lord Jesus, accept Peter as pope and accept the teachings of the magisterium.”

Where is your proof for this?

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

PS, There you go again. Trying to goat me into saying something that could get me kicked off this forum.

Heb. 10:26 talks about one sin that can make one lose their salvation forever ( the unpardonable sin, the willful rejection of Christ after one is saved). But it is not talking about a bunch of sins. If it were, then 1 John 1:9 could not be used when a believer sins.
Peace, Golfjack

Hi GJ,

Where does it state that this verse only applies to “one” unpardonable sin? My Bible states that if we sin deliberately (willfully) after we come to the knowledge of the truth (after we are saved) then Jesus’ sacrifice no longer saves us. I see no restrictions given to imply that it is only the “unpardonable” sin which is “impenitence.” All mortal sin (sins that lead to the death of the soul such as adultery, fornication, murder, etc.) cause us to lose eternal life unless we repent before death. That is why they are called “sin that lead to death” (of the soul). (Romans 6:16, 1 John 5:16-17)

Pax,
SHW

 

[mdcpensive1]

I guess I will butt into the conversation after scimming the posts.

We are talking about salvation history here and salvation is the process started after the fall of Adam and Eve. There was a separation from God by our first parents which had to be restored. The separation was from the supernatural to the natural when their preternatural gifts were taken away. This is why no human act can restore a relationship that is with the supernatural. It is not capable of such a great feat.

God chose in His infinite wisdom to come to us through a person that had two natures, both natural and supernatural. He chose this person to come through a people that were chosen by Him (Hebrews) so He may be born and live as a human. The chosen people were gradually instructed about His natures by the Law and Prophets so they could recognize his coming as the Savior and believe in Him.

Along the way the chosen people were like a wayward child that had to be instructed and corrected. In Ezekiel 36:25-27 God shows that they will be sprinkled to be made clean so as to receive a new heart. This is the passage that prefigures baptism and shows how God uses it to change a people.

Since Christ is supernatural (as well as human) his offering of Himself is the sacrifice that is perfect in the sense that it is so much greater than the broken relationship that existed with our ancestors. A supernatural offering of Himself was so great that now the two natures can relate again. This offering of Christ Himself merited the Graces necessary to be with Him and the Father. These Graces are now given to us as a gift for our salvation starting with the sacrament of Baptism which forgives our sins and puts the life of Christ in us (sanctifying grace). The sacraments are the channels of Grace that Christ freely gives us if we are in the condition to receive them. The sacraments are Christ-offered, not man made jestures. Previous actions in the OT were only signs that pointed to something greater. The Grace that is now in us is Christ’s life in us and we become one of the elements of His Body that is given to the Father at the end of time. The Father recognizes us be seeing Christ in us because of our sanctifying Grace.

Hope this helps

mdcpensive1