How are we saved?

[SHW]

Also God’s Word warns much about “traditions” Col 2:8, “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on “human traditions”
Mat.15:2-4 Jesus was asked, “Why do your disciples disobey the ancient Jewish Traditions” He replied, 'And why do your Traditions violate the direct Commandments of God?” Could He be also speaking of idols? 2 Pet.2:21 states that men are not infallible. Ed

Circumcision can not save a person in the New Covenant so it is no longer necessary and this God-ordained OT “tradition” (commandment) no longer needs to be followed.

The Pharisees made up traditions such as the one about “Corban” which taught people to disobey God’ commandment so that they no longer took care of their parents who were in need. This violates God’s commandment to “Honor your father and your mother” so this man-made tradition is evil.

Mark 7:10-13 "For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 **making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. **And many such things you do.”

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

Colossians 2:8 “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to** the tradition of men**, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.”

Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

However, the apostles have new traditions from Jesus which must be taught and followed because they are the commands of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

The “traditions of men” that violate the direct commandments of God are evil. The traditions of Jesus Christ which the apostles taught are good. We must make a distinction between the two kinds. We must follow the traditions of Jesus and the apostles which were handed down through the Church whether by word (oral teaching) or by epistle (written letter). “Traditions of men” which do not violate the commandments of God can be either good or neutral, depending on what they are.

Celebrating the 4th of July in the USA is a man-made tradition and since it does not violate the commandments of God, it is either good or neutral in God’s eyes. But, if a person celebrates the holiday with drunkenness, then he has violated God’s commandment.

 

[ralphy]

Catholic tradition is the word of God
Not the word of man

I seem to remember St Paul doing a similar thing to St Peter. I’m sure St Peter had legitimate reasons.

Notice Paul calls Peter Cephas (c.f. John 1:42) which is the Aramaic word for rock.

Again Catholic Tradition is the word of God

Peter and the apostles were given binding and losing powers etc. This didn’t cease when they all died. It continued with their successors.

The Bible is written tradition, it tells us amongst much else how we are saved, the books were selected by the Church and she chose books that did not contradict oral tradition.

If you consider the Bible as written tradition, then the Roman Catholic church should follow the bible and stop teaching all the things they have added to the bible. Let me ask you a question please. What/who is the church? Ralph

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you consider the Bible as written tradition, then the Roman Catholic church should follow the bible and stop teaching all the things they have added to the bible. Let me ask you a question please. What/who is the church? Ralph

Ralphy,

That is painting with a broad brush, but without paint, to make an accusation that the Catholic Church has added to the Bible without explaining what things you think have been added.

The Catholic Church is a scriptural Church, even if you reject the interpretations.

It appears you’ve taken your daily “jab” at the Catholic Church and immediately logged off, again.

 

[golfjack]

Either the Word of God is true or not. I believe one must decide for himself on how to be saved, by going directly to the Bible for himself. This matter is just too important to put it into the hands of a particular church group. I know many here don’t identify with me, but please don’t make scripture fit into your own personal theology or any particular church group. Again, find out for yourselves.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Either the Word of God is true or not. I believe one must decide for himself on how to be saved, by going directly to the Bible for himself. This matter is just too important to put it into the hands of a particular church group. I know many here don’t identify with me, but please don’t make scripture fit into your own personal theology or any particular church group. Again, find out for yourselves.

  Peace,  Golfjack

Hello Golfjack,

Long time!

Actually, it appears you are fitting scriptures to your theology. What I mean is, no where does the scriptures tell us it is the sole authority, or that we should privately interpret those scriptures. Of course, I’m open to correction if you’d care to show us the scriptures that do support the Bible is the sole authority or that we should privately interpret them.

On the other hand, scriptures do tell us that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth. Come on and find out for yourself.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Circumcision can not save a person in the New Covenant so it is no longer necessary and this God-ordained OT “tradition” (commandment) no longer needs to be followed.

The Pharisees made up traditions such as the one about “Corban” which taught people to disobey God’ commandment so that they no longer took care of their parents who were in need. This violates God’s commandment to “Honor your father and your mother” so this man-made tradition is evil.

Mark 7:10-13 "For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 **making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. **And many such things you do.”

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

Colossians 2:8 “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to** the tradition of men**, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.”

Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

However, the apostles have new traditions from Jesus which must be taught and followed because they are the commands of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

The “traditions of men” that violate the direct commandments of God are evil. The traditions of Jesus Christ which the apostles taught are good. We must make a distinction between the two kinds. We must follow the traditions of Jesus and the apostles which were handed down through the Church whether by word (oral teaching) or by epistle (written letter). “Traditions of men” which do not violate the commandments of God can be either good or neutral, depending on what they are.

Celebrating the 4th of July in the USA is a man-made tradition and since it does not violate the commandments of God, it is either good or neutral in God’s eyes. But, if a person celebrates the holiday with drunkenness, then he has violated God’s commandment.

Hi SHW, I hope you enjoyed the Memorial Day holiday. My Point is this, both Catholics and Protestants have the Bible as their authority. But Catholics believe in many other rules etc. that are not in the Bible. Over much time, just like the Jews who added much more rules to God’s Word, it appears to me that the Catholic church does the same. Verbal traditions can’t be proven. Many of the early Fathers, who were not infallible contradicted each other. Popes even excommunicated each other. In defense of Church dogma, Pope Urban VIII threatened Galileo with torture if he would not renounce his claim that the earth revolved around the sun. The pope declared that view was contrary to Scripture. In fear of his life Galileo recanted. It wasn’t until 1992, Vatican found Galileo to be right. On a personal note, I was told it was a sin to eat meat on Fridays. Now it’s okay. Sin is a violation against God. Did God now change His mind? I recalled praying to St. Christopher, but now he’s no longer a saint. What happened to him? Please understand, I’m not trying to be critical only asking questions. God Bless. ED

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hi SHW, I hope you enjoyed the Memorial Day holiday. My Point is this, both Catholics and Protestants have the Bible as their authority. But Catholics believe in many other rules etc. that are not in the Bible. Over much time, just like the Jews who added much more rules to God’s Word, it appears to me that the Catholic church does the same. Verbal traditions can’t be proven. Many of the early Fathers, who were not infallible contradicted each other. Popes even excommunicated each other. In defense of Church dogma, Pope Urban VIII threatened Galileo with torture if he would not renounce his claim that the earth revolved around the sun. The pope declared that view was contrary to Scripture. In fear of his life Galileo recanted. It wasn’t until 1992, Vatican found Galileo to be right. On a personal note, I was told it was a sin to eat meat on Fridays. Now it’s okay. Sin is a violation against God. Did God now change His mind? I recalled praying to St. Christopher, but now he’s no longer a saint. What happened to him? Please understand, I’m not trying to be critical only asking questions. God Bless. ED

Excuse me for saying so Ed, but the tone of your post is more critical than only asking questions. If you have questions, present them, one at a time so they can be addressed properly. Providing a laundry list of objections from your perspective really does appear to be more critical than just asking questions. For example a blanket statement of Catholics believe many rules that not in the Bible without naming any specific rules appears to be taking an unfair “jab” at Catholicism, especially in light of the fact that you hide your denomination. Are you afraid to address certain rules you follow that are not Biblical? Another example of it appearing more critical than asking questions is the fact that you did not address one point in the post you quoted.

I apologize but I do not believe you are really interested in an honest discussion. I’m just calling it as I see it.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Excuse me for saying so Ed, but the tone of your post is more critical than only asking questions. If you have questions, present them, one at a time so they can be addressed properly. Providing a laundry list of objections from your perspective really does appear to be more critical than just asking questions. For example a blanket statement of Catholics believe many rules that not in the Bible without naming any specific rules appears to be taking an unfair “jab” at Catholicism, especially in light of the fact that you hide your denomination. Are you afraid to address certain rules you follow that are not Biblical? Another example of it appearing more critical than asking questions is the fact that you did not address one point in the post you quoted.

I apologize but I do not believe you are really interested in an honest discussion.

Prodical Son 1, I am speaking about one point in post 357 to SHW. That is, how can we trust in verbal traditions when so much confussion exsits from past history. This is a Catholic Forum, so I’m asking questions accordingly, If this were a Religion Forum I would be questioning the Mormons, Jehovah"s Witnesses etc. By not posting my denomination has nothing to do with this discussion. Your real name isn’t Prodical Son 1 is it? There won’t be any denominations in heaven. Mat.11:26 states the believers were called “Christians” I get little disturbed when I read post 351 by Canto ( no offense Canto I’m trying to make a point) stateting that Peter is the Rock, therefore implying Catholics are the authority. But when I read my Bible In 1 Pet.2:4, Peter, himself, settles the Rock from the stones, by calling Jesus the Rock. Also Now Paul states in 1Cor 10:4 “the Rock was Christ.” Also in Rom 9:33 Jesus is the Rock., Duet 32:4 God is the Rock, Psalms31:3 God is the Rock, also 28:1, Isa 8:15, Isa. 44:8, “Is there a God or any Rock besides me?” ect.etc.etc. Please don’t pre-judge me. I’ve already been ridiculed as a “doityourself” philosophy, my interpretation of John 3:5 is laughable. We get nowhere when the messenger is attached. love in Christ ED P.S I don’t understand your last question ?

 

[SHW]

Hi SHW, I hope you enjoyed the Memorial Day holiday. My Point is this, both Catholics and Protestants have the Bible as their authority. But Catholics believe in many other rules etc. that are not in the Bible. Over much time, just like the Jews who added much more rules to God’s Word, it appears to me that the Catholic church does the same. Verbal traditions can’t be proven. Many of the early Fathers, who were not infallible contradicted each other. Popes even excommunicated each other. In defense of Church dogma, Pope Urban VIII threatened Galileo with torture if he would not renounce his claim that the earth revolved around the sun. The pope declared that view was contrary to Scripture. In fear of his life Galileo recanted. It wasn’t until 1992, Vatican found Galileo to be right. On a personal note, I was told it was a sin to eat meat on Fridays. Now it’s okay. Sin is a violation against God. Did God now change His mind? I recalled praying to St. Christopher, but now he’s no longer a saint. What happened to him? Please understand, I’m not trying to be critical only asking questions. God Bless. ED

I hope you enjoyed Memorial Day, too. I did. I will be happy to answer your objections.

Jesus gave His Church His authority on earth. (Luke 10:16, 2 Corinthians 13:10, Titus 2:15, 1 Peter 5:1-2) It does not state in Scripture that Scripture is the authority over Christians. The bishops rule over Christians. We are commanded to obey them. (Hebrews 13:7, Hebrews 13:17) The Church uses Scripture to help explain some of its doctrines, etc. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) However, notice it does not state that Scripture is the authority for Christians. Scripture actually states that the Church is the authority and that it rules over Christians. Christ gave Peter the keys of the kingdom. This means Peter has the chief stewardship position over all other stewards/bishops of Jesus’ Church. (Isaiah 22:15-23, Matthew 16:16-19, 1 Corinthians 4:1-2)

Jesus gave His Church the power to “bind and loose.” This means that He gave His Church the authority to make rules in His name. (Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18) Rules/laws are fine as long as they do not contradict God’s commandments and that they also help the Christian live a Godly life in order to inherit eternal life. (Mark 1:44, Mark 7:6-9, 2 Corinthians 10:8) Fasting is approved by God. (Psalm 69:10, Daniel 9:3, Joel 2:12, Matthew 6:16-18, Matthew 4:1-2) Some things cannot be accomplished without fasting. (Matthew 17:20-21)

Verbal traditions cannot be disproven either. (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 3:6) Traditions are part of Jesus’ gospel. (John 21:25)

All persons may have their own opinions regarding Scripture or faith and morals until the Church makes a definite decision regarding a certain passage or idea/doctrine so this is why the Early Church Fathers disagreed on some things. Debate is first, then decision by the Church’s hierarchy. Once the pope and magisterium decide, then we are bound by their decision. The Church usually only “defines” when a dispute occurs. (Luke 10:16, Matthew 18:17)

There can be popes in hell. Simply being named a “pope” does not protect him from hellfire. Leading a good Christian life and dying in a state of grace is what approves him for eternal life just as it does the rest of us. (Romans 12:1, Matthew 7:20-25, James 1:12) Popes will be judged more harshly than I, because they have been given more responsibility from God. (Luke 12:48, James 3:1)

The Church is the pillar/support and ground/foundation of the Truth, not Scripture. (1 Timothy 3:15) This means that the Church has Jesus’ authority to decide which books are to be canonized as Scripture, decide disputes, interpret Scripture infallibly and make rules regarding worship practices, etc. (2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Peter 2:1)

The pope and magisterium are only infallible when it concerns matters pertaining to faith and morals, not science. It is true that Galileo was under house arrest for the rest of his life but he had the things that he needed to live a comfortable life and to continue his studies (except freedom, of course).

Galileo was not 100% correct either. He said the sun was the center of the universe. It is not. The universe is much larger than Galileo ever dreamed of and our sun is not the center of it as Galileo claimed.

Eating meat on Friday is a law which can be changed using the “binding and loosing” powers of the Church and yes, if it is a law, then it must be followed under pain of sin if not obeyed. (Matthew 8:4) Moses had these same “binding and loosing” powers in the Old Covenant and even Jesus followed them because Moses had God’s authority to “command” these rules/laws.

St. Christopher is no longer on the “calendar,” but this does not mean that he is not a real saint. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher) I think he was really removed because someone wanted a different saint (their favorite) put on the calendar instead. It really does not matter. “All” persons who inherit eternal life are “saints.” The Church chooses to honor “some” of these exemplary saints in order to give us examples of a saintly “life” to imitate to help us to also reach heaven.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodical Son 1, I am speaking about one point in post 357 to SHW. That is, how can we trust in verbal traditions when so much confussion exsits from past history. This is a Catholic Forum, so I’m asking questions accordingly, If this were a Religion Forum I would be questioning the Mormons, Jehovah"s Witnesses etc. By not posting my denomination has nothing to do with this discussion. Your real name isn’t Prodical Son 1 is it? There won’t be any denominations in heaven. Mat.11:26 states the believers were called “Christians” I get little disturbed when I read post 351 by Canto ( no offense Canto I’m trying to make a point) stateting that Peter is the Rock, therefore implying Catholics are the authority. But when I read my Bible In 1 Pet.2:4, Peter, himself, settles the Rock from the stones, by calling Jesus the Rock. Also Now Paul states in 1Cor 10:4 “the Rock was Christ.” Also in Rom 9:33 Jesus is the Rock., Duet 32:4 God is the Rock, Psalms31:3 God is the Rock, also 28:1, Isa 8:15, Isa. 44:8, “Is there a God or any Rock besides me?” ect.etc.etc. Please don’t pre-judge me. I’ve already been ridiculed as a “doityourself” philosophy, my interpretation of John 3:5 is laughable. We get nowhere when the messenger is attached. love in Christ ED P.S I don’t understand your last question ?

My last question was in reference to you not providing your denomination so we can return questions about your beliefs. Since you assume that Catholics add rules to scriptural teachings, it seems fair that you be honest and let us know so we can ask questions as I’m sure there are things that would also have an appearance of not being scriptural. Let’s just start with sola scriptura, that is the Bible is the sole authority. I assume you follow this belief, yet it’s not in scriptures.

Peter was the rock chosen by Christ. It is quite clear as he was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the authority to bind and loose on earth.

Look at the place Christ chose to make this announcement. Caesarea Philippi, so named by Herod Philip, but originally was the city, Panion, of the great pagan god Pan. Pan was the pagan god of shepherds and flocks, among other things. Caesarea Philippi was believed to be the gates of a great abyss, or hell to Christians. Christ chose a place that, through the Church He was then establishing, is the antithesis to everything which kept men from the Kingdom.

A change in name in Scripture ALWAYS came with a significant change in stature and responsibility. It wasn’t a “whim” of Christ’s to change Simon’s name to Peter. And we know that change was real, as it’s referred to throughout the NT. What is the significance of the name change, if not to designate Peter as the primate over all the followers of Christ? Note that whenever a name change was made in the OT, there was an explanation for it – Abram becomes Abraham because God will make of him a great nation. Jacob becomes Israel because he contended and had power with God and with men and prevailed. Likewise, Simon becomes Peter because upon his strength in faith the sacred community of the faithful, the Church, would be founded.

The keeper of the keys is simply noted in Isaiah 22:22. 1Chron 9 details the specifics of the keys. The person who was designated as the keeper of the keys was the “right hand man” of the king. He literally sat at the right hand of the king’s throne.

The throne of David was considered by Jews to be the throne of God. (1Chron 29:23) Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

Christ is the cornerstone, that the builders rejected. I don’t know if you know anything about construction, but withtout a cornerstone, a building cannot be built. Peter, like the wise man who built his house upon rock, was the rock foundation Christ chose. Do you think Christ would have built His house upon sand, like the sands of Protestantism?

You take every example of stone, pebble and anything else resembling a rock to get scriptures fit your point, or view.

Peter called Christ the living “lithos” to use the Greek word used in the verse you referenced.

λίθος
lithos
lee’-thos
Apparently a primary word; a stone (literally or figuratively): - (mill-, stumbling-) stone.

Many Protestants will argue that Matthew called Peter, Petros, and make the argument that is a little rock.

Πέτρος
Petros
pet’-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock; as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock.

They argue that if Christ meant Peter to be the foundation, he would have used the Greek word, Petra, which is massive rock.

πέτρα
petra
pet’-ra
Feminine; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

The problem with that argument is Matthew wrote the Gospel and according to the times and culture, it would have been inappropriate to have referred to Peter in a feminine sense. The Greeks used gender nouns, just as the Spanish language does. For example el gato is a male cat, but la gata is a female cat.

The point becomes moot, as Christ spoke Aramaic and called Peter, Kēphas, which is the Aramaic word for ROCK.

Κηφᾶς
Kēphas
kay-fas’
Of Chaldee origin; the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter: - Cephas.

Peter’s name always come first when a list of Apostles is named. Peter’s name is mentioned 195 times in the New Testament, more than all the other Apostles put together.

Peter always spoke for the Apostles. Matthew 18:21. Mark 8:29, Luke 8:45, Luke 12:41, and John 6:68.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

A good place to start with how are we saved, is to start with the birthday of the church in Acts 2. Peter told the people of Israel that the Jesus they crucified, rose again and is the Lord and Messiah. They felt so moved and convicted that they asked, what shall we do? Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven and you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.”

If one sins after baptism, they should pray to God for forgiveness as Peter told Simon the Sorcerer who sinned after his baptism, in Acts 8:22- "Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

After baptism, Christians must humbly walk in the light and confess their sins.

1 John 1:7-8 “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

Christians must be faithful unto death, which partly means help the poor and be holy.

Revelation 2:10
…Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

**Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria
[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? “Behold, we have left all and have followed you” [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
[T]he Lord said to Peter, “On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. … Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” he says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church” . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem*
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

Optatus
In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan
[Christ] made answer: “You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . .” Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Augustine
Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear “I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).
Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).**

 

[SHW]

There won’t be any denominations in heaven. Mat.11:26 states the believers were called “Christians” I get little disturbed when I read post 351 by Canto ( no offense Canto I’m trying to make a point) stateting that Peter is the Rock, therefore implying Catholics are the authority. But when I read my Bible In 1 Pet.2:4, Peter, himself, settles the Rock from the stones, by calling Jesus the Rock. Also Now Paul states in 1Cor 10:4 “the Rock was Christ.” Also in Rom 9:33 Jesus is the Rock., Duet 32:4 God is the Rock, Psalms31:3 God is the Rock, also 28:1, Isa 8:15, Isa. 44:8, “Is there a God or any Rock besides me?” ect.etc.etc. Please don’t pre-judge me. I’ve already been ridiculed as a “doityourself” philosophy, my interpretation of John 3:5 is laughable. We get nowhere when the messenger is attached. love in Christ ED P.S I don’t understand your last question ?

Jesus is THE Rock. Simon is re-named Cephas/Rock by Jesus because he will represent Jesus on earth in the same manner as Moses did in the Old Covenant. This is why Jesus changes Peter’s name to Cephas which means “the rock” and states that He will build His Church upon this rock, Peter. (Matthew 16:18) Peter is to imitate Christ.

God changed Abram’s name to Abraham in the Old Testament because Abraham was to become the father of many nations. Simon’s name is changed to Cephas because he is to preach to all the nations and rule over them as a spiritual father. Paul and the other apostles are also called “fathers.” (1 Corinthians 4:15)

Jesus has become the “Chief Cornerstone.” (Acts 4:10-12) The Church is also built upon the foundation of the other apostles and prophets. (Ephesians 2:19-21)

The only denomination in heaven will be Jesus’ Catholic Church (which means universal) in order to distinguish it from all other denominations which claim to be the Church of Christ, but are not, because they do not have the Chief Shepherd/Steward guiding them and he alone has possession of the keys of the kingdom of heaven given to Him by Christ. (Matthew 16:17-19, John 21:15-19) Jesus is the supreme ruler over all and when He returns at His Second Coming, we Christians will all be together with Him always from that moment on in heaven. There will be no need for the keys of the kingdom then, because all of us will be in His kingdom and remain in His kingdom forever!(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

 

[SHW]

A good place to start with how are we saved, is to start with the birthday of the church in Acts 2. Peter told the people of Israel that the Jesus they crucified, rose again and is the Lord and Messiah. They felt so moved and convicted that they asked, what shall we do? Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven and you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.”

If one sins after baptism, they should pray to God for forgiveness as Peter told Simon the Sorcerer who sinned after his baptism, in Acts 8:22- "Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

After baptism, Christians must humbly walk in the light and confess their sins.

1 John 1:7-8 “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

Christians must be faithful unto death, which partly means help the poor and be holy.

Revelation 2:10
…Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Good post!

 

[EdOsiecki]

I hope you enjoyed Memorial Day, too. I did. I will be happy to answer your objections.

Jesus gave His Church His authority on earth. (Luke 10:16, 2 Corinthians 13:10, Titus 2:15, 1 Peter 5:1-2) It does not state in Scripture that Scripture is the authority over Christians. The bishops rule over Christians. We are commanded to obey them. (Hebrews 13:7, Hebrews 13:17) The Church uses Scripture to help explain some of its doctrines, etc. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) However, notice it does not state that Scripture is the authority for Christians. Scripture actually states that the Church is the authority and that it rules over Christians. Christ gave Peter the keys of the kingdom. This means Peter has the chief stewardship position over all other stewards/bishops of Jesus’ Church. (Isaiah 22:15-23, Matthew 16:16-19, 1 Corinthians 4:1-2)

Jesus gave His Church the power to “bind and loose.” This means that He gave His Church the authority to make rules in His name. (Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18) Rules/laws are fine as long as they do not contradict God’s commandments and that they also help the Christian live a Godly life in order to inherit eternal life. (Mark 1:44, Mark 7:6-9, 2 Corinthians 10:8) Fasting is approved by God. (Psalm 69:10, Daniel 9:3, Joel 2:12, Matthew 6:16-18, Matthew 4:1-2) Some things cannot be accomplished without fasting. (Matthew 17:20-21)

Verbal traditions cannot be disproven either. (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 3:6) Traditions are part of Jesus’ gospel. (John 21:25)

All persons may have their own opinions regarding Scripture or faith and morals until the Church makes a definite decision regarding a certain passage or idea/doctrine so this is why the Early Church Fathers disagreed on some things. Debate is first, then decision by the Church’s hierarchy. Once the pope and magisterium decide, then we are bound by their decision. The Church usually only “defines” when a dispute occurs. (Luke 10:16, Matthew 18:17)

There can be popes in hell. Simply being named a “pope” does not protect him from hellfire. Leading a good Christian life and dying in a state of grace is what approves him for eternal life just as it does the rest of us. (Romans 12:1, Matthew 7:20-25, James 1:12) Popes will be judged more harshly than I, because they have been given more responsibility from God. (Luke 12:48, James 3:1)

The Church is the pillar/support and ground/foundation of the Truth, not Scripture. (1 Timothy 3:15) This means that the Church has Jesus’ authority to decide which books are to be canonized as Scripture, decide disputes, interpret Scripture infallibly and make rules regarding worship practices, etc. (2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Peter 2:1)

The pope and magisterium are only infallible when it concerns matters pertaining to faith and morals, not science. It is true that Galileo was under house arrest for the rest of his life but he had the things that he needed to live a comfortable life and to continue his studies (except freedom, of course).

Galileo was not 100% correct either. He said the sun was the center of the universe. It is not. The universe is much larger than Galileo ever dreamed of and our sun is not the center of it as Galileo claimed.

Eating meat on Friday is a law which can be changed using the “binding and loosing” powers of the Church and yes, if it is a law, then it must be followed under pain of sin if not obeyed. (Matthew 8:4) Moses had these same “binding and loosing” powers in the Old Covenant and even Jesus followed them because Moses had God’s authority to “command” these rules/laws.

St. Christopher is no longer on the “calendar,” but this does not mean that he is not a real saint. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher) I think he was really removed because someone wanted a different saint (their favorite) put on the calendar instead. It really does not matter. “All” persons who inherit eternal life are “saints.” The Church chooses to honor “some” of these exemplary saints in order to give us examples of a because someone wanted a different saint (their favorite) put on the calendar instead. It really does not matter. “All” persons who inherit eternal life are “saints.” The Church chooses to honor “some” of these exemplary saints in order to give us examples of a saintly “life” to imitate to help us to also reach heaven.

Hi SHW, Thank you for your reply, but I have a problem with your response. The Catholic church ( I’m not trying to be critical) claims to be the sole authority per Mat 16:18 but the same authority was given to all the apostles in Mat 18:18. Then in Gal. 2:8 “Paul states,” For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostles to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. Then in Eph.2:19, God’s household (church) built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.” Throughout the whole New T. it speaks of churches, plural. In Rev. 1:20 It speaks, of the leaders of the seven churches and the Roman Catholic is not among them. That’s the end of Bible. Also somewhere in the New T. I read, it states the people (born again) believers are the church not one organization. Aren’t these valid questions for me to ask? But let’s get back to “How Are we saved” Love in Christ ED

 

[COLOS]

This is Ed, when I joined this forum, I thought it was a Chritian organization ? Am I wrong? I see more sarcasm here than I did before I got saved in a saloon among the drunks. About the 30,000 denominations, you may be wrong. At the last count there were 29,999. John 6:66 (very apropriate number at that) " From this time many of his (Jesus) disciples turned back and no longer followed him. Them Jesus asked the twelve, “You do not want to leave too, do you”? Did you ever stop to think that maybe there is only ONE of you because if you disagreed with the officials, Inquistion! then it got pretty hot at the stake. A far cry from what Jesus taught! Think about it!

There was no sarcasm in my response.

I’m not too sure what you are referring to here. The historical facts about the inquisition are very different from what you are saying. Are you aware that people sought out the inquisition as opposed to a secular trial? It’s okay, I wasn’t either until I decided to learn about what actually happened.

Take care,

Andrew

 

[EdOsiecki]

My last question was in reference to you not providing your denomination so we can return questions about your beliefs. Since you assume that Catholics add rules to scriptural teachings, it seems fair that you be honest and let us know so we can ask questions as I’m sure there are things that would also have an appearance of not being scriptural. Let’s just start with sola scriptura, that is the Bible is the sole authority. I assume you follow this belief, yet it’s not in scriptures.

Peter was the rock chosen by Christ. It is quite clear as he was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the authority to bind and loose on earth.

Look at the place Christ chose to make this announcement. Caesarea Philippi, so named by Herod Philip, but originally was the city, Panion, of the great pagan god Pan. Pan was the pagan god of shepherds and flocks, among other things. Caesarea Philippi was believed to be the gates of a great abyss, or hell to Christians. Christ chose a place that, through the Church He was then establishing, is the antithesis to everything which kept men from the Kingdom.

A change in name in Scripture ALWAYS came with a significant change in stature and responsibility. It wasn’t a “whim” of Christ’s to change Simon’s name to Peter. And we know that change was real, as it’s referred to throughout the NT. What is the significance of the name change, if not to designate Peter as the primate over all the followers of Christ? Note that whenever a name change was made in the OT, there was an explanation for it – Abram becomes Abraham because God will make of him a great nation. Jacob becomes Israel because he contended and had power with God and with men and prevailed. Likewise, Simon becomes Peter because upon his strength in faith the sacred community of the faithful, the Church, would be founded.

The keeper of the keys is simply noted in Isaiah 22:22. 1Chron 9 details the specifics of the keys. The person who was designated as the keeper of the keys was the “right hand man” of the king. He literally sat at the right hand of the king’s throne.

The throne of David was considered by Jews to be the throne of God. (1Chron 29:23) Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

Christ is the cornerstone, that the builders rejected. I don’t know if you know anything about construction, but withtout a cornerstone, a building cannot be built. Peter, like the wise man who built his house upon rock, was the rock foundation Christ chose. Do you think Christ would have built His house upon sand, like the sands of Protestantism?

You take every example of stone, pebble and anything else resembling a rock to get scriptures fit your point, or view.

Peter called Christ the living “lithos” to use the Greek word used in the verse you referenced.

λίθος
lithos
lee’-thos
Apparently a primary word; a stone (literally or figuratively): - (mill-, stumbling-) stone.

Many Protestants will argue that Matthew called Peter, Petros, and make the argument that is a little rock.

Πέτρος
Petros
pet’-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock; as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock.

They argue that if Christ meant Peter to be the foundation, he would have used the Greek word, Petra, which is massive rock.

πέτρα
petra
pet’-ra
Feminine; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

The problem with that argument is Matthew wrote the Gospel and according to the times and culture, it would have been inappropriate to have referred to Peter in a feminine sense. The Greeks used gender nouns, just as the Spanish language does. For example el gato is a male cat, but la gata is a female cat.

The point becomes moot, as Christ spoke Aramaic and called Peter, Kēphas, which is the Aramaic word for ROCK.

Κηφᾶς
Kēphas
kay-fas’
Of Chaldee origin; the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter: - Cephas.

Peter’s name always come first when a list of Apostles is named. Peter’s name is mentioned 195 times in the New Testament, more than all the other Apostles put together.

Peter always spoke for the Apostles. Matthew 18:21. Mark 8:29, Luke 8:45, Luke 12:41, and John 6:68.

Prodical Son 1, On post 364, I quoted eight Scriptures concerning that God (Jesus) is the Rock including Peter himself states so, what am I to do cut them out of my Bible or ignore them? If this is to be a forum discussion, explain them to me, rather than trying to make me look foolish by your nasty statement that I take every resemblance of stone, rock to fit my view point. The statement that you make about Peter is to “bind and loosen” is also given to all the apostles Mat 18:18. I don’t care what the church Fathers say, the Bible is inspired not them. Your putting much faith in the Peter Rock dogma, while the very first thing Peter did, after Jesus ascended to heaven was to make a “mistake”. He called a meeting to choose Matthias, with Paul that makes 13 apostles. Jesus in Mat19:28 states there will be twelve thrones, Rev 21:14 with twelve apostles names on them. Jesus the head of the church, He chooses the apostles not Peter. These are valid questions. If you don’t know any of them, at least tell me so. Love in Christ ED

 

[Canto]

If you consider the Bible as written tradition, then the Roman Catholic church should follow the bible and stop teaching all the things they have added to the bible. Let me ask you a question please. What/who is the church? Ralph

If the Bible is not written tradition than what is the written tradition St Paul is refering to that we need to hold onto?

Notice though St Paul says written and oral tradition. Do you hold onto both or just the Bible alone, 'cause scripture tells us to hold onto both.

The Bible came from the oral tradition. The first paragraph of Luke is evident of that.

If the Church only taught what was explicitly in the Bible she would be ignoring the Bible’s command to hold onto oral tradition.

Where is the NT canon in the Bible, an explicit definition of the Trinity, etc etc?

What exaclty has the Church added to the Bible.

Where in the Bible does it tell us what books should be inculded? The fact is it doesn’t. The Church told us what books should be included.

Does your OT have 25 books (the more comon Jewish canon) or the Catholic canon with a few books tossed out?

Martin Luther said without the Papists we would not know the word of God.

Jesus set up a Church with Peter (and his successors) as the earthly head, with Bishops and Priests (Presbyters) and the rest of the faithful. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, one faith (Eph 4:5) teaching the word of God.

The Bible says to be saved we have to be Baptised. To be saved, so this isn’t some little issue. Some say it’s symbolic, some say don’t need to bother, some say no water, some say a little water, some say full immersion. Now someone has to be right. Christ didn’t leave us as orhpans. He didn’t preach one thing and then expect that heaps of denominations would 1.5 milleniums+ later teach a myriad of different things.

Before the printing press (invented by a Catholic 1.5 milleniums after Christ’s Passion) how did your ordinary person have access to the Bible?

If the Church didn’t give us the NT canon than who did? Names?
If it was the Holy Spirit to whom did He reveal it to? Names?

Sorry if that’s a lot if questions

 

[SHW]

Hi SHW, Thank you for your reply, but I have a problem with your response. The Catholic church ( I’m not trying to be critical) claims to be the sole authority per Mat 16:18 but the same authority was given to all the apostles in Mat 18:18. Then in Gal. 2:8 “Paul states,” For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostles to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. Then in Eph.2:19, God’s household (church) built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.” Throughout the whole New T. it speaks of churches, plural. In Rev. 1:20 It speaks, of the leaders of the seven churches and the Roman Catholic is not among them. That’s the end of Bible. Also somewhere in the New T. I read, it states the people (born again) believers are the church not one organization. Aren’t these valid questions for me to ask? But let’s get back to “How Are we saved” Love in Christ ED

Hi Ed,

Jesus built only one Church. Singular. (Matthew 16:18) These individual “churches” spoken of in the NT are speaking of the “congregations” of this same one Church. They are named in order to distinguish where these individual congregations are located.

Rome (Italy) was spoken of in the NT. Hebrews 13:24 “Greet all those who rule over you, and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.” (Acts 18:2, Acts 27:1-7) Babylon was a code name for pagan Rome according to some scholars and it is also mentioned. (1 Peter 5:13)

The Church is a society of believers with a hierarchy. Individuals have no authority in the Church. The hierarchy rules over the Church with Jesus’ authority. (Hebrews 13:7-24) God appoints these rulers and will appoint them until He returns. (1 Corinthians 12:28, 2 Timothy 1:10-12, 1 Timothy 2:6-8)

Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

How does the Church continue its hierarchy with God’s authority down through the ages?

2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

So, if a person desires to be saved, then he should become a member of Christ’s one true Church and not be a member of a new “church” with a different gospel that is founded by a person who picked up a Bible and who decided to make his own church according to his own private individual interpretations of Scriptures. (2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:15-17, 2 Peter 2:1)

 

[SHW]

I don’t care what the church Fathers say, the Bible is inspired not them. Your putting much faith in the Peter Rock dogma, while the very first thing Peter did, after Jesus ascended to heaven was to make a “mistake”. He called a meeting to choose Matthias, with Paul that makes 13 apostles. Jesus in Mat19:28 states there will be twelve thrones, Rev 21:14 with twelve apostles names on them. Jesus the head of the church, He chooses the apostles not Peter. ED

These Church fathers decided which manuscripts were inspired and included them in their Bible. The Church decided to make the Bible. Jesus never commanded this in Scripture. The Bible has no authority in itself. The Church declares that it is the inspired Word of God. The Church authorizes the Bible and claims it to be “truth” and “inspired.” The Bible cannot authorize itself. It is a book. The Koran claims in its own scriptures to be the Word of Allah/God. A science fiction book can claim itself to be the Word of God. We have to actually believe the people who claim that their “book” is authentic.

God did tell John to write down his vision and we call it the Book of Revelation or the Book of the Apocalypse and John was commanded to send this book/letter to the seven individual churches which are addressed in this vision. (Rev 1:1-11)

The “twelve” thrones are a symbolic number. It does not have to be “literal” to be meaningful. Paul is the 13th apostle. So what? Jesus was not speaking of Paul. He was speaking to His disciples at that moment in time and Paul was not in the picture until after Jesus ascended into heaven. However, Matthias was. (Matthew 19:23) And, Peter appointed Matthias (Acts 1:15-26) because it was his duty to do so as chief steward (keeper of the keys of kingdom of heaven) in order to fulfill the prophecy. (Psalm 109, Acts 1:20)

Matt. 19:28 “So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”