How can an all-loving God condemn anyone to hell?

[Trident_H]

But you don’t believe that there’s any chance of you going there. You simply wouldn’t be able to function normally if you thought there may be a chance you were going to be tormented for eternity. In fact, you wouldn’t be able to function if you thought it was going to be for a week.

**** you Bradski. How would you know what I think? Of course I think I’m going there. I’m trying not to. But I don’t know how I’m going to make that case. I’m not a clean guy. I’m as bad as they come. I’m trying to give back some now. But I’ve got a mountain to climb back up. I mean I don’t have much hope most days. I’m just trying to hold it together as best I can. So don’t jump too high for joy that you’ve nailed me yet. I mean between the two of us it’s actually you who’s pretty damn sure you’re not going there. Me? I’m almost convinced of it.

There’s a guy who’s been wandering the country for the last few years. Every week or so he kidnaps a child, tortures them for days on end and then rapes and kills them. Then one day he’s walking past a church and something draws him in. He asks the priest if he could confess some sins. And he tells the priest everything. It’s like waking from a bad dream. He repents, walks outside and finds himself confronted by the father of one of the children. ‘See you in hell!’ the father screams as he shoots the man dead.

There’s another guy sitting at home, drinking. He’s got a problem. His father was a violent man and so was his father before him. Something in the genes perhaps. Or maybe violence begets violence. Things he saw, and did, in the Gulf war didn’t help.

He’s struck his wife before. Some argument which got out of hand. And there’s tension in the house tonight. An argument over money. He’s been out of work for so long. She goes to make some toast and burns it. He snaps. There’s a lot of shouting and pushing and he hits her. Drags her around and punches her. He’s beside himself. Raging. Blood pressure through the roof. And…gets hit with a heart attack. Drops dead on the kitchen floor.

According to what I’ve been reading, one of these guys is going to heaven. And one of them to hell

Is this the way it works?

No. No that’s not the way it works. Not by half.

Because no psychopath’s gonna convert just because he sees a church. I mean that would be like me telling you that all it took to convert your entire heart and soul to God would be to drive past a church. Not going to happen is it Bradski? Because you’ve been too smart for too long in this. You’ve stood there and figured you’d long ago out-thought all the deluded and weak God-fearing types. So why would you convert? You don’t play by those rules.

And neither does a psychopath.

 

[Trident_H]

:sad_yes: I hope you don’t mind If I share some previous posts in regards to forgiveness that I believe will really help here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016008&postcount=6
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016010&postcount=7
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016011&postcount=8
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016012&postcount=9
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016013&postcount=10
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13016014&postcount=11

I hope this has helped

God Bless You Trident

Thank you for reading
Josh

Thanks Josh. You’re a heavy hitter in this. You really go that extra mile. Thanks man.

 

[littlestsouls2]

Here are some pertinent quotes for the benefit of those who might accept them with faith.

“God pardons sin; but He cannot pardon the will or the determination to sin.”

• St. Alphonsus

“He desires not the death of the sinner (Ezech. 33, 11); and, as thou hast written, He does not entertain an absolute and antecedent decree of damning His creatures, but seeks to save them all, if they do not pursue perdition of their own free will. Although He permits this in his justice as being inseparable from the free will of man, it is against His inclination.”

• Our Lady to Ven. Mary of Agreda

"God does not punish for His own sake even those who have sinned against Him, for nothing can harm that divine nature.”

• St. John Chrysostom

“My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it.”

• Jesus to St. Faustina (these words are in relation to the punishments in Purgatory, but they could just as easily be applied to Hell)

“God is infinitely good; He is never the first to depart. It is His peculiar property to be ever merciful and to spare. Yes, He is my hope and my salvation.”

• St. Crescentia

"Thou art just, My Lord and Father, and most equitable are Thy judgments (Ps. 68, 137); and therefore it is right, since Thou hast made Me the Judge of the living and the dead, of the good and the bad (Act 10, 3), that I give to the good the reward of having served and followed Me, and to sinners the chastisement of their perverse obstinacy; that the just should share in My goods, and the wicked be deprived of the inheritance, which they refuse to accept.”

• Jesus addressing God the Father (taken from the revelations of Ven. Mary of Agreda)

“For terrible is the condition of an impenitent heart; I cannot penetrate it. It is not I who condemn it; it is he who wilfully repels Me.”

• Jesus to Servant of God Sr. Mary of the Trinity

“Love has taught me this loving truth, that the prodigious number of the lashes of the scourge were an alleviation for Jesus, because the shedding of so much Blood enlarged His divine Heart, which was devoured by the ardour of His love and by the desire of suffering; and although that terrible flagellation made Jesus suffer an infinite torment, it satisfied at the same time His loving affection for us. This adorable Lamb showed all His open veins to God and to man, as so many characters of love which spoke eloquently to God to appease Him, to man to touch Him. Yes, Jesus Himself told me this secret, so lovingly sorrowful, and moreover, that the hardness of heart of His executioners, present and future was at this moment His greatest pain.”

• Servant of God Sister Jeanne Benigne Gojos

“I am the God of all Mercy. I seek nothing so much as to exercise Mercy continually.”

• Jesus to Servant of God Sr. Benigna Consolata

“Consolata, you must never forget that I always am, and love to be, kind and merciful towards My creatures.”

• Jesus to Servant of God Sr. Consolata Betrone

 

[PRmerger]

But you don’t believe that there’s any chance of you going there. You simply wouldn’t be able to function normally if you thought there may be a chance you were going to be tormented for eternity. In fact, you wouldn’t be able to function if you thought it was going to be for a week.

There’s a guy who’s been wandering the country for the last few years. Every week or so he kidnaps a child, tortures them for days on end and then rapes and kills them. Then one day he’s walking past a church and something draws him in. He asks the priest if he could confess some sins. And he tells the priest everything. It’s like waking from a bad dream. He repents, walks outside and finds himself confronted by the father of one of the children. ‘See you in hell!’ the father screams as he shoots the man dead.

There’s another guy sitting at home, drinking. He’s got a problem. His father was a violent man and so was his father before him. Something in the genes perhaps. Or maybe violence begets violence. Things he saw, and did, in the Gulf war didn’t help.

He’s struck his wife before. Some argument which got out of hand. And there’s tension in the house tonight. An argument over money. He’s been out of work for so long. She goes to make some toast and burns it. He snaps. There’s a lot of shouting and pushing and he hits her. Drags her around and punches her. He’s beside himself. Raging. Blood pressure through the roof. And…gets hit with a heart attack. Drops dead on the kitchen floor.

According to what I’ve been reading, one of these guys is going to heaven. And one of them to hell

Is this the way it works?

One of them for sure is going to heaven.

And isn’t that what you’d like to see?

Isn’t there room in your paradigm, even if it’s atheistic, to consider the fact that mercy, love, forgiveness and justice allows for this? The inexpressible, sublime, magnificent love that is limned in this act is odious to you?

 

[Bradski]

One of them for sure is going to heaven.

And isn’t that what you’d like to see?

I’ve indicated what I’d like to se: some proportional punishment that is relative to the crime.But for all crimes there is simply Option A and Option B. And they couldn’t be more different.

If you think that the child rapist should receive eternal bliss and the guy who punched his wife is to receive eternal torment, then your idea of justice seem a little skewed. It might tie in with God’s idea of how things should work, but that particular God appears capricious, cruel, inhumane and unloveable.

I mean between the two of us it’s actually you who’s pretty damn sure you’re not going there. Me? I’m almost convinced of it.

Imagine that there are a couple of guys who have got it in for you. At some point they’ll come around to your place (you won’t know when) and take you to a basement somewhere. There will be literally nothing anyone will be able to do to prevent this. No-one will know you are there. There will be no chance of escape.

They are medically trained so they will make sure you will remain alive as long as they want you to. And they will begin to torture you. Taking it in turns so there is no respite. And they will continue to do this day after day. Not just for a week. Not for a month. Not even for your complete lifetime. This is going to go on for ever…

Then you are talking with some random guy on a forum and you mention, in passing, that you are almost convinced that this is going to happen. And you really, honestly expect him to believe you. Yeah. Right…

No. No that’s not the way it works. Not by half.

Because no psychopath’s gonna convert just because he sees a church. I mean that would be like me telling you that all it took to convert your entire heart and soul to God would be to drive past a church.

Trident, it was a story I made up. You aren’t meant to take it literally. But I hope that as a good Catholic you would accept the possibility of literally anyone coming to terms with their deeds and repenting them. However heinous.

I which case the man who has tortured, raped and killed hundreds of children will go to heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve indicated what I’d like to se: some proportional punishment that is relative to the crime.But for all crimes there is simply Option A and Option B. And they couldn’t be more different.

Well, that’s the problem with eternity, isn’t it, Bradski?

Do the math.

We can see that there isn’t anything that can be proportional, if you have even the most rudimentary grasp of eternity.

IOW: Let’s say we do it your way. A person who drags his wife by her hair (for burning his toast) is punished in hell for 1000 years. Then he’s let into heaven. For eternity.

That punishment, when we understand eternity, is nothing. Not even a blink of an eye, right?

Trent Horn gave an analogy:
Let’s say we’re going to Disney World. On our way in, my 10 yr old son punches my 3 yr old daughter in the face. Hard. Just because.

So I say to him: for that, son, you don’t get to go into Disney World for 5 seconds. Let’s just stay out here, and you endure this punishment for these 5 seconds.

Ok! Good! That’s it!

Let’s go in and enjoy heaven (I mean, Disney) now!

Does that solve your problem, Bradski?

Would you like it if the 10 yr old was punished for 5 seconds and then got to enjoy Disney with the rest of the family?

And remember, this analogy fails immensely when we understand eternity. 1000 years to 5 seconds is finite. A day at Disney to heaven is infinite.

 

[Bradski]

Don’t waste time on speculation.

Yet your entire post is just that.

 

[Bradski]

Well, that’s the problem with eternity, isn’t it, Bradski?

Yeah. The child rapist gets an eternity of bliss or the guy who punched his wife gets eternal torment. It obviously, and I mean really obviously, doesn’t work either way, does it.

It was fine as a means to (literally) put the fear of God into someone to make sure they behaved. But, honestly.

And this business that you have to repent before you actually die. Well, like that hasn’t got a few holes in it as well. The guy who punched his wife is beside himself with remorse the following day. He spends the rest of his life dedicated to preventing domestic violence. Well, he’s going to heaven, I’d guess. I’d certainly give him a pass.

Unless he has that heart attack while he’s hitting her. Whoops, missed out then, friend. Too late now. But, hang on, God knows what life he would have led. He knows he’s not an evil person. But rules is rules. Sorry buddy. You needed to repent in the few seconds before you died. No good being sorry after.

 

[Trident_H]

Imagine that there are a couple of guys who have got it in for you. At some point they’ll come around to your place (you won’t know when) and take you to a basement somewhere. There will be literally nothing anyone will be able to do to prevent this. No-one will know you are there. There will be no chance of escape.

They are medically trained so they will make sure you will remain alive as long as they want you to. And they will begin to torture you. Taking it in turns so there is no respite. And they will continue to do this day after day. Not just for a week. Not for a month. Not even for your complete lifetime. This is going to go on for ever…

Then you are talking with some random guy on a forum and you mention, in passing, that you are almost convinced that this is going to happen. And you really, honestly expect him to believe you. Yeah. Right…

That’s your vision of hell. That’s your play buddy. And then you put me in a staring role. And make fun of my lines. And then threaten to cancel the show.

Look man. I didn’t come here and accuse you of being either a cold-hearted bastard or a guy with a pretzel conscience. That was all you. So of course I’m a bit at odds with that. Why didn’t you just ask me what I thought? Why tell me?

Well for round two I’ll do this for you. You think I’m cool with hell? You think I’m good with going there? In a calm way? No. You’ve got me flipped right over. But then you’d know that by now if you’d taken a minute.

Ok. I feel badly for overreacting. I feel badly for swearing at you. Almost. But you have no idea the scar you’ve just peeled back for me. You have no idea what my conscience is on that score. So yes Bradski. Yes. I think I’ve got more than a fair shot of getting to hell. But I don’t think it’s an aggressive place. I think it’s passive. I think it’s the kind of thing I live with now. The self hatred. The desire to make myself disappear. To take my rotten memories and bury them in the yard.

Because Bradski I think hell is living with your guilt. Forever. Because you can’t take it back. And you can’t change it. I mean it’s maybe Ok for the guy who gets back up on his horse and learns to be a better rider. It’s Ok to make that guy a hero later. To celebrate his wins in a higher way than his losses. But for a guy like me that path’s hardly open. I don’t know how to redeem what I’ve done. I don’t feel it’s possible. So my taste of hell is real. And it’s now. So it comes as no real surprise to me that it could last forever. Because I can’t figure out a way to make it stop even now.

Trident, it was a story I made up. You aren’t meant to take it literally. But I hope that as a good Catholic you would accept the possibility of literally anyone coming to terms with their deeds and repenting them. However heinous.

I which case the man who has tortured, raped and killed hundreds of children will go to heaven.

And the answer I made up was real. I mean I don’t see that happening as a common thing. But if it does. If there is this great change of heart. Well then I guess I’m glad I’m not the guy on the throne judging. Because I’m nowhere near that good.

But I still think heaven and hell are all about compatibility. I mean if a creep has really converted in heart. If that guy’s really climbing that mountain of guilt and trying to be a better person? Well I really doubt a guy like that would honestly enter heaven anyway. Oh I think he might get an invite there. It’s possible. But I think if he’s really converted in heart he’d never feel worthy of accepting. So I don’t play those mental games. Because I don’t have that kind of faith in the simple. I don’t imagine people magically change without a reason. And if they do change? Well then I expect them to change in a straight way. I expect them to own their past. This last minute death-bed confession stuff for purely selfish reasons? Just to get into heaven? A total farce. Forget it. Not worried about rubbing shoulders with that guy in heaven. Because we’ll all be shoving each other out of the way in hell. If we even look outside ourselves long enough for that to happen. If we even notice anyone else. As self-absorbed as we’ll be in our own inner hatred.

So take your marvelous self-assurance. And your unimaginably large thinking process. And give me space. You might walk around like a real trooper and give this stuff no weight except as a source of comedy or mental recreation. You might think this is fun stuff to relax and smoke a pipe by. But some of us have a fight on our hands just to make one day connect into the next. Posture somewhere else. With the other gentlemen and dandies. Leave the real people alone.

-Trident

 

[PRmerger]

Yeah. The child rapist gets an eternity of bliss or the guy who punched his wife gets eternal torment. It obviously, and I mean really obviously, doesn’t work either way, does it.

Well, I think what we can glean from this that the idea of some other way–maybe a little bit o’hell, and then eternal bliss–doesn’t work, if one accepts that the soul is immortal.

Now, of course, we can talk about whether the soul is immortal, but we can dismiss your other paradigm, yes?

 

[Bradski]

Well for round two I’ll do this for you. You think I’m cool with hell? You think I’m good with going there? In a calm way? No. You’ve got me flipped right over.

Hey, chill out, Trident. If you are working through issues, then for what it’s worth, I hope you manage to sort them out.

And also, for what it’s worth, I don’t think that a fear of hell is in any way at all a good thing to have when one is feeling less than happy with the direction their life has taken. No-one is going to convince me that the threat of eternal punishment is the way to a stable mind set when we are often a passenger in life and we have little or no control of our thoughts and emotions.

 

[Bradski]

Well, I think what we can glean from this that the idea of some other way–maybe a little bit o’hell, and then eternal bliss–doesn’t work, if one accepts that the soul is immortal.

Of course it doesn’t work. None of it works.

Eternal torment for punching your wife and bliss for the child rapist. Please tell me that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

And also, for what it’s worth, I don’t think that a fear of hell is in any way at all a good thing to have when one is feeling less than happy with the direction their life has taken. No-one is going to convince me that the threat of eternal punishment is the way to a stable mind set when we are often a passenger in life and we have little or no control of our thoughts and emotions.

Agreed, my good Bradski…

 

[PRmerger]

Of course it doesn’t work. None of it works.

Eternal torment for punching your wife and bliss for the child rapist. Please tell me that makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, you still have the problem of what to do with the soul after death.

Do you believe that the soul can be annihilated, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses do?

(We acknowledge that you are an atheist. So you don’t believe in a soul. But you seem to be granting the existence of an afterlife for the sake of this discussion. And that presupposes that there’s someone to go there…which is the human soul).

 

[Bradski]

Well, you still have the problem of what to do with the soul after death.

Do you believe that the soul can be annihilated, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses do?

(We acknowledge that you are an atheist. So you don’t believe in a soul. But you seem to be granting the existence of an afterlife for the sake of this discussion. And that presupposes that there’s someone to go there…which is the human soul).

No, I am not granting it at all. The concept of heaven and hell is unworkable. It makes no sense. It is entirely lacking in any sort of credibility whatsoever.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I am not granting it at all. The concept of heaven and hell is unworkable. It makes no sense. It is entirely lacking in any sort of credibility whatsoever.

Well, then it’s inutile to try to provide apologia for an eternal hell, if you don’t even grant that it exists.

 

[josh987654321]

Of course it doesn’t work. None of it works.

Eternal torment for punching your wife and bliss for the child rapist. Please tell me that makes no sense whatsoever.

Like I said, I believe purgatory plays a bit of a role and I don’t believe someone so deeply in evil like that is going to instantly turn around tomorrow and repent of it and even if such was/is the case, would you prefer they didn’t and continued raping children?

The following passage I believe may help.
The Gospel of Matthew 20:1-16:

The Laborers in the Vineyard

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last."

And this following passage also plays on the same principle, it’s like a double edged sword.
The Gospel of Matthew 18:23-35:

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; 25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. 32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

Furthermore, if I am in heaven, I’m not really going to care who else is there, I am going to be so happy I am there myself and if someone who was unpleasant during my life here on earth was also there, than it wouldn’t bother me, because they wouldn’t be there unless they were no longer that person.

I would be so happy with that denarius, that I wouldn’t care if I had to work all day in the scorching heat for it.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Bradski]

Furthermore, if I am in heaven, I’m not really going to care who else is there, I am going to be so happy I am there myself and if someone who was unpleasant during my life here on earth was also there, than it wouldn’t bother me, because they wouldn’t be there unless they were no longer that person.

Josh: And you are…?
John: Hi. You probably don’t know me, but I was the one that raped and murdered your children.
Josh: Oh, hi. How are you? So nice to meet you. Have you met my wife? Hon, look who’s here. You’ll never guess!

Mmm. Doesn’t seem to work for me.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Josh: And you are…?
John: Hi. You probably don’t know me, but I was the one that raped and murdered your children.
Josh: Oh, hi. How are you? So nice to meet you. Have you met my wife? Hon, look who’s here. You’ll never guess!

Mmm. Doesn’t seem to work for me.

Josh’s wife “Oh you’re the one we have been praying for all these years”
John “I wish to thank you for your prayers, I was driven by evil thought and deeds,
until I was made aware of the errors of my ways and of the horrific harm I have caused,
I truly repented once I realised that man is not, the be all and end all, and that there is
a God who saves those who truly repent and desires forgiveness, and punishes those that love their sin.”
John’s wife “We knew that if you had our knowledge of God that you would never have done such things.”
Turning to John she says" Hon, look who’s here. You’ll never guess!"
John looks around and says “Bradski ! we prayed for you as well my friend.”
Bradski; “Mmm. You know what, this seems to work for me now.”

Would a Just God deny anyone who is genuinely repentant?
and would a Just God accept anyone who is not?

Just curious. :tiphat: