How are we saved?

[SteveGC]

If you figure that the catholic church is entitled to interpret scripture, then I have a license to interpret scripture, for I am part of the catholic church. I am just not part of the “Roman” catholic church, as I am sure these are the people you are refering to in the above statement. When I quote from the Bible, this is not my interpretation or anyone else’s, it is the Word of God. I also know about Roman catholicism, I have been there and done that. Ralph

Ok, Ralph. Pay attention, please. You too, Ed…and golfjack:

When someone quotes from the Bible, it is ALWAYS interpretation. The only time it’s NOT interpretation is when someone asks you to read a verse for them, and you recite it for them without any intent on trying to understand what the words mean.

But that’s rarely how people use Scripture, and it’s certainly NOT what’s going on in these CAF threads. What’s going on, rather, is that you all are quoting Scripture to support or defend doctrinal positions. And it is THOSE doctrinal positions that are PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONS of the Scripture!

And NO SIR. You do NOT have ANY authority to do that. You have NO authority to discern truths from Scripture on your own. And it’s NOT because you are lesser people, or lesser Christians than anyone else. No lay Catholic has the right to do this either, but it also isn’t because we’re lesser individuals. Rather, it’s for all of our PROTECTION. We’re trying to make you understand that it’s a known, proven fact that trying to discern truths from Scripture by yourself, or trying to “validate” what someone else teaches you from Scripture, by yourself - without proper, authoritative formation of your intellect and understanding - results in the severe fracturing and disembodiment of the Body of Christ. It results in one break-off denomination after another, after another. This leaves everyone involved UNprotected…highly (and dangerously) vulnerable to false teaching, and improper guidance along your walk in faith.

In fact, the truth of the matter is that ALL Christians learn from humans. We ALL do. No one has picked up a Bible on their own and discerned truth. We all learn from humans first (the originating human being Christ’s human nature Himself), and if we’re learning from humans who are not protected by the Spirit of God, which means they are not descended directly from the successive ordination which originated from the 12, then you put yourself in a perilous spiritual position.

And that’s the bottom line…

 

[EdOsiecki]

Did you receive the imposition of hands through Apostolic succession? Why does scriptures tell us of imposition of hands if we are all allowed to assume an authority in the Church? Show us the scriptures of any one individual that ordains themself to be an authority.

We are all called to a royal priesthood to tell of Christ, we are not all called to ordain ourselves to make eccumenical decisions.

You say the Church cannot interpret scriptures correctly, but you can? Can you not see the arrogance in that statement? Show us the scriptures that grant any individual had infallibility with interpretation?

Hi PS1, Ed says the laying of hands need not be by Apostolic succession, Ananias wasn’t an apostle. In fact Paul an apotle got the Holy Spirit through him. The infallibility dogma of the Pope dogma was not proclaimed until the Vatican Council I in 1870. Why wasn’t something that important proclaimed earlier? ED

 

[paul_c]

God speaks to me through His word, and I am directed by the Holy Spirit. Ralph

How can you prove to anyone that the Holy Spirit is directing you in particular to the truth? . After all, Charles Manson and Jim Jones claimed the same thing, didn’t they and we all know how that turned out. This is burlesquing it a bit, but honestly, you have no credentials at all, do you? Why should we put any credence in what you are saying if the best you can offer is the above quote. After all, you are asking us to risk our souls by following your lead, aren’t you?

In contrast, lets review the Catholic church’s credentials. It was founded by Jesus , who put St. Peter in charge when he returned to heaven. For 2000 years, it has brought people to the truth with reason and power to the point where there are over 1B Catholics worldwide. Its doctrines are well documented back to the apostles. There are many miracles to demonstrate the truth, even in this century, with the dancing of the Sun at Fatima and Padre Pio’s stigmata. Its priests and religious are willing to give up their earthly lives to bring the truth to the people. I’m sure others on this board could easily enhance this list

 

[paul_c]

Hi PS1, Ed says the laying of hands need not be by Apostolic succession, Ananias wasn’t an apostle. In fact Paul an apotle got the Holy Spirit through him. The infallibility dogma of the Pope dogma was not proclaimed until the Vatican Council I in 1870. Why wasn’t something that important proclaimed earlier? ED

Frankly , Ed, who are you to proclainm that the laying on of hands need not be by Apostolic succession. How are you so bold to know the role of Ananias. How do you know he wasn’t a bishop, appointed by one of the apostles to take care of Damascus?

As for papal infallability, the dogma was simply stated in 1870 in answer to a question of the times.

 

[paul_c]

I did a small search on apostolic succession and came across this article in National Catholic Reporter, passing the baton ncronline.org/node/1862. The main contention I have with laying of hands, Eucharist Catholic only, baby baptism, baptism to receive HS, and other dogma is the apparent necessity of human interaction.

Please just let me make a point if you will bear with me so I can out line it.

The seventy elders Numbers 11:16
16 So the LORD said to Moses: “Gather to Me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them; bring them to the tabernacle of meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone.

So Mosses does as the LORD commands but there is an apparent problem.

24 So Moses went out and told the people the words of the LORD, and he gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people and placed them around the tabernacle. 25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again.**
26 But two men had remained in the camp: the name of one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad. And the Spirit rested upon them.** Now they were among those listed, but who had not gone out to the tabernacle; yet they prophesied in the camp. 27 And a young man ran and told Moses, and said, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.”
28 So Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ assistant, one of his choice men, answered and said, “Moses my lord, forbid them!”
29 Then Moses said to him, “Are you zealous for my sake? Oh, that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them!” 30 And Moses returned to the camp, he and the elders of Israel.

The text says that 70 were gathered around the tabernacle. All received the Spirit but 2 were not Eldad, and Medad, but it says they were listed. So I dont know how 70 could be at the tabernacle and 2 still be listed but not present but that’s the indication.
It makes no difference in my point that the HS and the LORD are not entirely limited to the actions and choices of men. You can see that Joshua apposed the LORDs selection, the reason can only be explained because they did not fit the prescribed recipe. Mosses accepted it and they were received. In fact Mosses desire was that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them! “all”
My point is that the RCC operates under the presumption that it, like Mosses did, make the selection, but errors like Joshua did and refuses to acknowledge that the LORD and Spirit are really the ones that make the choice.

We see a similar case in the NT
Mark 5:25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years, 26 and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment. 28 For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.”
29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?”
31 But His disciples said to Him, “You see the multitude thronging You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’”
32 And He looked around to see her who had done this thing. 33 But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. 34 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction.”

I can only conclude from this story that the Father, HS, and the ministry “words” of Jesus were at work in this woman.

Notice how he immediately looked. He did not prescribe this movement of the power but He knows that the Father and HS had. Then when she presents herself He did not rebuke her, He embraced her by calling her Daughter. Your faith has made you well. Jesus is not dogmatic just as Mosses was not, but rather both recognized and embraced the work of the Father and Spirit. I would encourage you to remember these stories next time you met someone that does not meet your recipe. Just as Mosses said “Are you zealous for my sake” … are you zealous for the sake of your church or are you zealous for the LORD. Both Jesus and Mosses were zealous for the LORD not themselves.
I like this verse which is also found in Numbers 11:23 And the LORD said to Moses, “Has the LORD’s arm been shortened?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

You know, Tukfryer, you seem to thing that Catholicism takes away from man’s ability to interact with God directly. Nothing could be further from the truth. the Church teaches us how to find God. There are so many great Catholic mystics and contemplatives who can show you how to experience the mystical, spiritual God. We’re not trying to hold any one back. We’re trying to help you enhance your chances of experiencing God personally. Unfortunately, you and some of your brethren on this site think you are better off on your own.

 

[golfjack]

Ananias was directed by God to minister to Paul. That is pretty simple and not complicated like the Catholic church.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[EdOsiecki]

Ok, Ralph. Pay attention, please. You too, Ed…and golfjack:

When someone quotes from the Bible, it is ALWAYS interpretation. The only time it’s NOT interpretation is when someone asks you to read a verse for them, and you regurgitate it for them without any intent on trying to understand what the words mean.

But that’s rarely how people use Scripture, and it’s certainly NOT what’s going on in these CAF threads. What’s going on, rather, is that you all are quoting Scripture to support or defend doctrinal positions. And it is THOSE doctrinal positions that are PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONS of the Scripture!

And NO SIR. You do NOT have ANY authority to do that. You have NO authority to discern truths from Scripture on your own. And it’s NOT because you are lesser people, or lesser Christians than anyone else. No lay Catholic has the right to do this either, but it also isn’t because we’re lesser individuals. Rather, it’s for all of our PROTECTION. We’re trying to make you understand that it’s a known, proven fact that trying to discern truths from Scripture by yourself, or trying to “validate” what someone else teaches you from Scripture, by yourself - without proper, authoritative formation of your intellect and understanding - results in the severe fracturing and disembodiment of the Body of Christ. It results in one break-off denomination after another, after another. This leaves everyone involved UNprotected…highly (and dangerously) vulnerable to false teaching, and improper guidance along your walk in faith.

In fact, the truth of the matter is that ALL Christians learn from humans. We ALL do. No one has picked up a Bible on their own and discerned truth. We all learn from humans first (the originating human being Christ’s human nature Himself), and if we’re learning from humans who are not protected by the Spirit of God, which means they are not descended directly from the successive ordination which originated from the 12, then you put yourself in a perilous spiritual position.

And that’s the bottom line…

Hi SteveGC Here’s my problem with you and some of the other Roman Catholics. Jesus said in Mat 28:19 go make DISCIPLES of all nations. That chain of DISCIPLES continues to this day. It doesn’t take qualified, infallible popes to teach the SIMPLE gospel to make a DISCIPLE, precicely as Jesus states in Mark 16:15-16 for one to be saved. Once a DISCIPLE gets saved,(only by the BLOOD not by water) the Holy Spirit (which is the third part of the Trinity that you discount completly) takes over and in Jh16:13 HE (person) guides, Isa 40:13 HE teaches, 1Thes 1:5 HE convicts, 1Pet.1:2 HE sanctifies, Acts 8:29 HE speaks, Eph 4:30 HE grieves, Acts1:8 HE gives power, Rom 8:27 HE searches the hearts, Acts 16:7 HE protects, Jn 4:24 HE allows to worship God in Spirit and Truth, 2Cor 3:17 HE liberates, 1Cor 2:16 HE gives us the mind of Christ and Rom 8:11 HE will raise all of His DISCIPLES in the last day. WOW !! YOU SEE !! ( or maybe you don’t see) The DISCIPLES are the church NOT some organized religious body who claims to be the church. If Jesus wanted an organized religious body, He would have started one, like it was done in the Old T. The priests were even told what to wear. Now, what you claim to be the Roman Catholic church full of authority, never even existed in the book of Acts. Peter started a Jewish church. Later when Peter went to rome, he and all the Jews where Kicked out of Rome by Claudius per Acts18:2 For me! I would rather be taught by the Holy Spirit than by an organization that waited 1800 years to claim its self to be infallible. God Bless ED

 

[EdOsiecki]

Does the Bible speak of a baptism other than water baptism? Let’s look at Acts 8:5, 12: 5. Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them… 12. But when they believed Philip preaching the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and woman.

Were these Samaritans saved? According to Jesus they were. He said, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned ( Mark 16:15, 16).

Therefore, these scriptures in Acts 8:5 and 12 help us to see that if you were saved, you had experienced the working of the Holy Spirit in your life, but have not actually received the infilling of the Holy Ghost. For in these scriptures, we see that the early church believed the Holy Ghost is an experience subsequent to or following salvation.

Has anyone here been filled with the Holy Spirit with the evedence of speaking in tongues?

  Peace,   Golfjack

Golfjack this is ED. I think the Magesterium would say speaking in tongues what’s that?

 

[EdOsiecki]

Frankly , Ed, who are you to proclainm that the laying on of hands need not be by Apostolic succession. How are you so bold to know the role of Ananias. How do you know he wasn’t a bishop, appointed by one of the apostles to take care of Damascus?

As for papal infallability, the dogma was simply stated in 1870 in answer to a question of the times.

Show me in Scripture where it speaks about Apostolic SUCCESSION? Infallibility was proclaimed a dogma in 1870 Vatican Council 1

 

[tukfryer]

Ananias was directed by God to minister to Paul. That is pretty simple and not complicated like the Catholic church.

   Peace,   Golfjack

To add more clarity Ananias was directed by the risen Jesus to…“see bold”.

10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

Its seems clear that the Lord gave Paul a vision about Ananias and the Lord call him to fulfill this vision. The Lord does not say to go lay hands on him that he might receive sight and the HS. Thats what Ananias says.

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,** who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit**.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

There are more problems for the baptism and laying of hands the text is not clear as to when Paul received the HS. I would think that if Paul was praying and receiving a vision the HS was already working in Paul. Ananias was the last to know and even protested to the Lord. Its clear that Paul has already been called and chosen “see bold below” The Lord call him to fulfill the vision notice the Lord only indicates the laying of hands to fulfill the vision, and recieve his sight. Adding more than is written is easy to do when you read with preconceived notions. Some will say that Peter was told "“Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” as an indication that Ananias would be doing the telling. Well I see Ananias being told what to do not Paul. Paul was being told in the vision by the HS before Ananias was even TOLD to …“Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine”. The Lord closes with Ananias. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake. No room here for Ananias doing any telling or teaching.
In conclusion Ananias is only fulfilling the vision given to Paul from the Lord. Of course the RCC wants to give Ananias the leading roll here and get all tangled up in the laying of hands and baptism. The mysteries of God Paul C.

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

 

[EdOsiecki]

Ralph and golfjack can I get an AMEN for my reply on post 637?

 

[EdOsiecki]

You know, Tukfryer, you seem to thing that Catholicism takes away from man’s ability to interact with God directly. Nothing could be further from the truth. the Church teaches us how to find God. There are so many great Catholic mystics and contemplatives who can show you how to experience the mystical, spiritual God. We’re not trying to hold any one back. We’re trying to help you enhance your chances of experiencing God personally. Unfortunately, you and some of your brethren on this site think you are better off on your own.

PaulC, This is ED I once was where you are now. But your not where I am now. Saved by grace, washed in the Blood of Jesus. Free from bondage to a Roman Catholic church, so how can you tell me about experiencing God personally? It’s being said The Roman Catholic church keeps one in bondage from the cradle ( water baptism, Sacraments, indulgences, confession etc.etc. then the last rites) to the grave. And then doing some time in purgatory. Is that the way we are supposed to personally experience God?

 

[Canto]

It doesn’t take qualified, infallible popes to teach the SIMPLE gospel to make a DISCIPLE, precicely as Jesus states in Mark 16:15-16 for one to be saved.

If its that easy why (bearing in mind we need to be baptised to be saved so its not some little issue) do some say water baptism, some say no water, some say a little water, some say full imersion, some say its all symbolic, some say don’t even need to bother.

Why do some say you can’t lose your salvation (OSAS) and some say you can?

Why do some say you can’t drink aclohol and some say you (responsibly) can?

****Once a DISCIPLE gets saved,(only by the BLOOD not by water) the Holy Spirit (which is the third part of the Trinity that you discount completly) takes over and in Jh16:13 HE (person) guides, Isa 40:13 HE teaches, 1Thes 1:5 HE convicts, 1Pet.1:2 HE sanctifies, Acts 8:29 HE speaks, Eph 4:30 HE grieves, Acts1:8 HE gives power, Rom 8:27 HE searches the hearts, Acts 16:7 HE protects, Jn 4:24 HE allows to worship God in Spirit and Truth, 2Cor 3:17 HE liberates, 1Cor 2:16 HE gives us the mind of Christ and Rom 8:11 HE will raise all of His DISCIPLES in the last day. WOW !! YOU SEE !! ( or maybe you don’t see)

See above remarks
Surely all those claim the Holy Spirit is guiding them
Is He guiding all of them or are some mistaken
How do we know who is right and who is wrong

btw the Roman Church is the Catholic Church in Rome
The Catholic (universal) Church is the Bishops and their flock in union with the Pope (the Bishop of Rome) appointed by Christ.

“Those who belong to God and Jesus Christ ally themselves with the bishop.”

– Ignatius, Saint, Bishop of Antioch, martyr, and disciple of John; writing to the Philadelphians (Philad, iii, 2) circa A.D. 100.

“You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

At the Council of Rome Pope St Damascus right after officially decreeing the 27 books of the New Testament had this to say…

"… Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament. Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Saviour, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

 

[SteveGC]

Ralph and golfjack can I get an AMEN for my reply on post 637?

What are we, in highschool now? Can I get an Amen?? Really, Ed?

How about we skip the “amen”, Ed…and give you a response that might someday enable you to see the light…

Hi SteveGC Here’s my problem with you and some of the other Roman Catholics. Jesus said in Mat 28:19 go make DISCIPLES of all nations.

Who did Jesus say that to, Ed? Let’s start there. Notice Jesus never commands just anybody, any believer, to go out and make disciples. Jesus had plenty of encounters with believers, Ed. Why did He never once instruct them to do what He instructed the apostles to do? Do you not find that intriguing? I also notice you didn’t want to talk about the second half of Matt 28:19, “baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. Notice that this is a commission to BAPTIZE and TEACH. This was the SPECIFIC GIFT of the Holy Spirit given to the apostles Ed…not you.
Ed:

That chain of DISCIPLES continues to this day.

Show me biblically this “chain” of yours. I can show you four generations of apostolic succession, in just one verse, Ed. And I can show you numerous occasions of the laying on of hands as the instrument by which other specific men are granted apostolic authority.
Ed:

It doesn’t take qualified, infallible popes to teach the SIMPLE gospel to make a DISCIPLE,

I beg to differ. You are living proof of that, my friend. Ed, the gospel is only “simple” to you because you have bought into a watered-down version of Christianity, an easy-believism that leads so many astray. It’s a “just believe, and you’re covered” gospel for you…and it’s false, my friend. No wonder you claim it’s “simple”. I would too if I abandoned Christ’s Church for the realm of partial truth.
Ed:

precicely as Jesus states in Mark 16:15-16 for one to be saved.

Hmm…and WHO exactly was Jesus stating this to, Ed? Masses of believers?? Or a small number of specific, “breathed on” men? Well, at least it seems you now agree that baptism is required for salvation, because that’s also part of Mk 16: 15-16. Glad to see you’ve come around to Church teaching finally.
Ed:

Once a DISCIPLE gets saved,(only by the BLOOD not by water)

Oh well, guess you blew off half of Mk 16:15-16 after all.
Ed:

the Holy Spirit (which is the third part of the Trinity that you discount completly)

Careful, my friend. NEVER presume to think you can TEACH a devout Catholic about the Trinity. And you insult me by suggesting I discount the Spirit of God, without whom I cannot have grace, nor faith, nor charity or obedience, eternal life. So, check yourself, sir - lest I accuse you of discounting God.
Ed:

takes over and in Jh16:13 HE (person) guides…

Jesus was talking to the apostles, Ed. Not you. Catching on now?
Ed:

Isa 40:13 HE teaches…

No. This verse is NOT saying that. That’s a nice try though, Ed. Verse 13 is a follow on from verse 12, which is touching on the immeasurable greatness of God, reminding us that He is all powerful, all knowing…and no one teaches HIM.
Ed:

1Thes 1:5 HE convicts, 1Pet.1:2 HE sanctifies, Acts 8:29 HE speaks, Eph 4:30 HE grieves, Rom 8:27 HE searches the hearts, Jn 4:24 HE allows to worship God in Spirit and Truth, 2Cor 3:17 HE liberates, Rom 8:11 HE will raise all of His DISCIPLES in the last day.

Well lookie here, I can give you an Amen, afterall. Amen, Ed. How very Catholic of you to recognize these particular characteristics of the Spirit.
Ed:

Acts1:8 HE gives power, Acts 16:7 HE protects…

Hmm. Well, yes…in a certain sense, those indwelt with the Spirit are empowered and protected (primarily against sin)…but in THOSE particular verses, the Spirit gives power and protection to the apostles, not you, Ed. The specifc “power” in Acts 1 is full knowledge of truth, and the protection to forever guard it from error.
Ed:

1Cor 2:16 HE gives us the mind of Christ.

Do you have the full mind of Christ, Ed? Do you know the fullness of what this verse means? Do you think because you love and believe in Christ, that you now have full knowledge of Truth? Surely you are not so arrogant?
Ed:

WOW !! YOU SEE !! ( or maybe you don’t see) The DISCIPLES are the church NOT some organized religious body who claims to be the church.

All baptized believers are Catholic, Ed. Some just don’t recognize it, like yourself. What’s wrong with being “organized”, anyway? The Apostles certainly seemed to have an “organization” about them, no? Or did you throw that word in there to make it sound “man-made”? Shame on you, Ed.
Ed:

If Jesus wanted an organized religious body, He would have started one…

He wanted to, and He did.
Ed:

like it was done in the Old T.

Well, did Jesus come to abolish the law? Things don’t go away, Ed…they just get reformed and redefined from the old to the new.
Ed:

Now, what you claim to be the Roman Catholic church full of authority, never even existed in the book of Acts.

It WAS the Church in all of Acts. It wasn’t yet in Rome, and it wasn’t officially titled “Catholic” yet…but it was ALL of Acts, my friend.
Ed:

For me! I would rather be taught by the Holy Spirit than by an organization that waited 1800 years to claim its self to be infallible. God Bless ED

Well, atleast you don’t let measely things like “facts” get in your way. Amen, brother.

 

[Canto]

****The DISCIPLES are the church NOT some organized religious body who claims to be the church. If Jesus wanted an organized religious body, He would have started one, like it was done in the Old T.

Hebrews 7:23 And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue

They were not suffered to continues so others succeded them - succesion

If there’s no organised Church why “desire the office of a bishop?” 1 Timothy 3:1 “with the bishops and deacons” why? Philippians’ 1:1 And why do we need to “be subject to the presbyters.” 1 Peter 5:5 And how come “they had ordained to them presbyters in every church.” Acts:14:23:

Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has placed you bishops, to rule/shepherd the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Ephesians 2:20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: 21 In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord…3:5 Which in other generations was not known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit:

Matt. 18:18 – Bind and loose powers – did this end when the last apostle passed way? And how come Peter Get the keys?

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown. Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately. 2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands. 2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry. We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop. 2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles. Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

Partly from scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

 

[paul_c]

PaulC, This is ED I once was where you are now. But your not where I am now. Saved by grace, washed in the Blood of Jesus. Free from bondage to a Roman Catholic church, so how can you tell me about experiencing God personally? It’s being said The Roman Catholic church keeps one in bondage from the cradle ( water baptism, Sacraments, indulgences, confession etc.etc. then the last rites) to the grave. And then doing some time in purgatory. Is that the way we are supposed to personally experience God?

Ed, you clearly don’t have a clue where I am now. The church doesn’t bind you, it teaches you (if you are willing to learn) and provides the sacraments that bring salvation. If you left Catholicism, then you never understood it, of that I am convinced.

 

[paul_c]

Hi SteveGC Here’s my problem with you and some of the other Roman Catholics. Jesus said in Mat 28:19 go make DISCIPLES of all nations. That chain of DISCIPLES continues to this day. It doesn’t take qualified, infallible popes to teach the SIMPLE gospel to make a DISCIPLE, precicely as Jesus states in Mark 16:15-16 for one to be saved. Once a DISCIPLE gets saved,(only by the BLOOD not by water) the Holy Spirit (which is the third part of the Trinity that you discount completly) takes over and in Jh16:13 HE (person) guides, Isa 40:13 HE teaches, 1Thes 1:5 HE convicts, 1Pet.1:2 HE sanctifies, Acts 8:29 HE speaks, Eph 4:30 HE grieves, Acts1:8 HE gives power, Rom 8:27 HE searches the hearts, Acts 16:7 HE protects, Jn 4:24 HE allows to worship God in Spirit and Truth, 2Cor 3:17 HE liberates, 1Cor 2:16 HE gives us the mind of Christ and Rom 8:11 HE will raise all of His DISCIPLES in the last day. WOW !! YOU SEE !! ( or maybe you don’t see) The DISCIPLES are the church NOT some organized religious body who claims to be the church. If Jesus wanted an organized religious body, He would have started one, like it was done in the Old T. The priests were even told what to wear. Now, what you claim to be the Roman Catholic church full of authority, never even existed in the book of Acts. Peter started a Jewish church. Later when Peter went to rome, he and all the Jews where Kicked out of Rome by Claudius per Acts18:2 For me! I would rather be taught by the Holy Spirit than by an organization that waited 1800 years to claim its self to be infallible. God Bless ED

Ed, the Catholic Church merely tries to help you find the truth and the truth is not always what we want it to be. Just because you want God to save you for the simple fact that you believe in him, does not mean that God will do that. In fact, in Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus point blank, “what does it take to gain eternal life”. Did Jesus say, just have faith in me? No, he said follow the commandments, and when pressed further, he said if you want to be perfect, give away all you own and follow me… In Matthew 25, he describes the final judgement and what is the criteria that he used to distinguished between the saved and condemned? It was whether they were merciful to their less fortunate brothers. You see, you need to demonstrate your faith though what you do. Otherwise its just meaningless words. As Paul said in 1cor 13, If you have Faith enough to move mountains, but don’t have love, you are nothing. and St James echoes this in James 2,24 : Faith without works is Dead.

You say you don’t need the church to help you get to heaven, but your words demonstrate that you clearly do. You are deluding yourself into believing that Faith alone is enough and that you have no personal responsibility for your salvation. Further, you seem to be on these pages for self assurance, asking for “Amens” from your fellow protestants. The reason to be on these pages should be to learn the truth. That’s why we are here, to give CATHOLIC ANSWERS. Please take that to heart.

 

[golfjack]

Ed, I will give you an AMEN, AMEN, AND AMEN. Keep on preaching Brother. Remember, we are the head and not the tail.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[davidv]

Ed, I will give you an AMEN, AMEN, AND AMEN. Keep on preaching Brother. Remember, we are the head and not the tail.

Peace, Golfjack

Christ is the Head, not you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christ is the Head, not you.

and