How are we saved?

[paul_c]

Thanks Steve for your reply. Here’s where we differ. I believe that when a person believes on Jesus, that person then becomes “born again”. Then when baptized, it’s then an outward sign of an inward reality that came by grace throught faith. That’s why John says his baptism is of repentance. When that person confesses his/her sins, they are symbolically washed away. (not forgiven it takes Jesus’ blood to forgive them) Or as some say, water baptism is an entrance to the church of God, to a new life, died , burried with Jesus etc… Now as I understand it in Catholicism, a person becomes “born again” through water baptism and receives the Holy Spirit. But isn’t God showing us in Acts 8:12 that isn’t so.Those people believed in Jesus, were water baptized but yet no Holy Spirit, until Peter and John came down and laid hands, prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit. That’s the Power that Jesus spoke about in Acts.1:8. Now getting back to Paul and Ananias, after Paul got up, because he was weak and hungry he sat down to eat. He was in a house, no water to be submerged in to be baptized. Now when you compare his account in Acts 22:16 “now what are you waiting for, Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away etc.” That statement fits better here, after spending a few days with desciples in Damascus who told him about water baptism. And not Ananias telling a hungry weak man to be baptized that he knows nothing about. When Paul is told that he will receive his sight and be FILLED with the Holy Sprit, I take that to mean he was healed and FILLED baptized in the Holy Spirit. The word FILLED appears for the first time after Pentacost Acts.4:8 I know that we are splitting hairs over which baptism, but it’s a very crucial point. It all stems from interpretation of Jh 3:5. I would very much like to discuss that with you, verse by verse . Thanks love yah in Christ Ed

No, God is not showing us in Acts8:12 that water baptism isn’t needed for the reception of the Holy Spirit. Afterall, those people were baptized. However, in Acts 10: 44- 48
Cornelius and his household recieved the holy spirit prior to being baptized and without the laying of hands, yet Peter still had them baptized.
While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit came down on all the listeners. Jewish believers who had accompanied Peter were all astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit should be poured out on gentiles too, Since they could hear them speaking strange languages and proclaiming the greatness of God. Peter himself then said, ‘Could anyone refuse the water of baptism to these people, now they have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’ He then gave orders for them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterwards they begged him to stay on for some days.

So what are we to make of this? Does it mean that water baptism has no effect? If so, why did Peter have them baptized? Perhaps it is because of John 3:5
Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit;

This is the section of the catechism that refers to baptism: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm

for your convenience, here is the section on Baptism in the church:

Baptism in the Church

1226 From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans. Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer “was baptized at once, with all his family.”

1227 According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ’s death, is buried with him, and rises with him:

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
The baptized have “put on Christ.” Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.

1228 Hence Baptism is a bath of water in which the “imperishable seed” of the Word of God produces its life-giving effect. St. Augustine says of Baptism: “The word is brought to the material element, and it becomes a sacrament.”

This is what we believe is the result of baptism, again from the catechism: (continued)

 

[paul_c]

VII. THE GRACE OF BAPTISM

1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

“A new creature”

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”

1268 The baptized have become “living stones” to be “built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood.” By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light.” Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to “obey and submit” to the Church’s leaders, holding them in respect and affection. Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.

1270 “Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church” and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship. The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) “for the day of redemption.” “Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life.” The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life “marked with the sign of faith,” with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Ed,
Just saying something does not prove that it is right. There clearly are two distinct actions in Acts 9. The laying on of hands and then, after Saul was cured and GOT UP, he was baptized. Baptism has always been required for entry into the church.

Luke 3:21-22 says that when Jesus was baptized, the holy spirit descended on him in bodily form. What could be more clear than that. John 1:32 says the same thing. Jesus was baptized and then the spirit came down on him. This demonstrates the clear linkage between baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit in a very visable way.

Why doesn’t Acts 2:38 demonstrate the linkage between Baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit? It says it very clearly:
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit

You are right that in Acts 8:12, an additional step was required AFTER water baptism to recieve the Holy Spirit. I’ll be honest and say that it is unclear to me why that was required in this specific case. Was it because the baptism formula used by Philip was insufficient? Was it because the Lord wanted Peter to be involved in this specific case? I simply don’t know. Perhaps others can answer that. But it is clear that they needed to be Baptized as well. Scripture is clear that they were baptized. Correct?

You are right also that in Matt 3:11, there is no mention of Baptizing in the name of the Father, son and Holy spirit. I was trying to point out the difference in the baptizing formula used by Christians and by John. Clearly John’s formula was insufficient to confer the holy spirit, as he readily admits.

Hi Paul, I wrote and answered most of what’s being discussed here on post 985 with Steve. However; Acts 8:12 is not an isolated case. The same thing occurs in Acts.19:3-6 These people were water baptized but yet no Holy Spirit, until Paul laid hands on them and prayed for them to receive Him (Holy Spirit). In Acts 10:44-45 Cornelius and his relatives and friends received the Holy Spirit just by believing what Peter preached about Jesus. They were THEN water baptized, not to receive the Holy Spirit but as you say per Mark 16:16 for entry into the church of God, some say, it’s the outward sign of an inward reality, or dying, buried, with Christ into a new life etc… When a person repents, confesses his/her sins water baptism symbolically washes away sins (but not forgives them, it’s only the Blood of Jesus that forgives the sins). If your sins are not forgiven, it does not matter how many times one is baptized, you are still alienated from God. love yah in Christ Ed

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul, I wrote and answered most of what’s being discussed here on post 985 with Steve. However; Acts 8:12 is not an isolated case. The same thing occurs in Acts.19:3-6 These people were water baptized but yet no Holy Spirit, until Paul laid hands on them and prayed for them to receive Him (Holy Spirit). In Acts 10:44-45 Cornelius and his relatives and friends received the Holy Spirit just by believing what Peter preached about Jesus. They were THEN water baptized, not to receive the Holy Spirit but as you say per Mark 16:16 for entry into the church of God, some say, it’s the outward sign of an inward reality, or dying, buried, with Christ into a new life etc… When a person repents, confesses his/her sins water baptism symbolically washes away sins (but not forgives them, it’s only the Blood of Jesus that forgives the sins). If your sins are not forgiven, it does not matter how many times one is baptized, you are still alienated from God. love yah in Christ Ed

Well, that’s not what we catholic believe. See the post above.

 

[ralphy]

paul_c:
This catechism stuff is from man, get into the word. Ralph

 

[paul_c]

This catechism stuff is from man, get into the word. Ralph

Ralph, if you spent 5 minutes reading the catechism, you would see its based on scripture.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Well, that’s not what we catholic believe. See the post above.

Paul. I read all of what you post on 986 & 987 from the Catholic Catechism concerning water baptism but nowhere on either of those posts does it mention the most important element. That is The BLOOD of Jesus which washes away all our sins. Here’s what the Bible states: Rom 3:25,“God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His BLOOD“.------Rom. 5:9, “Since we have now been justified by His BLOOD etc.”------Eph.2:13, “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the BLOOD of Christ.”------ Col 1:20” and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His BLOOD shed on the cross.”------ Heb. 9:12,”He (Jesus) did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own BLOOD.”------Heb. 9:22, “----WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO FORGINESS.”------Heb.12:24, “To Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled BLOOD that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”------Heb13:12,”And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through His own BLOOD.“ ------Peter the first Pope, 1 Pet.1:2”-----through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His BLOOD”.------1John 1:7,“and the BLOOD of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from ALL sin”.------ Rev. 1:5, “ To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His BLOOD”. There are many more, so why is it that nothing is mentioned about the BLOOD of Jesus which is the element that takes away all sins? Think about it. Love yah in Christ Ed.

 

[Tanner9188]

So you subscribe to a position that says that the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ had no effect on the way that God saves?

Saving grace absolutely has merit. Without it, no one would be saved. And yes, people sin, but God in his mercy has provided a way to regain grace lost through sin.- the sacrament of reconciliation I described above.

Live is a journey toward or away from God. If you are going toward God, you are doing things to make yourself more holy: receiving the sacraments, doing works of mercy, etc.
If you are going away from God, you do the opposite. If you do nothing, you will not achieve heaven. You need to actually love to get there. That is the whole message of Jesus Christ in a nutshell: Love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. As Jesus said, that sums up the commandments and the prophets.

Hi Paul,

You said that baptism removes sin, which means it is saving grace because without sin we are not guilty before God; therefore if we can loose that “saving” grace, then it is no longer grace or unmerited favor…right? If you can loose unmerited favor, then it was never grace or meritorious to begin with…that’s all I’m saying…hope you see the logic.

I agree with your last 2 sentences; for this is the way God saved in both the OT and the NT.

Blessings!

 

[ralphy]

Ralph, if you spent 5 minutes reading the catechism, you would see its based on scripture.

Why do you have the cathechism. Ralph

 

[davidv]

This catechism stuff is from man, get into the word. Ralph

I think you need to prove that claim. Until you do, you are in error.

 

[ralphy]

Paul. I read all of what you post on 986 & 987 from the Catholic Catechism concerning water baptism but nowhere on either of those posts does it mention the most important element. That is The BLOOD of Jesus which washes away all our sins. Here’s what the Bible states: Rom 3:25,“God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His BLOOD“.------Rom. 5:9, “Since we have now been justified by His BLOOD etc.”------Eph.2:13, “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the BLOOD of Christ.”------ Col 1:20” and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His BLOOD shed on the cross.”------ Heb. 9:12,”He (Jesus) did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own BLOOD.”------Heb. 9:22, “----WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO FORGINESS.”------Heb.12:24, “To Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled BLOOD that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”------Heb13:12,”And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through His own BLOOD.“ ------Peter the first Pope, 1 Pet.1:2”-----through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His BLOOD”.------1John 1:7,“and the BLOOD of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from ALL sin”.------ Rev. 1:5, “ To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His BLOOD”. There are many more, so why is it that nothing is mentioned about the BLOOD of Jesus which is the element that takes away all sins? Think about it. Love yah in Christ Ed.

I agree, without the shed blood of Christ, we have nothing, we are lost. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

I think you need to prove that claim. Until you do, you are in error.

Who wrote the catechism?. Ralph

 

[davidv]

I agree, without the shed blood of Christ, we have nothing, we are lost. Ralph

“…if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.” (1Corinthians (NAB) 13:2)

 

[Canto]

This catechism stuff is from man, get into the word. Ralph

just the written word or the oral word too

 

[John7]

1000

 

[Canto]

1000

 

[paul_c]

Why do you have the cathechism. Ralph

To explain the Catholic faith, both to Catholics and to non-Catholics

 

[paul_c]

Paul. I read all of what you post on 986 & 987 from the Catholic Catechism concerning water baptism but nowhere on either of those posts does it mention the most important element. That is The BLOOD of Jesus which washes away all our sins. Here’s what the Bible states: Rom 3:25,“God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His BLOOD“.------Rom. 5:9, “Since we have now been justified by His BLOOD etc.”------Eph.2:13, “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the BLOOD of Christ.”------ Col 1:20” and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His BLOOD shed on the cross.”------ Heb. 9:12,”He (Jesus) did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own BLOOD.”------Heb. 9:22, “----WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO FORGINESS.”------Heb.12:24, “To Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled BLOOD that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”------Heb13:12,”And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through His own BLOOD.“ ------Peter the first Pope, 1 Pet.1:2”-----through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His BLOOD”.------1John 1:7,“and the BLOOD of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from ALL sin”.------ Rev. 1:5, “ To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His BLOOD”. There are many more, so why is it that nothing is mentioned about the BLOOD of Jesus which is the element that takes away all sins? Think about it. Love yah in Christ Ed.

I didn’t copy over the whole section on Baptism but I did give you the link. Here is what you were looking for from the catechism:

Christ’s Baptism

1223 All the Old Covenant prefigurations find their fulfillment in Christ Jesus. He begins his public life after having himself baptized by St. John the Baptist in the Jordan. After his resurrection Christ gives this mission to his apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”

1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to "fulfill all righteousness."Jesus’ gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying. The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his “beloved Son.”

1225 In his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a “Baptism” with which he had to be baptized. The blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life.From then on, it is possible “to be born of water and the Spirit” in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

See where you are baptized, see where Baptism comes from, if not from the cross of Christ, from his death. There is the whole mystery: he died for you. In him you are redeemed, in him you are saved.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Does God save people in the OT the same as the NT? Explain.

The people of Old Testament times were both Hebrews and gentiles. The Hebrews were saved by a combination of faithfulness to the covenant, sorrow for their sins, repentance, and charity. Gentiles did not have the covenant and would have to have sorrow for their sins in as much as they knew them, repentance and charity.

In New Testament times we have the new and everlasting Covenant which we enter by Baptism (in all it’s forms) for the remission of sins, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and Supernatural Grace which is Christ’s life in us. This makes us have the justification of the Sonship that we have in Christ. From here in a nutshell, we must have sorrow for our sins, and the showing of the supernatural virtue of charity. How this all takes place can be quite a bit of typing.

mdcpensive1

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

You said that baptism removes sin, which means it is saving grace because without sin we are not guilty before God; therefore if we can loose that “saving” grace, then it is no longer grace or unmerited favor…right? If you can loose unmerited favor, then it was never grace or meritorious to begin with…that’s all I’m saying…hope you see the logic.

I agree with your last 2 sentences; for this is the way God saved in both the OT and the NT.

Blessings!

I’m sorry Tanner, but I think your logic is flawed. God gives you grace through faith in Baptism . However, once grace is given, its our responsiblity to use it properly and to seek holiness. Just because we can lose it, doesn’t make it any less of a gift. Lets use an analogy. If someone gave you a car and you rapped it around a tree because you drove poorly, would you then turn around and say that the car was never a gift because you no longer have it, even though it was your fault that you lost it?

Once Saved, always saved is a bankrupt theology, inconsistent with Scripture. You must persevere in your faith. Otherwise, there is no point in moral teaching.