How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

[Sabda]

Animals can’t sin because they don’t have a soul.
Do you seriously think animals sin???

Animals DO have a soul. They just do not have an immortal soul. As it was stated earlier they would not be alive otherwise. No animals don’t sin.

 

[Mannyfit75]

then what we are arguing is the definition of sin. Due to the undevelped nature of a babys brain, they are NOT held accountable for their actions…(we agree on this) however the scriptures say “All unrighteousness is sin” (1 john 5:17).

There you go again with the ‘all’ again. You can’t have this belief to be 100%. If you do, you might as well add that Jesus also sinned since you say, “all unrighteousness is sin.”

All unrighteousness cannot be taken as one sole doctrine that is 100% certain.

Infants cannot commit actual sin period until they reached the level of maturity.

 

[VociMike]

The passage is speaking about Adam’s sin (cf 5:12), not individual, actual sin.

The Greek pantes hamar?n, is 2nd aorist, active, indicative (state of being) (again, cf 5:12, the identical tense, voice, and mood), and it is best translated ALL SINNED rather than all have sinned. It is also historical (constative, or complexive, a narrative), and it means EVERYONE (Mary is included in this passage), sans the stated scriptural exception of Christ.

Again, this is Adam’s sin; when Adam sinned, in God’s eyes, all sinned (Rom 5:12ff).

Ah, so now we are invoking actual guilt for Adam’s sin? Not just a “sin nature” but actual accountability for Adam’s sin? In that case, you must believe that stillborn babies go to hell. How could you not, for they are guilty of Adam’s sin, and they have not repented.

So, Protestants, does this passage actually mean that all are guilty of Adam’s sin? Not just affected by Adam’s sin, but guilty of Adam’s sin?

(BTW, I don’t accept for a minute that your interpretation is correct, either of 3:23 or 5:12, but it certainly does raise some interesting points for your theology!)

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes Babies have much to learn, but we cannot define right and wrong based on what babies know. it is not so grey, right is right and wrong is wrong. God’s nature does not change because we do or don’t know something. His nature stays the same. Sin is still sin. Luckily God’s nature also includes mercy and He is not unjust to those who do not know better.

Humanity does know what is right and wrong. In his subconsciousness a man may know good and evil. Since God has written his “will” upon man’s heart and mind."

God’s nature of course cannot change. He was always in the Beginning, and he had no end.

I truly think you are misguided with what the nature of sin is. I will pray for you that you will understand.

Not all sin are the same. There is sin that is deadly, and a sin that is not deady.

1 John Chapter 5 verse, 16-17,

*“If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.” *

 

[Alexius]

Let me turn the question around if I may. Is there anyone who believes that there is a person capable of sinning who has not sinned? (Other than Christ and, for our Catholic brethern, Mary?)

St. John the Forerunner did not sin and according to St. Athanasius, neither did St. Elias sin.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

First of all I’d like to know what Tom meant by his comment of “God said so.” Are you (Tom) saying that God said that we all have sinned? Do you really believe that God could think that even a mentally handicapped person could offend Him?

To AFH, do you believe the same thing as Tom if what I wrote is what Tom meant?

I find it hard to believe that you AllForHim would believe such a thing. You are usually very reasonable.

Hi,

Yes I do believe because God said so. I also believe God is merciful and in the age of accountability. I do believe babies and young children go to heaven. I also believe mentally handicapped people go to heaven as long as they are severe enough not to be able to understand. There are mentally handicapped people who are able to understand. I was a special ed. teachr so obviously Ive been around them. I know 2 boys in my church. 1 is autistic and the other has aspergers(I forgot spelling ) They are both totally aware of God and capable of understanding about God. Their parents have worked very hard with them.

I hope that clears things up for you. I try to look at both sides of the argument but sometimes the answer really is as simple as God said so whether we like it or not. Trust me, as a female human, there are doctrines in the bible I dont like, but I didnt make the rules but I have to follow them if I want to be more Christ-like.

 

[rbarcia]

I also believe God will not punish infants or disabled people unjustly.

**

Deuteronomy 24:16

16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
u
2 Samuel 12

22 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

**

I wonder though if there were any infants alive during Noah’s time. We know only eight were saved, and the rest of the world wicked, and punished for their wickedness.

**
1 Peter 3

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

**

Remember, God has something we do not: * foreknowledge*, seeing into the future, because He is outside time, He knows who will come to Him and who will not. He knows which infants, when grown, would be saved. (I am not saying he predestined them to be evil, only he knew in advance, and therefore can predestine the events.)

Notice, He foreknows what a person does, therefore, he predestines what happens. Foreknowledge, comes before destiny. He knew the Pharaoh in Moses time would never accept Him if given the chance, therefore He predestined His position as to show His glory. It is not the other way around.

**

Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew [first knew[/COLOR]], He also predestined*[after He foreknew, He therefore predestined]* to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Therefore God’s judgement on infants is based on His forknowledge of their future, if given the chance to fulfill their life. God not only knows the future, He knows the ‘what-if’ scenarios.

**

Matthew 11

23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

---

 

[Tom317]

First of all I’d like to know what Tom meant by his comment of “God said so.” Are you (Tom) saying that God said that we all have sinned? Do you really believe that God could think that even a mentally handicapped person could offend Him?

To AFH, do you believe the same thing as Tom if what I wrote is what Tom meant?

I find it hard to believe that you AllForHim would believe such a thing. You are usually very reasonable.

I guess youst last comment means you think I am not reasonable? That makes me so sad.

Honestly, I don’t bother getting my shorts in a knot about such things. God said that everyone sins, and while I think God has mercy upon whomever He wishes (including babies and mentally handicapped), it is not up to me to argue with God and tell Him He is wrong.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Let me turn the question around if I may. Is there anyone who believes that there is a person capable of sinning who has not sinned? (Other than Christ and, for our Catholic brethern, Mary?)

John the Baptist.

 

[christianley]

Well last I checked, Catholics also believe in origional sin.

Also:

(Romans 3:9-10) - "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one.”

(Romans 3:23) - “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

(Psalm 14:3) - “They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

(Ephesians 2:3) - All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

There are other scriptures as well that say everyone has sinned. Only Jesus (who was Fully God) did not sin.

This whole issue of original sin seems rather problematic. Jews don’t believe people carry the stain of guilt for Adam’s sin. Eastern Orthodox don’t believe that people carry the stain of guilt for Adam’s sin (and they believe what the Fathers teach!). It seems as if this is a later development in Western Christianity that didn’t exist in either Judaism or early Christianity. As for Jesus he was not just fully God, he was fully man as well. He was capable of sinning as a man, but didn’t.

 

[artist3189]

I believe the sin is original sin based on the scriptures that have been put forth already, but I also believe that a stillborn goes to heaven because God is merciful and knows other then original sin that baby did not commit an act of sin. I just cant think that that baby would go to hell. Just like aborted babies. I think they are in heaven too.

See, the thing is, that ‘YOU BELIEVE’ that stillborn babies go to heaven’, that is your belief, which is a good thought for sure, but no one KNOWS really. Scripture is unclear and therefore, the Church only says it ‘entrusts them to the Mercy of God’. The Church has never officially TAUGHT they went to hell although some theologians surmised it may be so. But that’s only what THEY BELIEVED, an opinion, like yours. See the Catechism if you have real questions, sometimes these forums may not get it right either!

 

[rbarcia]

John the Baptist.

The Bible only tells us that Christ was sinless. You cannot state this for Mary or John the Baptist.

**

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

**

John the Baptist said:

**

Matthew 3

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

**

Therefore, we can assume John may have sinned. And we know that Jesus considered John the greatest human (besides Himself) to be born.

**

Matthew 11

11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

**

 

[Marilena]

Really, how can anybody believe this? Is there anybody who actually believes that e.g. a stillborn baby has committed acts of sin?

i think with the still born you might be missing the point. the still born was still with original sin. man is still inclined to sinfulness even if we are baptized. we still sin. so the scripture, we all sin, and we all fall short of the glory of God is true.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Matthew 3 :13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

Therefore, we can assume John may have sinned. And we know that Jesus considered John the greatest human (besides Himself) to be born.

Yes it is just your assumption. Does a pious statement of needing to be baptized indicate one has sinned?

Does the Bible ever say that Mary or John actually sinned?

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
John possesed the Holy Ghost fromt he womb.

Your assumption would say that the above verse is a lie and that the Holy Ghost left John so that John could sin.

1st you have to show that the Holy Ghost left him in Scriture.

2nd you have to show where he actually sinned.

 

[rr1213]

How early are you saying that it comes?

And do you really think that the child knows that what he is doing (rebellion) is offensive to God? Does this child who is rebelling believe in God and in Jesus Christ? Does this child know that God would not be pleased with such acts if indeed the child knew that these acts were offensive to Him?

These children would not have an understanding unless you told them that it was wrong and that such acts offend God. Children in general like to think of Jesus instead of God the Father. They relate better to Jesus as Jesus came into this world as a baby. If a child old enough to understand knew that his actions could be offensive to Jesus then the child would be less likely to commit such acts.

I doubt that babies are capable of understanding about Jesus and sin and offending God.

In my experience, children prior to the age of two start to display the results of their fallen human nature. The child knows you are the boss, you tell the child “no!”, he looks directly at you, smiles, and goes ahead and does it anyway. Conscious of the consequences? No, of course not. Knowing that he is not supposed to do something but does it anyway? Yes.

 

[JoeyWarren]

In my experience, children prior to the age of two start to display the results of their fallen human nature. The child knows you are the boss, you tell the child “no!”, he looks directly at you, smiles, and goes ahead and does it anyway. Conscious of the consequences? No, of course not. Knowing that he is not supposed to do something but does it anyway? Yes.

Does not free-will come into play? Satan and his followers did not have the taint of original sin, yet they exhibited the same actions of a two year old.

 

[rr1213]

Yes. and that’s ‘yes’ to the emphasized, but is not limited to that.

Okay, in the words my 13 year old just said immediately after reading your post (she sits with me sometimes and reads along); “Can’t you figure that out for yourself? It’s common sense. We shouldn’t have to explain this… duh.”
This is just common sense to me and to my 13 year old child and to most Catholics.

Well, sorry. Apparently me and 800 million Protestants are not smart enough to figure this out. Enlighten us.

 

[rr1213]

St. John the Forerunner did not sin and according to St. Athanasius, neither did St. Elias sin.

Good gosh, there’s more other than Mary?!?!?

Who are these people and why do you think that they did not sin?

 

[rr1213]

This is getting absurd. At the time Mary through the grace of God agreed to bear Christ, was she within the classification of people who are: (1) the Second Person of theTrintity, (2) children before the age of responsibility or (3) mentally incompetent? Of course not. Since she is not within the class of known exceptions, Mary ***is ***within the category of people to whom “all have sinned” is intended to apply.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Good gosh, there’s more other than Mary?!?!?

Who are these people and why do you think that they did not sin?

A better question is needed. Do you believe that someone can not be born and live a completely sinless life? Do you think God has no power to allow one to not sin at all?