How are we saved?

[Canto]

Have you been mislead by the rapture theory?
A Protestant article.

scribd.com/doc/331784/Have-You-Been-Misled-by-the-Rapture-Theory

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Canto:

"The thief might have known about the kingdom prior to the cross. This lowly thief understood Jesus’ mission and purpose which even many of the apostles had a difficult time understanding (Lk 24:25-26). Hence, everything in this story points to this thief having been prepared for this final moment with Jesus. Finally he hears Jesus say, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”… Taking the thief’s statement as an admission of guilt, Jesus’ invitation into paradise implies the forgiveness that accompanies repentance. The man acts, and Jesus responds. The thief, not Jesus, initiates the conversation… The thief apparently already had faith in God as demonstrated by his “fear of God” which he expressed to the other thief. He now had to put the faith into action by reaching out to Jesus in perfect contrition, however limited he was in doing so. Had he not reached out, he would have been condemned just like the unrepentant thief who remained silent.” quote from the Catholic Apologetics Study Bible – Gospel of Matthew

Which makes the point of my asking the question
Posted by Erchomai Kyrios:

When I come to questions like these I think of the example of 1 sinner whom I know went to be with the Lord. He happened to be a thief.

Question:
What did the thief do to earn heaven?
In Christ, Erchomai Kyrios

The thief did nothing to earn heaven. He simply saw who Jesus was, repented and petioned the Lord for His forgiveness and mercy.
(Had he heard before? The Word of God implies he had - perhaps on the road, perhaps on a distant mount.)Romans 10:17: ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi
For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

and then the thief simply saw his sin repented, and believed on the Lord Jesus and was saved. No works, no baptism, but yet chosen by God as one saved and with the Lord. The Gospel in nutshell.

May the Lord Bless
In Christ, Erchomai Kyrios

 

[paul_c]

The word of God is “living and active…judging…”

The word of God that is living and active and Judging Is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You know something Ed, sometimes it’s like beating a dead horse and try to make him go as to try to show some people by the word of God that there will be a “rapture” and that those who are born again Christians will be called home to be with the Lord befor the great tribulation

Articles Explaining & Debunking the Rapture – A False Tradition Protestant Men

**Raptured or Not? **
A Catholic Understanding
By Michael D. Guinan, O.F.M., Ph.D.
americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp

---

The Rapture
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

---

**LaHaying the Rapture on Thick
**By Carl Olson
envoymagazine.com/backissues/5.3/rapture.htm

Waiting to Be Raptured - Dispensationalist Thought in America
By Carl El. Olson
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9904fea1.asp

 

[ralphy]

The word of God that is living and active and Judging Is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

Jesus judges us through His word, which is the Bible. Ralph

 

[paul_c]

Which makes the point of my asking the question
The thief did nothing to earn heaven. He simply saw who Jesus was, repented and petioned the Lord for His forgiveness and mercy.
(Had he heard before? The Word of God implies he had - perhaps on the road, perhaps on a distant mount.)Romans 10:17: ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi
For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

and then the thief simply saw his sin repented, and believed on the Lord Jesus and was saved. No works, no baptism, but yet chosen by God as one saved and with the Lord. The Gospel in nutshell.

May the Lord Bless
In Christ, Erchomai Kyrios

We Catholics believe in Baptism by desire, where if someone truly wanted to be baptized but was unable to do so because of the circumstances, then God will consider him baptized. This applies to the St. Dismas, the thief in question.

Catholics do not believe you can earn your way into heaven. We believe that God gives his grace to those that believe and are baptized into the faith. However, we can lose that grace through Sin. If we do so, we can be reconciled to God by his mercy through the sacrament of reconciliation and regain the state of grace, which requires a contrite and earnest confession, repentence and a suitable penance in reparation for the sins. If you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven, although you might need to spend time in purgatory being purified.

 

[paul_c]

Jesus judges us through His word, which is the Bible. Ralph

Ralphy, I know you think that Catholics don’t read the bible, but we do. Have you ever read the opening of St. John’s Gospel?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6
A man named John was sent from God.
7
He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.
8
He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.
9
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.
11
He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him.
12
But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
13
who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

 

[SHW]

Paul C You ask do I see how it works? NO! Can you explain it so I can understand what your talking about. ED

If you steal an apple from a homeless person even though you know that he has no other food, this can be a mortal sin since this deprives him of his sustenance for life. (If you are also homeless and have no food, then this may not be a mortal sin, but may instead be a venial sin; only God can judge your heart’s motives.) If you steal an apple from your neighbor’s fully-laden backyard tree, this most likely is a venial sin since this loss of one apple does not greatly affect him.

Adam and Eve ate the “fruit” and that caused all of us to “lose eternal life.” This is a “mortal sin” since God warned them that they would surely die (lose eternal life) if they ate it. Mortal sin causes us to lose eternal life. So Adam and Eve committed the first “mortal” sin since it caused them and us to lose eternal life.

An example of the “degrees” of sin in the Bible:

Matthew 7:2-5 “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

Examples of mortal sin (sins which cause us to lose eternal life) in Scripture:

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that **those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” **

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

See also: Matthew 19:16-19

There are many more Scriptural examples of “mortal” sins. Any sin which causes us to lose eternal life is a mortal sin.

Paul warned the Galatians that if they “turned away” from his preaching and instead believed that circumcision of the OT Covenant would save them, then they would lose eternal life. This is an example of “heresy” and so those who believed this heresy fell from grace and severed themselves from Christ. In order to become justified again, they had to repent and confess. They lost eternal life when they became heretics.

Galatians 5:1-7 “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Now I, Paul, say to you that** if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.** 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?”

See also: Hebrews 10:26-27

 

[Canto]

The thief did nothing to earn heaven. He simply saw who Jesus was (had he heard before? Romans 10:17: ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi
For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Estote autem factores verbi et non auditores tantum fallentes vosmetipsos.

**

Erchomai_Kyrios:
But the thief simply saw his sin repented and believed on the Lord Jesus and was saved. No works, no baptism, but chosen by God.**

Repentance is an act of faith
The thief showed his faith by trusting in Jesus
He acted on faith by stadning up for Jesus against the mockers
He publicly proclaimed the innocence of Christ - a good work
He acknowledged his own guilt etc

If he had not been crucified would not the good thief have deisred to do good works and would not he have desired to be baptised.

 

[SHW]

Which makes the point of my asking the question
The thief did nothing to earn heaven. He simply saw who Jesus was, repented and petioned the Lord for His forgiveness and mercy.
(Had he heard before? The Word of God implies he had - perhaps on the road, perhaps on a distant mount.)Romans 10:17: ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi
For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

and then the thief simply saw his sin repented, and believed on the Lord Jesus and was saved. No works, no baptism, but yet chosen by God as one saved and with the Lord. The Gospel in nutshell.

May the Lord Bless
In Christ, Erchomai Kyrios

There is the “legend” that the “good” thief was bathed in the child Jesus’ bath water when Mary and Joseph were in Egypt. Perhaps this is why he had enough graces to repent.

 

[SHW]

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Estote autem factores verbi et non auditores tantum fallentes vosmetipsos.

**

Repentance is an act of faith
The thief showed his faith by trusting in Jesus
He acted on faith by stadning up for Jesus against the mockers
He publicly proclaimed the innocence of Christ - a good work
He acknowledged his own guilt etc

If he had not been crucified would not the good thief have deisred** to do good works and would not he have desired to be baptised.

Good post!

 

[ralphy]

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Estote autem factores verbi et non auditores tantum fallentes vosmetipsos.

**

Repentance is an act of faith
The thief showed his faith by trusting in Jesus
He acted on faith by stadning up for Jesus against the mockers
He publicly proclaimed the innocence of Christ - a good work
He acknowledged his own guilt etc

If he had not been crucified would not the good thief have deisred** to do good works and would not he have desired to be baptised.Where are you getting this “desired” bit from. Don’t you think that everyone would “desire” to go to heaven, and based on what you are saying, if they desired “hard enough” or “earnestly enough”, they would go to heaven. Not very scriptural. Ralph

 

[SHW]

Where are you getting this “desired” bit from. Don’t you think that everyone would “desire” to go to heaven, and based on what you are saying, if they desired “hard enough” or “earnestly enough”, they would go to heaven. Not very scriptural. Ralph

No, not everyone desires to go to heaven. If they did, then they would obey God’s commandments, since obeying God’s commandments is a requirement in order to enter eternal life.

Matthew 19:17 "So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

 

[golfjack]

Without the shed blood of Christ, every sin is mortal in the eyes of God. The Bible says it is impossible for a believer to sin in Romans 5 and 6. Now what could this possibly mean? It is our spirits that are saved. The inward man. For a believer, it is the flesh that actually does the sinning. You see, our recreated spirits are perfect in the sight of God. When we align our souls and body to our spirit condition, then we won’t sin that much. Catholics, this is what you fail to realize.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[budgie2]

In the pocket Catechism it says that the chief means of our salvation is through the sacraments which is an outward sign of inward grace. I think there is more to salvation than purely receiving the sacraments. If so, why isn’t every priest who receives them every day perfect or totally free from sin? I’m not saying all priests are bad but some may fail at times. Even though we receive the sacraments we can still commit mortal sin so it is also partly through our own actions and obedience to God’s word.

 

[ralphy]

No, not everyone desires to go to heaven. If they did, then they would obey God’s commandments, since obeying God’s commandments is a requirement in order to enter eternal life.

Matthew 19:17 "So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

You still didn’t answer my question: where did this “desire” thing come from.? Ralph

 

[SHW]

Without the shed blood of Christ, every sin is mortal in the eyes of God. The Bible says it is impossible for a believer to sin in Romans 5 and 6. Now what could this possibly mean? It is our spirits that are saved. The inward man. For a believer, it is the flesh that actually does the sinning. You see, our recreated spirits are perfect in the sight of God. When we align our souls and body to our spirit condition, then we won’t sin that much. Catholics, this is what you fail to realize.
Peace, Golfjack

You misunderstand these Scriptures. What Paul means is that a believer “chooses to” “not sin.” It does not mean that a believer “cannot sin.” If a “believer” sins, then he is no longer a “believer.” Obedience is also called belief. Disobedience is also called unbelief. They cannot be separated.

Romans 6:15-23 "What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.
20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death.
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

If you return to sin after you have been justified/saved, then you are no longer saved. (For the wages of sin is death - loss of eternal life.) If you obey God’s commandments, then you maintain/keep your free gift of salvation from God and you inherit eternal life when you die.

 

[ralphy]

In the pocket Catechism it says that the chief means of our salvation is through the sacraments which is an outward sign of inward grace. I think there is more to salvation than purely receiving the sacraments. If so, why isn’t every priest who receives them every day perfect or totally free from sin? I’m not saying all priests are bad but some may fail at times. Even though we receive the sacraments we can still commit mortal sin so it is also partly through our own actions and obedience to God’s word.

May I suggest to you that you earnestly look into God’s word (the Bible) for the answers you are seeking. You are correct, the “catechism” does not give you the true picture of receiving salvation. Scripture will give you God’s way, the correct way. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Ralphy, I know you think that Catholics don’t read the bible, but we do. Have you ever read the opening of St. John’s Gospel?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6
A man named John was sent from God.
7
He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.
8
He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.
9
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.
11
He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him.
12
But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
13
who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
14
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

Yes I am familiar with this portion of scripture. Now I will ask you to read John 12:48, you will be judged by God’s word (the Bible), so we must follow what it says in the bible. Ralph

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where are you getting this “desired” bit from. Don’t you think that everyone would “desire” to go to heaven, and based on what you are saying, if they desired “hard enough” or “earnestly enough”, they would go to heaven. Not very scriptural. Ralph

Didn’t I recommend that you do a bit of homework on this topic previously?

From Wikipedia

Baptism of desire (Latin Baptismus Flaminis) is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian ritual, because of death, nevertheless bring about the fruits of Baptism, if their grace of conversion included an internal act of perfect love and contrition which automatically cleanses the soul of all sin. Hence, the Catechism of the Catholic Church observes, “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament” (CCC 1259).