How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

[DRIVING_BEAR]

I think you all are overlooking one important point .What is
sin?
answer the willful transgression of the law of god.
until a child is older they donot understand the difference between right and wrong. sin is when you know it is wrong and do it anyway.

childern are not "guilty " even thought they commit sin again because they have not reached the age of accountability.

and earthly example would be some one who is found “not guilty by reason of insanity” .

did this some one commit the crime/sin ? yes
are the held accountable ? no

 

[Syele]

So you do believe in original sin! Those verses point to original sin. But that doesn’t mean that those other verses are to be taken literally because those other verses are speaking of actual personal sin and NOT original sin at all.

I never said I didn’t believe in origional sin… it is origional sin that predisposes even young children to have personal sin as well. Not being Catholic, I don’t see such huge differences in types of sin as you do.

 

[AlegreFe]

I assume this isn’t literal either?
Romans 3

10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

No it’s not. Do you believe that Jesus was fully Man? Did that Man commit sin? Was that Man righteous?

 

[Syele]

No it’s not. Do you believe that Jesus was fully Man? Did that Man commit sin? Was that Man righteous?

Jesus is much more than “Fully Human” He is also fully God. Does God seek Himself? Is someone who is both fully man and fully God subjecy to all of humanitys qualities and all of God’s at the same time? Jesus was fully God… was He omnipresent while on earth? No, he was in specific places at specific time. Jesus Was not ONLY human or ONLY God when He he was here walking the earth. You cannot take passages ment for only human people and apply them to God as well.

 

[Tom317]

I like and agree with this answer. It really is that simple.

Sometimes the answer is very simple, yet a ton of people like to make it more complicated.

 

[VociMike]

I hope you’re not taking that literally? I somehow think you don’t though and perhaps is the whole point of this thread.

Yep, you caught me. It is the whole point of this thread. And it has been interesting that in order to hold on to a literal understanding of “all”, some posters have (a) abandoned a literal understanding of “have sinned”, and/or (b) have asserted that babies in the womb are committing acts of sin

(But not Jesus, I guess. Somehow in the womb He acted differently…)

 

[AlegreFe]

I never said I didn’t believe in origional sin… it is origional sin that predisposes even young children to have personal sin as well. Not being Catholic, I don’t see such huge differences in types of sin as you do.

God gave us free will and intellect also. But that intellect doesn’t come into play until the age of reason.

In order to commit a mortal sin one must have three things;

1. 
   *]Grave matter
   *]Full knowledge that it is Grave matter
   *]Complete deliberate consent to do the Grave matter
   
   How can you say that even a baby can have personal sin? A baby cannot have personal sin.
   
   If your child does something that you didn’t want her to do but she didn’t know that you didn’t want her to do xyz and you yelled at her for it, then your yelling would be unfair because she was not aware that you didn’t want her to do xyz.
   You would then have to inform your child that you do not want her to do that again. If the child then does that xyz again knowing that you did not want her to do that, then you would hold her responsible. Does that sound fair or make sense? Yes.
   
   God would not “yell” at someone who didn’t know that what he was doing was offensive to God. Especially if he’s a baby. And what could a baby do that would be so offensive to God anyway? Nothing.

 

[rr1213]

What puzzles me is, John 6 appears to be the only literal passage in the whole Bible.

You know, in the middle of a heated debate with our Catholic friends I’ve often had the same thought…and I actually believe that John 6 is read literally!

 

[Syele]

God gave us free will and intellect also. But that intellect doesn’t come into play until the age of reason.

In order to commit a mortal sin one must have three things;

1. 
   *]Grave matter
   *]Full knowledge that it is Grave matter
   *]Complete deliberate consent to do the Grave matter
   How can you say that even a baby can have personal sin? A baby cannot have personal sin.
   
   If your child does something that you didn’t want her to do but she didn’t know that you didn’t want her to do xyz and you yelled at her for it, then your yelling would be unfair because she was not aware that you didn’t want her to do xyz.
   You would then have to inform your child that you do not want her to do that again. If the child then does that xyz again knowing that you did not want her to do that, then you would hold her responsible. Does that sound fair or make sense? Yes.
   
   God would not “yell” at someone who didn’t know that what he was doing was offensive to God. Especially if he’s a baby. And what could a baby do that would be so offensive to God anyway? Nothing.

1. 
   You are assuming i agree with the Catholic definition of “Mortal Sin.” I don’t say that a baby is going to hell for committing Mortal sin. I said that sin is unrighteousness and it is possible to do something unrighteous when you are not aware of it. I also said Babies would not be held accountable for it.

 

[rr1213]

If you’re talking about a child who has not sinned yet, then yes, but it wouldn’t be until the age of reason.

If you’re talking about a mentally handicapped person, no, he/she would never be capable of committing personal sin.
With that siad, the “all” in scripture is not to be taken literally.

Ok, let’s assume for discussion purposes that you are right. The verse has to have some meaning though. Does “all have sinned” really mean “most have sinned”…“some have sinned”…“all have sinned except Jesus, Mary, children who die before the age of responsibility and those who are mentally incompetent”…or what?

What is the class of people to whom “all have sinned” is intended to encompass?

 

[rr1213]

… it is origional sin that predisposes even young children to have personal sin as wel…

…and, as the father of three children, I’d say that the kids begin to sin at a much earlier age than people might think! Rebellion comes early.

 

[AlegreFe]

Tom317:

God said so.

I like and agree with this answer. It really is that simple.

First of all I’d like to know what Tom meant by his comment of “God said so.” Are you (Tom) saying that God said that we all have sinned? Do you really believe that God could think that even a mentally handicapped person could offend Him?

To AFH, do you believe the same thing as Tom if what I wrote is what Tom meant?

I find it hard to believe that you AllForHim would believe such a thing. You are usually very reasonable.

 

[AlegreFe]

…and, as the father of three children, I’d say that the kids begin to sin at a much earlier age than people might think! Rebellion comes early.

How early are you saying that it comes?

And do you really think that the child knows that what he is doing (rebellion) is offensive to God? Does this child who is rebelling believe in God and in Jesus Christ? Does this child know that God would not be pleased with such acts if indeed the child knew that these acts were offensive to Him?

These children would not have an understanding unless you told them that it was wrong and that such acts offend God. Children in general like to think of Jesus instead of God the Father. They relate better to Jesus as Jesus came into this world as a baby. If a child old enough to understand knew that his actions could be offensive to Jesus then the child would be less likely to commit such acts.

I doubt that babies are capable of understanding about Jesus and sin and offending God.

 

[Syele]

Do you really believe that God could think that even a mentally handicapped person could offend Him?.

What I don’t understand is, why you believe that God’s nature changes according to whom He is dealing with?

Sin is a set thing… an action is sin or it isn’t.
God stays the same.
What offends God stays the same.
God’s Mercy is sufficient for the weak (Children, mentally handicapped etc.).

It seems so … strange… to think that people would believe God’s nature would change based on the ignorance of the Human race. By that logic I could avoid learning what is and isn’t sin… just so I couldn’t commit as many sins. I could just be sure I don’t know for sure what is and isn’t a grave matter. Then not committing a mortal sin would be easy.

 

[AlegreFe]

Ok, let’s assume for discussion purposes that you are right. The verse has to have some meaning though. Does “all have sinned” really mean “most have sinned”…“some have sinned”…“all have sinned except Jesus, Mary, children who die before the age of responsibility and those who are mentally incompetent”…or what?

Yes. and that’s ‘yes’ to the emphasized, but is not limited to that.

rr1213:

What is the class of people to whom “all have sinned” is intended to encompass?

Okay, in the words my 13 year old just said immediately after reading your post (she sits with me sometimes and reads along); “Can’t you figure that out for yourself? It’s common sense. We shouldn’t have to explain this… duh.”
This is just common sense to me and to my 13 year old child and to most Catholics.

 

[Syele]

Yes. and that’s ‘yes’ to the emphasized, but is not limited to that.

Okay, in the words my 13 year old just said immediately after reading your post (she sits with me sometimes and reads along); “Can’t you figure that out for yourself? It’s common sense. We shouldn’t have to explain this… duh.”
This is just common sense to me and to my 13 year old child and to most Catholics.

Seems pretty common sense to the other side too. All humans sin. Period. the Bible says it, why shouldn’t we believe it?

 

[sandusky]

VociMike:

But the question is not about original sin. “All have sinned” is not the same as “all are stained by sin” or “all inherit a fallen nature because of sin”. No, “all have sinned” is a statement that all have committed acts of sin. And I ask, what acts of sin has a stillborn baby committed?

The passage is speaking about Adam’s sin (cf 5:12), not individual, actual sin.

The Greek pantes hamarōn, is 2nd aorist, active, indicative (state of being) (again, cf 5:12, the identical tense, voice, and mood), and it is best translated ALL SINNED rather than all have sinned. It is also historical (constative, or complexive, a narrative), and it means EVERYONE (Mary is included in this passage), sans the stated scriptural exception of Christ.

Again, this is Adam’s sin; when Adam sinned, in God’s eyes, all sinned (Rom 5:12ff).

 

[AlegreFe]

What I don’t understand is, why you believe that God’s nature changes according to whom He is dealing with?

When did I say that God’s nature changes? I know very well that God does not change.

Syele:

Sin is a set thing… an action is sin or it isn’t.

This is not true. But I could say that “grave matter” is grave matter whether you aree with it or not. But I cannot say that a particular act is sin no matter who commits the particular act.

Syele:

God stays the same.
What offends God stays the same.

I agree on both counts.

Syele:

God’s Mercy is sufficient for the weak (Children, mentally handicapped etc.).

God’s Mercy is not necessary for those who are righteous or who are not in sin. They have no need of Mercy. You should know that very well from scripture and I know I don’t have to pull up a particular verse that says that because I’m sure you know of which verse I mean.

Syele:

It seems so … strange… to think that people would believe God’s nature would change based on the ignorance of the Human race. By that logic I could avoid learning what is and isn’t sin… just so I couldn’t commit as many sins. I could just be sure I don’t know for sure what is and isn’t a grave matter. Then not committing a mortal sin would be easy.

No one here has ever said that God’s nature changes. How stupid do you think we Catholics are? We are not ignorant when it comes to God’s nature. God can never change and we know this very well. As far as you committing sin based on whether you know something is sin or not, God knows your heart and I’m sure that is all with which you should be concerned.

 

[AlegreFe]

Seems pretty common sense to the other side too. All humans sin. Period. the Bible says it, why shouldn’t we believe it?

Not everything in the bible is to be taken literally.

I leave this in God’s hands as I pray to the Holy Spirit to enlighten you.

 

[mrs_abbott]

In that case, can animals sin? If an animal commits act X which would be a sin if you or I did it, is it a sin? If a baby commits the same act X, is it a sin?

Animals can’t sin because they don’t have a soul.
Do you seriously think animals sin???