How are we saved?

[StephenFrancis]

It is so ironic that when I was an evangelical Protestant, the automatic answer most would say is, and rightly so, that we “were” saved by Christ’s sacrifice, “are being” saved by continued sanctification, or a daily cleansing and growing in Him, in other words “good works,” and that we “will” be saved (or our salvation will become totally secure) just after death and the personal judgment (Heb 9:27). Then on that last day when we stand before Him and our bodies resurrect and join once again to our souls, it will not only be secure but complete (Heb 9:28).

Catholics say those same three things as well, we but unpack them a bit differently. We “were” saved by the grace of Christ’s sacrifice, normally received through water baptism, and yes, essentially by faith, either after water baptism, in the case of infants, or at the very time of baptism in the case of adults or those past the age of reason. It is there that His saving grace is imparted to us fully, however again if we, truly through no fault of our own, are not baptized but do believe fully in Christ, we still will be saved by either the baptism of desire or blood as explained before in my earlier posts. We are “being” saved all of our lives. What Protestants generally call “sanctification” is the process that we call “being converted,” and we believe it happens many times until that last moment, when, assuming we have walked with Jesus each step until then, not perfectly but with a good heart and willingness to be corrected and “reconverted” each time we sin, we then “will be” saved finally. St Paul was told in the book of Acts (22:12-16) to be baptized and call on the Lord for his sins to be forgiven, and that was AFTER he was already a believer and had seen Jesus personally! So yes, baptism is “that important.” 1 John 1:7-10 tells us that, “if we confess” our sins He will forgive us, and that word is future tense, yet this and all of the epistles were written to those presently who were already believers, so obviously “post salvation sin” was indeed possible. James 5:14-16 alludes to this as well. We as Catholic Christians interpret that “confession” as generally occurring through the sacrament of Reconciliation, neccesary for mortal sins (1 John 5:16-17) but also useful for those lighter but real venial sins we all commit daily. Even one in mortal sin however, if he or she repents fully and out of love for Christ, they are forgiven immediately if it is coupled with the firm intention to go to sacramental confession as soon as possible afterwards. Catholics call that “perfect contrition” as another poster has mentioned in his or her quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913. It is well worth noting that this Encyclopedia was written almost 100 years ago, far before Vatican II. So we have always believed that one could be saved, even from mortal sin, if we repented fully and lovingly, meaning not just for “fire insurance” purposes! That teaching or concept is not new to the Church in any way. Finally Jesus said, in reference to salvation, that the one who ENDURED to the end was the one who would be saved. So we do believe it is possible to walk away from that state of grace, as I explained in my previous postings (161-162 I think). Lastly, for venial sins, we believe receiving the Holy Eucharist cleanses us from all venial sin, because we believe that the real presence of Jesus Himself within us cleanses those sins away immediately. St Paul told the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 11: 27-28 to examine themselves, and “then eat.” We have a penitential rite (or communal prayer asking for forgiveness) at the beginning of every Mass for that very reason, and so often my Protestant brothers and sisters (at least in my experience) skipped that step totally before receiving Communion! Not always, but it certainly was not built into the praise service or worship time automatically. We just shouted and chowed down hehe. All of the years I was Protestant I questioned that one.

Bottom line, we “were saved, are being saved, and will be saved,” but only if we endure to the end as Jesus taught us clearly in Matt 10:10 and 24:13.

 

[StephenFrancis]

The posting from the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 edition) is in post 181. It is excellent, and dovetails with this topic very nicely. God bless!

 

[StephenFrancis]

Way back in post 15, and repeated just yesterday or today, one of the folks posting (Dawson I believe) states that grace is “ineffable” and thus not explainable in regards to salvation. The idea that God is a mystery, at least in His fullness to us, is something saints or future saints have grappled with through all of the centuries.

In regards to salvation, grace itself is indeed “ineffable.” We know the definition, and we know it comes to us through a faith walk with Jesus Christ as best we understand him, normally through baptism but always through a total and heartfelt trust in His finished sacrifice on the Cross. The tools God uses, the cross, faith, baptism, the Sacraments, the Church, those are not the mystery, but what happens on the other side is. What I mean is this–we receive Him in a concrete and clearly visible manner–a profession of faith and a dunk in some H2O. But that is only the physical manifestation of what saves us, and the means by which that salvation is given to us. But that gift of salvation itself is indeed a mystery, in fact the word Sacrament itself actually means mystery! That is why a child of 7 years can sing “Jesus loves me this I know” and know it to be true, and on the other hand why intellectual giants such as Sts Augustine and Thomas Aquinas can write book after book only to say, as St Thomas did at the end of his life, that his works and writings were nothing but “straw.” I believe I am quoting that correctly, if not someone please correct me. Mighty good straw, I might add, but he realized, as so many of us finally do at some point in our lives, that “the more you know, the more you know you don’t know.” That is where the ineffable comes in.

The earthly side of the Sacraments, the elements (form and matter) that God gives us, whether water, oil, the words of consecration, and the like, can be pinned down as clear earthly actions, but the grace behind them–never. God is indeed ineffable, but His way of reaching out to us is concrete. Amazing. I love that word ineffable! But I will never fullly understand it.

 

[jamil_joseph02]

The Catholic view on this is that future sins are not forgiven. Past sins are forgiven when we are baptized and each time we go to confession. To be saved you need to stay in the state of grace by doing the will of God. If you sin, you can be redeemed through confession, contrition, repentence and penance in the sacrament of reconciliation.

hey I guess my next question fits your answer.

Question: Okay, so a person could lose God’s grace if he commits mortal sin, and if he confesses (to the priest) and receives Eucharist, he will gain that grace again. Okay, so does that mean that the Catholic Church provides the means for our salvation?

 

[paul_c]

hey I guess my next question fits your answer.

Question: Okay, so a person could lose God’s grace if he commits mortal sin, and if he confesses (to the priest) and receives Eucharist, he will gain that grace again. Okay, so does that mean that the Catholic Church provides the means for our salvation?

Christ provides the means for our salvation through the church, which he established for this very role: to help people get to heaven.

 

[denwiles]

Dear Brother Jack,

Are you aware that America is the only country on planet earth that has a large population that holds this belief? [a third comming is NOT anywhere in the bible].

Are you aware that is is a relatively recent understanding, begaining in the late 1800’s?

Are you aware that this position is anti-biblical?

In an earlier post on this string I gave evidence that there are at least two very specific verses that Jesus proclaims that we will not know the time or the day.

If we look at your passage, begaining with verse 15, not simply 16 and 17, here is what we find.

1 Tess. 4:15 "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who **have fallen asleep./**U] 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord

1. Mt. 24: 21-23 “21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 and if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.” Christ is telling us the Elect will be here for The Tribulation!

2. Common Sense Question: If the “saved” are raptured before the Tribulation, what difference would the Tribulation make? No difference! If the Elect are already in Heaven, why the Tribulation?

3. Mt. 24: 11-13 “11 and many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved. 14 and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. See the Elect are still on planet earth.

**7. In 1848 Somehow or another the Jews have once again been gathered in Israel so the “Rapture is once again eminent.” Mt. 4: 17 “**From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” People have so brought into this error, that they willingly accept a “word” spoken by Jesus thousands of years ago as being the current “promise” of God!

1. The word “rapture” actually means in Greek: that a king or high dignitary is coming.” The “rapture of today” refers to the people going out to meet the king (as at the story of the wedding feast) and to escort the king to the wedding. NOTE: the king does not change direction, the king simply joins the people who have come out to meet and escort him, and continues in the same direction from which he is coming.
2. 1 Cor.15: 50-58 50 “I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable**,(this happens B4 we die) ** and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor
   is not in vain.”
3. Mt. 24: “21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 and if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 for false Christ’s and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
4. **We will not know the day of reckoning! Mt. 24:38 **For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.”

Love and prayers friend,

Maybe I souldn’t butt in, I just think we should love each other, because no one is changing their mind. Although some very good points were brought up. Satan wants us to fight and hate each other, Jesus died so we could love God and each other. Anyway God bless.

 

[StephenFrancis]

Actually I think the whole purpose of this forum is to promote lively discussion, and actually folks DO change their minds at times. The key is to do so with gentleness and respect of all opinions, but sharing them is not a bad thing. So you arent butting in, but I do happen to disagree slightly. God bless.

 

[wardrandolph]

Wow! This is interesting. I just read “Assurance of Salvation?” at catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp . I am a Christian and I hope you accept me as your brother in Jesus Christ. The reason why I say that is because I am not Catholic and I do not claim a religion, denomination, etc. but I have participated/served in denominations. Right now, I play my guitar and sing in one of the praise and worship teams in a non-denominational fellowship. From 2005 to 2008, I participated/served in a baptist denomination.

I have been around people who claim, “once saved; always saved” (such as from certain baptist) and others who said, “you can fall from grace” (such as from certain pentecostals). Now I see why they cannot come together in unity because they do not accept the other scriptures. On and off thoughout the years, I have wondered about their beliefs because everytime I would read the word(s) of God; I would see both sides. I still have many questions about Catholicism. I do not know/understand everything about Catholicism but I would like to know/understand it. I guess you can consider me as a baby to Catholicism because I need to mature/know/understand it.

Do you believe that God does miracles outside the Catholic church such as casting out demons, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, opening deaf ears, etc.?

May God abundantly bless you!

Your Friend and Brother in Christ Jesus,
Jamie

Shalom! (Peace!)
JESUS CHRIST IS LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS FOREVERMORE, HALLELUJAH, AMEN!

Yes.

 

[StephenFrancis]

Hi Brother in Christ!

One of the things a wise Assemblies of God minister once told my mom when she was vascilating between the Catholic Church and the A/G was that there was likely more in common between them than between A/G and a number of Protestants denominations! Having been in A/G for 20 years (12 as a minister) before my return to Rome, I tend to agree, and his words and attitudes always helped to keep me from becoming zealously anti-Catholic during my 35 years away.

Catholics for example, as he mentioned to her, have always believed in the miraculous and still do. God has not changed. The biggest caution would be that there are some who make that their main goal instead of deepening their walks with Jesus Christ, and that can happen in either circle, Catholic or Protestant. We also leave room for the will of God in each case, knowing that God can indeed heal, but sometimes He heals the person from the “inside out” first and allows the sickness to remain for various reasons. We believe that suffering, truly given over to God, can become a form of intercessory prayer that may be used by God for the salvation of others or even the healing of others, and so He may allow it. Job is a great example of that one, as well as the man born blind from birth who Jesus clearly said “neither he sinned nor his parents, but the sickness was for the glory of God.”

Catholics also do not believe in the eternal security theory, and a very honest reading of the New Testament as a whole, not just “proof texting” but each of the Gospels and certainly the Epistles, reveals again and again that no one in leadership of the New Testament churches ever allowed room for “backslidden” disciples. There was alway provision for them to return, but discipline and even excommunication if they did not, such as in 1 Cor 6. They told them over and over, in no uncertain terms, to follow Christ until the end, never resting on presumpton, and then through the martyrdom of most of them set that example in stone for all of us. If eternal security was true why bother to die for Christ, since you are saved either way? You might lose a reward or two but heaven was guaranteed either way? That was never their attitude. On the other hand we do believe in the keeping power of the Holy Spirit and that you cannot be “accidentally” lost either (see my posts in 160-161 of this thread which discuss salvation and mortal sin as well as its remedy).

So welcome in your exploration of Catholicism, and I think I can speak for most of us that we would welcome anyone at whatever point in their search for the living Christ and His Church. God bless.

Peace be with you!

 

[mdcpensive1]

Well stated StephenFrancis, we are all coming to a greater understanding of how Christ works in our lives. You have stated the position of the church very well and even those who have a better foundation in the faith can gain appreciation for your words.

If I may reply to wardrandolph, I would like to say that Christ does work miracles outside the Catholic Church because Christ is not limited by anything. He had given us commandments and instructions to follow for us to be led to Him, but He works in mysterious ways known only to Him and for the purposes we can only know at the end of time. The council of Trent has explained that there exists an indirect relationship to the Catholic Church by those who may not realize the affiliation. He can use this as well as anything else to manifest signs of His greatness and presence.

We should be praying for each other always to come to an even greater understanding of how Christ is with us and works in our lives. For me, I want Christ to be able to say that I am His friend and the way to do this is by prayer as I work out my salvation and run the race as St. Paul would say.

mdcpensive1

 

[StephenFrancis]

Thank you for your encouragement, it is odd this forum calls me a new member, however I have been on the forum since 2007 but had not posted much until lately.

ALthough many years outside the Church, I was actually well catechized growing up, still under the “Baltimore Catechism” system from grades 1-6 and was an altar boy for 4 years, the one nun in our parish even called me the “little priest” and kept saying to “listen to that voice” lol. She reminds me to this day of another great sister, one Mother Angelica, who definitely influenced me on my journey back to the Church.

I do have a solid theological background, although from a Protestant perspective, and just am finishing as of tomorrow the first year of a 2 year Catechetical Institute here in the area which has Jeff Cavins as its director. Oddly, at one time in our Protestant years we attended the same church but did not know one another then! It is top notch, and at the end of the 2 years we will have gone through all 4 pillars of the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) and with it much study of the source documents behind it as well, so it is truly a mini-Catholic studies program that hopefully will dovetail well with my Protestant studies over the years.

So truly I have far to go but I am learning! God bless, and again thank you for your continued encouragement of my postings of late.

 

[golfjack]

S. F. Do you think it is in God’s redemptive plan to heal us physically heal us? I don’t believe it is a matter of if thy will, but His Word is the will of God.

I believe some AOG’s believe that one must be born again and born again and born again after they have sinned, but is this practice Biblically sound? Did you ever strudy Heb. 9:28? If you did, please explain your position?

My Pastor’s Mother was kicked out of an AOG church for having books about healing by the late Rev. Kenneth Hagin. I have also ministered to an AOG church member who was told that by getting married after being divorced she was going to hell. Again, not Biblically sound. Study 1 Cor. 7 once and see what I mean.

I guess, I can see why you have joined the Catholic Church because they teach condemnation too. But good luck in your future indeavers:thumbsup:
Peace, Golfjack

 

[ralphy]

Hi everyone.

I was wondering: How are we saved?

I mean, I consider the Catholic Church to be authoritative, but I can’t seem to get a straight answer when it comes to salvation. (In contrast, Protestants have a straight answer, “Believe in Jesus”.) I even checked the CCC and it made zero sense. Can someone please give me a short, simple answer to the question? Specifically:

i) I’ve heard it been said “Grace alone”. If so, how do we receive that grace?

ii) Where is this in the Bible?

iii) What of the verses like “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31) and “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)? How do they fit into the Church’s teaching?

Thanks!!!

(Oh, and by the way, I’m not trying to be pesky, I’m honestly looking for answers. Thanks!)

Read Eph 2:8,9 and you will see. Ralph

 

[SHW]

Read Eph 2:8,9 and you will see. Ralph

You forgot verse 10.

It is just as important as 8 and 9. We must walk in them (good works) in order to continue to be saved.

Ephesians 2:10 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[StephenFrancis]

Golfjack, your mulitiple questions aimed at me in this latest posting of yours sound more like “set ups” to me. Perhaps you do not mean them to sound that way, but they do come across as such, especially when you throw multiple angles to me all at the same time.

I would turn it around to you and ask you why, if we are all meant to be healed in this life, the Apostles all were martyred but one, why there are only less than 40 recorded healings by the Apostles and Jesus Himself in the entire New Testament, and why Jesus not only taught us to pray “thy will be done” (a phrase which is claimed to be the “badge of doubt” as I recall from the writings of the late Kenneth Hagin, who incidentally died in a hospital bed and was not healed on this earth from his heart condition), and why Our Blessed Lord in the Garden prayed nearly the identical words to His own prayer given to us, and even repeated them at least 3 times, to the Father–do you think that was that a lack of faith on His part? I don’t think so.

I do not believe in a religion of condemnation. I explained the Catholic position on salvation very clearly in posts 161-162 and several others, and it would be redundant for me to keep explaining it further. I am genuinely sorry your mother had a bad experience in the A/G, and in fact it is not my purpose to defend them or for that matter Catholics or any other believers who do unkind or unthinking things. But I would suggest you guard against letting yourself carry that same bitterness into this thread, as it sidetracks the discussion, which is on salvation and how it is brought to us through Christ and His One Sacrifice–not whether I or any other member here believe in the concept of 'healing in the atonement." That is a side issue best left for another discussion in my opinion. But for the record I do believe in healing–I just believe however that some are healed on this side of the gate of heaven, and some on the other. Neither would be healed without the atoning blood of Christ. I hope that at least begins to answer your questions on what Catholics believe and why, and clears up some of your misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine. God bless you in your search.

 

[SHW]

Grace means “Favor undesearved” Why is this subject complicated to People? We already Know Jesus provided the Sacrifice for Redemption. Now how do we recieve that redemption is always the argument. First of all it is a Gift and we all know that. Paul clearly says. So the Sacrifice is done and God is offering the World this GRACE. Hello!!! Jesus is the Grace. So how do we recieve it? Some say through Baptism others say through Belief. In Baptism we are being Baptised into Christ, so it is still Christ alone who saves. Baptism is an act saying yes Lord, I recieve the already done sacrifice of Jesus. Surley you don’t think the water it self saves you? Many think that and I have heard it preached that way. So it is simple Jesus paid the price of sin that was against man, and through the act of Baptism, because this shows God and the world that we truly believe in Jesus. Look God on one side and man on the other side. They were joined back together through Jesus. That is why He is our one Mediator. I’m not talking about prayer mediation, we have many mediators in prayer, but only one Mediator that brings man to God Christ Jesus. God Bless and I hope your having an awesome week in Jesus.

Hi Denwiles,

Actually, Jesus saves us through baptism. This is His chosen way to apply the merits of His blood sacrifice to our souls. (There is also Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood which supply and apply when water baptism is not possible.)

1 Peter 3:18-22 “by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21** There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism** (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.”

This is Baptism which removes sins from our souls. It is not a bath that removes dirt from our skin but is instead a washing away of sin from our souls which gives us a good conscience before God. This Baptism saves us because Jesus uses this water to remove the sins from our souls when the names of God are invoked at this same time.

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

And may you have an awesome week in Jesus, too.

Pax,
SHW

 

[golfjack]

Brother Hagin was sitting in one of his favorite chairs at his home, and looked at his wife and told her I am going Home now. Before this, in a vision, Jesus asked him whether he wanted to go in the rapture or go home sooner.

You failed to answer my question about Heb. 9:28? This verse is about salvation.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[SHW]

S. F. Do you think it is in God’s redemptive plan to heal us physically heal us? I don’t believe it is a matter of if thy will, but His Word is the will of God.

I believe some AOG’s believe that one must be born again and born again and born again after they have sinned, but is this practice Biblically sound? Did you ever strudy Heb. 9:28? If you did, please explain your position?

My Pastor’s Mother was kicked out of an AOG church for having books about healing by the late Rev. Kenneth Hagin. I have also ministered to an AOG church member who was told that by getting married after being divorced she was going to hell. Again, not Biblically sound. Study 1 Cor. 7 once and see what I mean.

I guess, I can see why you have joined the Catholic Church because they teach condemnation too. But good luck in your future indeavers:thumbsup: Peace, Golfjack

Hi GJ,

I think that God heals some people because it is His will and He also does not heal others because it is not His will to do so. But, both are for the good of the souls of the persons in each circumstance. God loves us and wants us to inherit eternal life so that we can spend eternity with Him. He acts on His knowledge of us, for our spiritual benefit and His decisions are based on His love for the good of our souls.

Hebrews 9:28 “so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

This means that Jesus arrived on earth 2000 years ago the first time in order to redeem us from our sins so that we can have a right standing with God. He will appear a second time to make our corruptible minds and bodies incorruptible and our mortal bodies immortal and He will judge us for salvation since He has defeated death. Those who did not know Him or obey Him are condemned to hell for eternity.

John 5:28-30 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “…when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

It does not get any plainer than this.

1 Cor. 7:10 “Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.”

1 Cor. 7:39 “A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God.”

No divorced person is free to marry unless his/her spouse dies. Nowhere in Scripture does it state that a divorced person may remarry while the spouse is alive. If a divorced person remarries, then he/she is committing adultery.

Luke 16:18 “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.”

“Sexual immorality/unchastity” in Matthew 5:32 refers to illicit marriages between persons of close blood relationships forbidden by Mosaic Law and rabbinical tradition; unions that were radically invalid due to some impediment. It does not refer to one spouse committing adultery against the other spouse. And if one spouse does commit adultery, the innocent spouse still cannot remarry. Nowhere in Scripture does it state this. People assume it by misunderstanding and misinterpreting Matthew 5:32.

We cannot change what Jesus commands even if persons like yourself feel that His commands are unjust. Peter states correctly: "Now ’ If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?’” 1 Peter 4:18

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Pax,
SHW

 

[StephenFrancis]

Sorry, Golfjack, you are absolutely right about my passing by the Hebrews 9:27 verse–I guess I was so busy trying to answer all of your other questions that I missed it. Thankfully another poster, just below my post, did indeed respond to both it and to your divorce question, and said it much better than I might have anyway.

I am not here to argue the virtues of Kenneth Hagin, who, as far as I know, was a dedicated Christian minister. I am sure, in fact I know several people, who benefited from his ministry. However that does not change the fact that some of his doctrinal positions on healing are not what we as Catholics believe. Also, as stated before this thread is more about salvation than divine healing issues. We do believe, as Roman and Eastern Catholics, in divine healing. We have a miracle working God! We just do not believe it happens in every single instance, at least in an earthly visible way, or that in the cases where it does not occur it is neccesarily a lack of faith on the part of the individual. That assessment is not only dangerous doctrinally but extremely hurtful on a personal leveI in far too many cases–and often used against others to judge them rashly.

Just for example, I have a dear friend who lost a baby and nearly lost his wife during the delivery and was then nearly destroyed by the church he attended because he and his wife were both cruelly attacked for having “no faith.” He is one of the most dedicated Christians I know, is constantly reading and studying the Word of God and sharing it with others in a kind and gentle way. But God is mystery itself, and His ways, as the Sacred Scriptures declare, are above ours. It is never wrong to say “thy will be done.” I think Kenneth Hagin was right that some people hide behind words such as those, but if they are said with sincerity and faith, you truly cannot go wrong with them. I have no more to add to that topic.

I noticed you did not address the questions I asked you regarding the deaths of the Apostles or the fact that, however gloriously it may have occurred, Kenneth Hagin now lies in a grave. Death sadly is still a part of the cursed fallen world, and does occur to all of us until the very last day when Jesus comes back to earth–and as Catholic Christians we believe He indeed will come back bodily. The important thing, back to the salvation issue, is to be prepared whenever that may occur. He told us to be ready, and that means living actively for Him. Faith without works is indeed dead.

God bless.

 

[twb1621]

S. F. Do you think it is in God’s redemptive plan to heal us physically heal us? I don’t believe it is a matter of if thy will, but His Word is the will of God.

I believe some AOG’s believe that one must be born again and born again and born again after they have sinned, but is this practice Biblically sound? Did you ever strudy Heb. 9:28? If you did, please explain your position?

My Pastor’s Mother was kicked out of an AOG church for having books about healing by the late Rev. Kenneth Hagin. I have also ministered to an AOG church member who was told that by getting married after being divorced she was going to hell. Again, not Biblically sound. Study 1 Cor. 7 once and see what I mean.

I guess, I can see why you have joined the Catholic Church because they teach condemnation too. But good luck in your future indeavers:thumbsup:

Peace, Golfjack

In regard to your reference of Heb. 9:28; Chapter 9 establishes that Jesus died once for our salvation but doesn’t establish by any means that His death allows us to sin and remain saved without repentance and reformation of acts we commit. If you continue reading Hebrews into chapter 10 which is all one related writing you will see we still remain of free will to choose sin or not and are offered instruction to remain in support of each other and performing “Works” living as we are instructed but it also shows we CAN sin and loose our salvation.

HEBREWS CH 10 20 10 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, 21 11 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,” 22 let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience 12 and our bodies washed in pure water. 23 **Let us hold unwaveringly to our confession that gives us hope, for he who made the promise is trustworthy. 24 We must consider how to rouse one another to love and good works. 25 We should not stay away from our assembly, ****13 as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26 **14 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

In regard to 1 Cor CH7 surely you are not suggesting that through these verses one can divorce and remarry in a social or civil sense, enter into an active marital relationship and not find themselves in a state of sin. Perhaps I am mistaken in what I read as your points in these verses.