How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

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Really, how can anybody believe this? Is there anybody who actually believes that e.g. a stillborn baby has committed acts of sin?
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

How can anybody not believe it?
 
We can agree that sin is the breaking of God’s Law. Sin does bring death to the soul, and through Jesus, our sins can be forgiven if we repent and be truly for our sins. God created us out of love, and give us the gift of free will.

I don’t believe the Protestant concept that all sins are the same. Not all sin are equal.

You of course believe that they are all equal. I don’t want to derail the topic, so I won’t bring the issue of mortal and venial sin. That should be in a new thread.
Actually, not all sins are equal. There is one that is unforgiveable.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
 
She was full of grace at that point. Before that point? After bearing Christ? All it takes is one sin and you’re a sinner.
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her:
Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee:
blessed art thou among women
.
29 Who having heard, was troubled at his
saying, and thought with herself what manner
of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary,
for thou hast found grace with God.
Luke 1:28-30 (DR-V)

That term “full of grace” does not fully explain what really happened to Mary. The Greek word or “name” that was given to Mary by God was Kecharitomene.
The full greeting that the Angel used was “Chaire, Kecharitomene” which really means “Hail, (one who has been made) Full of Grace!”

That word, which God chose as Mary’s name, means that Mary has been perfected in Grace and is also presently in Grace. This is a past action that occured. She has been made Full of Grace. Full to the point of overflowing.

So to answer your question; “in the past” she was perfected in Grace. In the present, she IS Full of Grace and she continues to be FULL of Grace.

Here are some websites that might contain an explanation
of that phrase the Angel uses for Mary;
Mary’s Immaculate Conception
Kecharitomene Questions ← click then scroll down to that section.
The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption

okay, I found this which gives a good explanation for the meaning of the word Kecharitomene. I love it!! I never saw this one before but it’s the best and most complete explanation that I’ve seen so far. You can read the whole thing at the website but I put this section here;
Mary was most certainly saved by the grace of Jesus Christ;
in fact she was filled with His saving grace, which is why the
angel Gabriel called her “full of grace” (Luke 1:28). The Greek
term here is kecharitomene, from the verb charitoo, which
means “to fill or endue with grace”. (The root of this verb is the
noun charis, grace; the same word used in Ephesians 2:8,
Romans 11:6 and Acts 15:11, among other passages, to refer
to God’s saving grace.)

Kecharitomene is a perfect present participle of charitoo. A
perfect participle indicates an action completed in the past
with existing results, and a present participle denotes a
continuous, repeated action. So kecharitomene literally
means “one who was completed in grace in the past and who
continues to be full of grace”. Hence the traditional
translation “full of grace” is much more accurate than “highly
favored”, or any other such modern rendering.

The Bible never uses this particular tense of charitoo to refer
to anyone but the Virgin Mary! She alone among all human
persons is utterly embued with the grace of God. Since sin
and grace are opposed (Romans 5:20-21), and grace saves
us from sin (Eph 2:5, 8); Mary’s fullness of grace would
indicate a complete absence of sin (this is a biblical basis
for Catholic belief in Mary’s sinlessness).

This is obviously a gift she receives from God, since she does
not fill herself with grace. Are we to believe that He who began
this great work in Mary was unable to complete it (see
Philippians 1:6)? Did He utterly fill her with grace in the
beginning only to allow her to be damned in the end? No,
the Savior perfected His work in Mary; she is now in Heaven
with Him.
 
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her:
Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee:
blessed art thou among women
.
29 Who having heard, was troubled at his
saying, and thought with herself what manner
of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary,
for thou hast found grace with God.
Luke 1:28-30 (DR-V)

That term “full of grace” does not fully explain what really happened to Mary. The Greek word or “name” that was given to Mary by God was Kecharitomene.
The full greeting that the Angel used was “Chaire, Kecharitomene” which really means “Hail, (one who has been made) Full of Grace!”

That word, which God chose as Mary’s name, means that Mary has been perfected in Grace and is also presently in Grace. This is a past action that occured. She has been made Full of Grace. Full to the point of overflowing.

So to answer your question; “in the past” she was perfected in Grace. In the present, she IS Full of Grace and she continues to be FULL of Grace.

Here are some websites that might contain an explanation
of that phrase the Angel uses for Mary;
Mary’s Immaculate Conception
Kecharitomene Questions ← click then scroll down to that section.
The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption

okay, I found this which gives a good explanation for the meaning of the word Kecharitomene. I love it!! I never saw this one before but it’s the best and most complete explanation that I’ve seen so far. You can read the whole thing at the website but I put this section here;
Mary was most certainly saved by the grace of Jesus Christ;
in fact she was filled with His saving grace, which is why the
angel Gabriel called her “full of grace” (Luke 1:28). The Greek
term here is kecharitomene, from the verb charitoo, which
means “to fill or endue with grace”. (The root of this verb is the
noun charis, grace; the same word used in Ephesians 2:8,
Romans 11:6 and Acts 15:11, among other passages, to refer
to God’s saving grace.)

Kecharitomene is a perfect present participle of charitoo. A
perfect participle indicates an action completed in the past
with existing results, and a present participle denotes a
continuous, repeated action. So kecharitomene literally
means “one who was completed in grace in the past and who
continues to be full of grace”. Hence the traditional
translation “full of grace” is much more accurate than “highly
favored”, or any other such modern rendering.

The Bible never uses this particular tense of charitoo to refer
to anyone but the Virgin Mary! She alone among all human
persons is utterly embued with the grace of God. Since sin
and grace are opposed (Romans 5:20-21), and grace saves
us from sin (Eph 2:5, 8); Mary’s fullness of grace would
indicate a complete absence of sin (this is a biblical basis
for Catholic belief in Mary’s sinlessness).

This is obviously a gift she receives from God, since she does
not fill herself with grace. Are we to believe that He who began
this great work in Mary was unable to complete it (see
Philippians 1:6)? Did He utterly fill her with grace in the
beginning only to allow her to be damned in the end? No,
the Savior perfected His work in Mary; she is now in Heaven
with Him.
You either believe the Holy Spirit or call Him a liar. The latter, as explained in Mark 3:29, has consequences. The Holy Spirit says “For all have sinned” and I believe Him.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
 
15 I will put enmities between thee and
the woman, and thy seed and her seed:
she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt
lie in wait for her heel.
Gen 3:15

15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman;
so divers of the fathers read this place,
conformably to the Latin: others read it
ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the
same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ,
that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

That right there also says that Mary cannot sin.
 
You either believe the Holy Spirit or call Him a liar. The latter, as explained in Mark 3:29, has consequences. The Holy Spirit says “For all have sinned” and I believe Him.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Apparantly you didn’t read my post.

By the way, you don’t scare me either. Your tactics of trying to scare me by saying that I call the Holy Spirit a liar will not work on me, nor on any other Catholic on this forum.

I have not sinned against the Holy Spirit by saying that His Spouse the Virgin Mary has not sinned.

I believe that you are the one to be very careful of what you say about the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Here read this. Please read that before coming back here and saying that we Cathoilcs are sinning against the Holy Spirit.
 
15 I will put enmities between thee and
the woman, and thy seed and her seed:
she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt
lie in wait for her heel.
Gen 3:15

15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman;
so divers of the fathers read this place,
conformably to the Latin: others read it
ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the
same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ,
that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

That right there also says that Mary cannot sin.
You need a different bible.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Did you notice that “It” refers to the seed. The seed refers to the God of peace?
 
Apparantly you didn’t read my post.

By the way, you don’t scare me either. Your tactics of trying to scare me by saying that I call the Holy Spirit a liar will not work on me, nor on any other Catholic on this forum.

I have not sinned against the Holy Spirit by saying that His Spouse the Virgin Mary has not sinned.

I believe that you are the one to be very careful of what you say about the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Here read this. Please read that before coming back here and saying that we Cathoilcs are sinning against the Holy Spirit.
Spouse? I don’t think the spouse sits on seven hills.
 
You need a different bible.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Did you notice that “It” refers to the seed. The seed refers to the God of peace?
I don’t need a different bible. I do have other versions but they’re all Catholic versions, and not one of them say “it” in the verse.

Did you even bother reading the footnote for that verse in the Douay-Rheims version of the Bible? Here let me put it here for you so you won’t have to go back to my post to read it.

15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman;
so divers of the fathers read this place,
conformably to the Latin: others read it
ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the
same: for it is by her seed, Jesus
Christ, that the woman crushes the
serpent’s head
.
 
I don’t need a different bible. I do have other versions but they’re all Catholic versions, and not one of them say “it” in the verse.

Did you even bother reading the footnote for that verse in the Douay-Rheims version of the Bible? Here let me put it here for you so you won’t have to go back to my post to read it.

15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman;
so divers of the fathers read this place,
conformably to the Latin: others read it
ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the
same: for it is by her seed, Jesus
Christ, that the woman crushes the
serpent’s head
.
The woman DOES NOT crush/bruise the serpent’s head! “She” is ONLY used in Catholic Bibles. How can the God of Peace be a she? The God of Peace is Jesus who bruises Satan.

OK then, if you insist… When exactly does Mary bruise Satan? Before or after Jesus does?
 
The woman DOES NOT crush/bruise the serpent’s head! “She” is ONLY used in Catholic Bibles. How can the God of Peace be a she? The God of Peace is Jesus who bruises Satan.

OK then, if you insist… When exactly does Mary bruise Satan? Before or after Jesus does?
“I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” Genesis 3:15

Through the seed of the woman, the woman shall crush the Serpent’s head. The seed of this woman is Jesus, whose death and resurrection crushed Satan’s head.
 

  1. *]Mary is the Favorite Daughter of God the Father
    *]Mary is the Spouse of God the Holy Spirit
    *]Mary is the Mother of God the Son

  1. AlegreFe,

    I wonder if this believers is one of those hard core Protestant believers that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon or something. LOL
 
The woman DOES NOT crush/bruise the serpent’s head! “She” is ONLY used in Catholic Bibles. How can the God of Peace be a she? The God of Peace is Jesus who bruises Satan.

OK then, if you insist… When exactly does Mary bruise Satan? Before or after Jesus does?
Here is something you can read. I mean actually read and think about it, not skim over and then come back and attack us.

The Douay-Rheims version of the Bible is the only Catholic Bible that I know of that says, “she” shall crush. The others that I have say “he” shall crush. But that doesn’t mean that she does not crush the head of the serpent. Oh and none that I have say “it” shall crush.

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives
Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put
enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and
her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary
(the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen
elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the
woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman
with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the
new Adam and the new Eve.

When you think about it, we are all to crush the head of the serpent.
 

  1. *]Mary is the Favorite Daughter of God the Father
    *]Mary is the Spouse of God the Holy Spirit
    *]Mary is the Mother of God the Son

  1. Sorry… but I don’t agree. Actually, I can’t believe that you believe all this. I know you’re probably going to reason by… “if this then that… so it must be.”

    I’ll leave it at this… Mary was blessed. She conceived as a virgin. Glory to God. You’re awesome! Amen
 
Hi,
I get e-mails about God’s Daily Promises and I thought this one was good. Well they are all good.:o

Thursday, January 11
This week’s promise: God will fight for you
Does God hold our sins against us?

Oh, do not hold us guilty for our former sins! Let your tenderhearted mercies quickly meet our needs, for we are brought low to the dust. Help us, O God of our salvation! Help us for the honor of your name. Oh, save us and forgive our sins for the sake of your name.… Then we your people, the sheep of your pasture, will thank you forever and ever, praising your greatness from generation to generation.

Psalm 79:8-9,13 NLT

Petition for Mercy

A plea to God for mercy presumes that the petitioner is guilty. It is the cry of someone brought low, dishonored, and in need of forgiveness. When God shows mercy, he isn’t forgiving that person because of what he or she has done, but because God is compassionate to those who repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness. It is only because of God’s goodness that sinners are forgiven. Asaph understood that it wasn’t his worthiness but the Lord’s greatness that prompted the Lord to rescue him. In light of this truth, Asaph dedicated this prayer to praising God for being so merciful.

Are you in need of God’s mercy? His love and goodness are the source of your hope. Cast yourself on his mercy and let your lips overflow with grateful praise.

I dont think it quite lines up with this thread but I thought I would throw it out there.👍 😃
 
How do you know that’s what “full of grace” means?
Full of grace” is a Catholic interpretation based on its Marianology. Most unbias Greek scholars interpret it as “highly favored.” Which makes sense, since she was the Jewess chosen to bear the highly anticipated Jewish Messiah. And, therefore, truly blessed amongst all women.

The verse in no way implies Mary was made void of “original sin.” She was born of Adam, hence, she too, like all of us “sinned(in Adam)…and so she too, like all of Adam’s descendants - died.Rom 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–” (i.e., in Adam).This one verse alone expels completely the Catholic Marian doctrine of her sinlessness, even perpetual sinlessness. To get around it they say God blocked Mary from “original sin” and Jesus saved her before she was even born.

These are all the efforts of mere men to exalt Mary to juxtaposition with Christ, who truly was born without sin and was Himself another “Adam” (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Cor. 15:45). And all those “born again” through faith in Him receive (are imputed) His righteousness (Rom. 5:19). All of this has to do with Christ, and Christ alone. Nothing to do with Mary. Scripture does not recognize where men have exalted her.

Oh the hoops one must jump through to prove that which does not agree with Divine revelation.
 
Full of grace” is a Catholic interpretation based on its Marianology. Most unbias Greek scholars interpret it as “highly favored.” Which makes sense, since she was the Jewess chosen to bear the highly anticipated Jewish Messiah. And, therefore, truly blessed amongst all women.

The verse in no way implies Mary was made void of “original sin.” She was born of Adam, hence, she too, like all of us “sinned(in Adam)…and so she too, like all of Adam’s descendants - died.Rom 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–” (i.e., in Adam).This one verse alone expels completely the Catholic Marian doctrine of her sinlessness, even perpetual sinlessness. To get around it they say God blocked Mary from “original sin” and Jesus saved her before she was even born.

These are all the efforts of mere men to exalt Mary to juxtaposition with Christ, who truly was born without sin and was Himself another “Adam” (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Cor. 15:45). And all those “born again” through faith in Him receive (are imputed) His righteousness (Rom. 5:19). All of this has to do with Christ, and Christ alone. Nothing to do with Mary. Scripture does not recognize where men have exalted her.

Oh the hoops one must jump through to prove that which does not agree with Divine revelation.
The “highly favored” interpretation is not particularly historical:

Saint Jerome Latin Vulgate “Full of Grace”

*Wyclif’s Version [1380] the verse says “Full of Grace”

Tyndale’s Version [1534] the verse says “Full of Grace”

Cranmer’s Version [1539] the verse says “Full of Grace”

Geneva [1599] says in the Margin Notes "might be rendered, 'full of favour and grace, " The Link is to a Scan from a 1608 Printing of the Geneva Bible]

Authorized Version or KJV [1611] says in the Margin notes “Much Graced”

Polyglott Bible [1838] says in the Margin notes “or Much Graced”

Revised Version [1885] says in the Margin Notes: “Endowed with Grace”.

American Standard Version [1901] says in the Margin Notes: “or Endowed with Grace”.

Scofield Edition [1909, revised in 1914] says in the Margin Notes “or Endued with Grace”

New Standard Reference Bible [1934] says in the Margin notes “Much Graced”

The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa’s [1957] the verse says “peace be to you, O full of grace”

The Amplified [1958] in the verse (In brackets) “endowed with grace” with a foot note that says “literal translation”

A literal Translation by Jay P. Green [1985] the verse says “And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace!..”

The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by Jay P. Green [2nd edition 1985] the verse says "…Hail, one receiving grace!..*
 
…Greek References for “Full of Grace” found in Luke 1:28.

“Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…” [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348]

“Chartoo…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena ‘full of grace’, even the translators of 1611 King James Version show there approval of this in the Margin with “Much Graced” [A Look at the Greek Scriptures, 1984, New York, Garretson Cox & Company Pg. 123 ]

“Chartoo: Grace. To Grace… as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc. Pg. 1471]

“Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitomene a perfect passive participle of the verb Chartoo (only here and Eph. 1:6)… Abbott- Smith defines Chartoo as follows endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Devine favor)” [Word Meaning in the New Testament, copyright 1986, printed by Henndrickson Publishing, edited by Ralph Earle Pg. 52]

“0 favored one (kecharitomene). angel’s address of Mary marks her out recipient of God’s special grace (BAG BDAG, 1081). For Luke, she is a model beneficiary of God’s grace (1:48). The: other use of this verb in the NT Ephesians 1:6. [charitoo]” [The Bible Knowledge Key Word Study, copyright 2002, printed Victor Publishing, edited by Darrell L. Bock, Pg. 180]

“…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc., p. 966]

"Chartoo. . . kecharitomene, full of grace, Luke, i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) "[Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, by W.J. Hickie M.A, 1945, p. 208]

“Chartoo to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6”[The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram - Green, 1982, p. 915]

“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers, Jr. Vol. 1, Pg. 140]

“endue with grace” [A Pocket Lexicon To The Greek New Testament, by Alexander Souter M.A., 1946, P. 281]

“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” " [The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The New Testament, copyright 1998, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers III , Pg. 108]

“Chartoo. . . to endue with grace… : Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6” [A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, by G Abbott- Smith D.D, D.C.L., 1929, p. 480]

“Chartoo: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, [unabridged edition], by W. E. VINE, printed by Riverside Book and Bible House, Pg. 424]

catholicapologetics.net/grace.htm
 
You know how the Bible says Mary was “full of grace”? Is it possible that she was born with original sin, like the rest of us, and then the moment the angel appeared to her, she was erased of all her sins?
And how would God remain just by simply “erasing” her of sin? How would this coincide with Paul’s words:Rom 3:23-26 "…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.God cannot legally just “erase” anyone’s sin(s), and remain “just” Himself, not even Mary’s. For this reason the Son came into this world to bear the cross:Heb 9:26b "…but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."Sins can never be simply “erased” away, but washed away by blood - His blood.
 
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