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Tom317
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Yes.
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mrs_abbott
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Agreed! I know there are many other beliefs that the CC holds that are necessary to maintain its identity as the CC. I just don’t believe the Marian doctrines are.
The CC has bigger issues than that.
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Tom317
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Respectfully, you are wrong. We are to believe and accept and follow all formal teachings of the faith, doctrines and dogmas. It is not a democracy in which we can choose to say Mary sinned.
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JoeyWarren
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No. IMHO, the Nicene Creed covers everything we are required to believe in order to be a believer in Christ and thus be called a christian in the Eyes of God.
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sandusky
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I am not looking at E-Sword, but at the Nestle-Aland Greek NT, and at Robertson’s Word Pictures, which I have linked for your perusal as well—Lk 1:28; Eph 1:6.
Lk 1:28 is a perfect, passive, participle; it is hardly a special conjugated form, (unless, of course, one has a particular bias).
echaritōsen is not so much a different form, but a different tense (the timing of the gracing, if you will)—aorist, active, indicative (state of being).
The only difference is the timing. The perfect is concerned with the moment, and continuing action; the aorist happened in the past, and is not concerned with continuing action; the action may continue; it may not continue; the aorist is not concerned with that, but only states that it happened in the past.
Also, you didn’t answer my question: This word is used in only one other place in the NT, and that is in Eph 1:6 of all believers; therefore, according to the reasoning of your argument, all believers must be sinless as well; do you believe that?
Yes, will you define presupposition?
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Tom317
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Perhaps, if one wants to get in the back door of Protestant Christianity. Yet, if one learns the entire fullness of truth that the Catholic Church holds, and then rejects any part of that truth, they have put themselves in a very bad way.
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mrs_abbott
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And the Nicene Creed is centered around Jesus and His church.
All that says about Mary was that Jesus was born from her.
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Tom317
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Yes, and for Catholics the Nicene Creed is NOT enough, it is merely the start.And the Nicene Creed is centered around Jesus and His church.
All that says about Mary was that Jesus was born from her.
Why bother being a Catholic at all?
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rr1213
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Correction. The ***Catholic Church ***falls apart, not “all of Christianity”. Of course, this is not going to happen because we are talking about matters of faith and, so, there is no way to abolutely prove that an infallable teaching of the Catholic Church is wrong this side of paradise.
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mrs_abbott
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Tom,
I honestly don’t believe that you have to accept whether Mary sinned or not to be Catholic. The Church never solely defined that. It is stated that she was “full of grace”, which the CC accepts that it means “without sin”, due to Greek translation.
I agree that you can’t be a cafeteria Catholic and pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe. That’s not being a faithful Catholic and something that we all struggle with.
Show me a source that says we must believe that Mary was sinless in order to get into heaven.
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mrs_abbott
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Tom, if you don’t mind me asking, why are you Catholic?
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Tom317
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I disagree. The Catholic Church created the Bible and its Canon, along with the creeds and all of the core beliefs of the Christian faith (all given by the Holy Spirit of course). If the Catholic Church is proved to not hold the charism of infallibility, then all of the above comes into question and people would rightly flee from the Christian faith if that were to happen. All of Christianity, save a few stubborn sects would fold over time.
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Tom317
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I asked you first.
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Tom317
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Of course there is not a specific doctrine/dogma stating Mary was/is sinless, yet there are infallible teachings that are founded on that very same fact and one cannot hold those teachings to be true without excepting the foundation upon which they are built:Tom,
I honestly don’t believe that you have to accept whether Mary sinned or not to be Catholic. The Church never solely defined that. It is stated that she was “full of grace”, which the CC accepts that it means “without sin”, due to Greek translation.
I agree that you can’t be a cafeteria Catholic and pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe. That’s not being a faithful Catholic and something that we all struggle with.
Show me a source that says we must believe that Mary was sinless in order to get into heaven.
2853 Victory over the “prince of this world” was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is “cast out.” “He pursued the woman” but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). “Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.” Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: “Come, Lord Jesus,” since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One.
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mrs_abbott
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Ok then. I’ll give you the shortened version, purely factual.I asked you first.
I am Catholic because I was baptized as a baby into Catholicism. I fell away from the Church several years ago and have come back realizing that my life was incomplete without Christ in it. To me, I felt the CC was the best fit for me and I feel right when I’m there.
Alright. Your turn.
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mrs_abbott
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But you don’t have to believe that to get into Heaven. That’s my whole point.
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fix
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The Marian Dogmas include that she was sinless. Right? No Catholic can dissent from that teaching and be in full communion with the Church. Right?
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
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Tom317
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Born into the Catholic faith and followed it until my late teens-twenties. Then fell away for quite some time. Marriage and children reminded me that faith is important so I went into 10 years of training for the faith and I am now an Opus Dei Cooperator. I studied many other Christian faiths and spent about 5 years in Protestant Bible Studies (very in-depth stuff), yet when I began to write a Catholic based Bible Study to counter those Protestant studies, that is when I really took off on my faith.Ok then. I’ll give you the shortened version, purely factual.
I am Catholic because I was baptized as a baby into Catholicism. I fell away from the Church several years ago and have come back realizing that my life was incomplete without Christ in it. To me, I felt the CC was the best fit for me and I feel right when I’m there.
Alright. Your turn.
I now accept everything the Church formally teaches because I believe those teachings are from the Holy Spirit. I also believe that the only faith that completes the law as Jesus said is the Roman Catholic faith–all Jews, and for that matter all people, should be in the RCC if they want to follow God in the fullest sense. I rejoice in the Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist, yet I also rejoice in His saving Grace in confession and in all the sacraments and in the gifts of the Church, the Pope, Magisterium, Scripture, Tradition and the angels and the saints. It is a truly vast faith, just as one would expect from our God.
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JoeyWarren
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Protestant Rubbish. Crosswalk has the Protestant Slant and misinformation.
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