How can anybody possibly believe that "all have sinned"?

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Tom317 said:
I disagree. The Catholic Church created the Bible and its Canon, along with the creeds and all of the core beliefs of the Christian faith (all given by the Holy Spirit of course). If the Catholic Church is proved to not hold the charism of infallibility, then all of the above comes into question and people would rightly flee from the Christian faith if that were to happen. All of Christianity, save a few stubborn sects would fold over time.
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No. We don’t accept that your Church’s teachings are infallable now. We accept the Scriptures as the inspired word of God even though we don’t accept many of your other teachings. In fact, Protestants believe that the Catholic Church is in error on a number of signficant teachings. Catholics, of course, return the favor. I am not saying that there would be no effect, but it would not be even close to what you are suggesting in Protestant circles.
 
rr1213 said:
No. We don’t accept that your Church’s teachings are infallable now. We accept the Scriptures as the inspired word of God even though we don’t accept many of your other teachings. In fact, Protestants believe that the Catholic Church is in error on a number of signficant teachings. Catholics, of course, return the favor. I am not saying that there would be no effect, but it would not be even close to what you are suggesting in Protestant circles.
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Do you think the early CC, like before 400 A.D., was the church Jesus established?
I’m not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand the other point of view. 🙂
 
mrs_abbott said:
Wrong because that is not what makes the Catholic Church what it is.
The Eucharist is what makes the Catholic Church what it is, along with everything that is listed in the Nicene Creed and the Mass. 👍
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Christ and His Church cannot be separated. He is the head. He speaks through His Church. He has said to be in full commuinion is to assent to all teachings as my link provides.

He said to His apostles he who hears you hears Me. I think we ought to listen as He told us.
 
mrs_abbott said:
Wrong because that is not what makes the Catholic Church what it is.
The Eucharist is what makes the Catholic Church what it is, along with everything that is listed in the Nicene Creed and the Mass. 👍
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You are just plain mistaken about the faith. Consider this excerpt:

***‘Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected’ (Pope Benedict XVI, Ad beatissimi Apostolorum). **

As Father Hahel explains, this means that 'to believe rightly… everything without exception that God teaches us through the Catholic Church, be it written or tradition; be it Holy Writ or not, must be believed. For Christ commissioned His Apostles to teach all nations and to teach them everything that He had told them. By that He has imposed upon everybody who hears His teachings, the duty to believe all of it. If any one were to reject one simple truth of the faith, though he accepted all others, he would come under the category of those of whom St. James says: ‘now whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all’’(5).

This teaching of the Church is particularly important in our day. If we reject any of the truths of the Catholic faith - even one - we can no longer call ourselves Catholic. If the acceptance of Vatican II (to which the post-Conciliar conscience is bound) involves a single change in the teaching of the Church Magisterium, this principle applies.

Consider the statement of the Martyr St. Edmund Campion given to the Anglican Bishop Chaney during his ‘trial’: 'What is the use of fighting for many articles of the Faith, and to perish for doubting a few. He believes no one article of the Faith who refuses to believe any single one. In vain do you defend the religion of Catholics, if you hug only that which you like, and cut off all that seems not right in your eyes. There is but one plain known road: not enclosed by your palings [fences] or mine, not by private judgment, but by the severe laws of humility and obedience.’

As Pope Leo XIII said in his Encyclical Sapaentiae Christianae: ‘To refuse to believe in any one of them is equivalent to rejecting them all’, and as Pius XII taught in his address to the Bishops of the Sacred Congregation in 1949: ‘The Catholic doctrine must be set forth and taught completely and entirely. One cannot allow that anything should be omitted or veiled in ambiguous terms…’*

wandea.org.pl/catholic-faith.html
 
mrs_abbott said:
Do you think the early CC, like before 400 A.D., was the church Jesus established?
I’m not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand the other point of view. 🙂
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Yes, of course, from Peter on to today.
 
mrs_abbott said:
Do you think the early CC, like before 400 A.D., was the church Jesus established?
I’m not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand the other point of view. 🙂
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Christ established his church. The Catholic Church can trace its lineage back to that same church. So can the Protestant Churches, albeit through the Catholic Church. The Church of Christ are those Churches where the Gospel is rightly preached and the sacraments are rightfully administered.

Ok, Catholics, pound away… 😉
 
mrs_abbott said:
It is not a teaching from the Holy Spirit, as it is not written in scripture.
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Then you reject infallibility? You reject the Pope’s special charisms? You reject the Magisterium’s special chairms? You reject Sacred Tradition?

BTW, it is in Scripture, Mary was hailed as being full of Grace.
 
Yes, will you define presupposition?
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a presupposition is an assumption about the world whose truth is taken for granted in discourse. Examples of presuppositions include:

Do you want to do it again?
Presupposition: You have done it already, at least once.

My wife is pregnant.
Presupposition: The speaker has a wife.

The Catholic Church is wrong.
Presupposition: The Protestant stance is correct.
 
Tom317 said:
Then you reject infallibility? You reject the Pope’s special charisms? You reject the Magisterium’s special chairms? You reject Sacred Tradition?

BTW, it is in Scripture, Mary was hailed as being full of Grace.
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I question infallibility, as should you, to make sure the CC is doing its part in remaining true to the core beliefs of Catholicism.
The “full of grace” referenced in scripture says nothing about being sinless. The Greek translation is what hints at that but the Greek was translated from Aramic, I’m assuming, so a little could have been lost there too.
We just can’t be for certain on that and neither is the Church and therefore not necessary for salvation.
 
fix said:
Christ and His Church cannot be separated. He is the head. He speaks through His Church. He has said to be in full commuinion is to assent to all teachings as my link provides.

He said to His apostles he who hears you hears Me. I think we ought to listen as He told us.
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Agreed. Mary being sinless is NOT a teaching held to be true by the Catholic Church.
 
mrs_abbott said:
I question infallibility, as should you, to make sure the CC is doing its part in remaining true to the core beliefs of Catholicism.
The “full of grace” referenced in scripture says nothing about being sinless. The Greek translation is what hints at that but the Greek was translated from Aramic, I’m assuming, so a little could have been lost there too.
We just can’t be for certain on that and neither is the Church and therefore not necessary for salvation.
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Man, how many times must this be said: The Church founds several infallible teachings about the truth that Mary was sinless. If you reject that Mary was sinless, you are rejecting infallible teachings of the faith, which means you are rejecting the Holy Spirit, which means you have placed your soul at risk. This is NOT a game, it is eternally serious stuff.
 
Meanwhile, the Satan led Protestants are watching us bicker among ourselves… Good job Guys!:mad: Satan is proud of you!:mad:
 
JoeyWarren said:
Meanwhile, the Satan led Protestants are watching us bicker among ourselves… Good job Guys!:mad: Satan is proud of you!:mad:
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No, the satan led Protestants are seeing that Catholics actually care about the Lord and their faith, it is quite a defeat for satan. 🙂
 
Tom317 said:
No, the satan led Protestants are seeing that Catholics actually care about the Lord and their faith, it is quite a defeat for satan. 🙂
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Trust me the presuppostions of Protestants is showing the perception I indicated.

This needs to get back on topic.

If you and Mrs Abbott and others want to continue this, one of you should start a new thread.
 
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