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VociMike
Guest
Really, how can anybody believe this? Is there anybody who actually believes that e.g. a stillborn baby has committed acts of sin?
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Syele
Guest
Well last I checked, Catholics also believe in origional sin.
Also:
(Romans 3:9-10) - "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one.”
(Romans 3:23) - “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
(Psalm 14:3) - “They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
(Ephesians 2:3) - All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
There are other scriptures as well that say everyone has sinned. Only Jesus (who was Fully God) did not sin.
Also:
(Romans 3:9-10) - "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one.”
(Romans 3:23) - “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
(Psalm 14:3) - “They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
(Ephesians 2:3) - All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
There are other scriptures as well that say everyone has sinned. Only Jesus (who was Fully God) did not sin.
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rr1213
Guest
Let me turn the question around if I may. Is there anyone who believes that there is a person capable of sinning who has not sinned? (Other than Christ and, for our Catholic brethern, Mary?)
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VociMike
Guest
But the question is not about original sin. “All have sinned” is not the same as “all are stained by sin” or “all inherit a fallen nature because of sin”. No, “all have sinned” is a statement that all have committed acts of sin. And I ask, what acts of sin has a stillborn baby committed?
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Lee44
Guest
Look it up in the Catechism, I don’t agree with it, stillborn babies going to hell etc. But thats what the Catholics believe.
Lee44
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VociMike
Guest
Well, the Church does not teach that stillborn babies go to hell. But again, this thread is not about original sin, but about actual acts of sin, as implied by “all have sinned”. So I want to know if there is anybody who actually believes that each and every human being has committed acts of sin.
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Fidelis
Guest
I think the OP was talking about Actual Sin, not Original Sin.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
I don’t read anything about “hell” in the catechism…
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As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
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VociMike
Guest
That isn’t turning the question around, for you added the caveat “a person capable of sinning”. But scripture does not say “all who are capable of sinning have sinned”. No, it just says “all have sinned”.
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Fidelis
Guest
As far as Mary goes, yes, there are plenty of people in the world who believe it – the majority of Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) in the world.
As far as *anyone else *not sinning who could, I don’t know of any specific example – but it is concievable, since with God’s grace ALL things are possible.
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Syele
Guest
I was only pointing out there are different types of sin. Most protestants I know believe infants are not yet accountable for sin, if in fact they accidentally commit one.
So you discount all Bible verses that say everyone has sinned because some babies are stillborn?
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Tom317
Guest
God said so.
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VociMike
Guest
So God said that stillborn babies have committed acts of sin?
What might such acts of sin look like?
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VociMike
Guest
Discount? Or realize that the literal understanding is not the understanding intended by God?
I am still waiting to know what acts of sin a stillborn baby has committed.
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Syele
Guest
How do you know it wasn’t the understanding intended by God. I don’t think those verses were written with stillborn babies as the audience.
Psalm 51:5
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The way an infant sins is that they were born that way. The verses are literal and they include Origional sin.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
Real quick doesnt the CC teach that if a baby dies before they are baptized they will go to hell? All of my catholic friends have told me this. They say that is the reason why they should or have to get baptized immediately after birth or within a few weeks anyway.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
I like and agree with this answer.
It really is that simple.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
I’m taking it as meaning being born with original sin. Why do you think people were so upset when the Pope disproved Limbo? Isn’t that where some Catholics believed unbaptised babies go when they die?
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
I believe the sin is original sin based on the scriptures that have been put forth already, but I also believe that a stillborn goes to heaven because God is merciful and knows other then original sin that baby did not commit an act of sin. I just cant think that that baby would go to hell. Just like aborted babies. I think they are in heaven too.
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estesbob
Guest
No its not. But then we have already established that you know very little about the Catholic Church.
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