How can I prove that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin?

[panevino]

‘The Virginity of Mary’ is an argument that goes round and round in circles; more than one *Catholic Answers Forum *has debated it.
Ultimately the question seems to be - “Mary, a Virgin, how does that personally effect me?”
It’s the same sort of question as “How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?” A little unproductive.

Mary, a Virgin, that’s nice dear. What relevance does it have? - I fail to see how it puts clothes on your back, food on the table or a roof over your head.

I think )) it is a bigger picture issue for the church which is magnification/ensurance of the divinity of jesus for the spread of christianity. (ie: for the benefit of mankind not necessarily for an individual on a grass roots level) . this may not be so clear to us now, but it would of been very different to the OT people and the early christians that understood the prophecies and understood the place and reverence for the OT ark.

NT - “And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed…luke 1:46…”

OT - Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezek 38:23

 

[tqualey]

Hold on, Buddy,

Just how often are you going to ignore, evade and just flat out print out nonsense?

You wanted proof about the DOGMA of Mary’s Virginity - you got and do you say, ‘Thank you’ for providing you with information you really could have gotten for yourself? No. You want to know just what it means. Well, let’s try this approach…

‘The Virginity of Mary’ is an argument that goes round and round in circles; more than one *Catholic Answers Forum *has debated it.
Ultimately the question seems to be - “Mary, a Virgin, how does that personally effect me?”
It’s the same sort of question as “How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?” A little unproductive.

Mary, a Virgin, that’s nice dear. What relevance does it have? - I fail to see how it puts clothes on your back, food on the table or a roof over your head.

Mary Perpetual Virginity is God’s sign to the entire human race that He is Master of all. From all eternity God has chosen a Mother for the entire human race - the Mother of God is Mary. We can all, without regard to any other consideration, fly to her as our protecting Mother and ask her to lead us to Christ, our God and our Savior.

Come to think of it, Christ’s death on the Cross does not put “…clothes on your back, food on the table or a roof over your head…” either. So, just what do you make of that?

God bless

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Hold on, Buddy,

Just how often are you going to ignore, evade and just flat out print out nonsense?

You wanted proof about the DOGMA of Mary’s Virginity - you got and do you say, ‘Thank you’ for providing you with information you really could have gotten for yourself? No. You want to know just what it means. Well, let’s try this approach…

Mary Perpetual Virginity is God’s sign to the entire human race that He is Master of all. From all eternity God has chosen a Mother for the entire human race - the Mother of God is Mary. We can all, without regard to any other consideration, fly to her as our protecting Mother and ask her to lead us to Christ, our God and our Savior.

Come to think of it, Christ’s death on the Cross does not put “…clothes on your back, food on the table or a roof over your head…” either. So, just what do you make of that?

God bless

Be careful you are not putting the importance of Mary before that due her Son.
(And I love the way you attack me and then say “God bless” as though abuse can be justified.)

 

[po18guy]

Ultimately the question seems to be - “Mary, a Virgin, how does that personally effect me?”

This is certainly a question that affects KEVIN WILCOX. Have you ever asked our Lord to reveal the answer to you? At adoration? Have you ever totally subjected yourself to the teaching of Christ’s Church, which Saint Paul says is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”? I had doubts about Mary’s role for years. I do not have those doubts any longer.

Mary, a Virgin, that’s nice dear. What relevance does it have? - I fail to see how it puts clothes on your back, food on the table or a roof over your head.

Let’s see where this line of questioning leads us: The same question applies to God, to Jesus, and to the Holy Spirit. All are Church teachings, and if you reject one Church teaching, where do you stop rejecting those teachings?

 

[tqualey]

Kevin,

If you simply read the words I wrote, you would see your post misses the point AND still continues to evade the issue.

Honestly, Kevin, pointing this out repeatedly has become tedious…and, I really am beginning to wonder if you are focused on the issues here.

Answer the question, or simply say you do not know the answer or just listen to others to get a better idea of what is going on. Reading your continued rephrashing of the same material, your continued errors, your refusal to even acknowldege that you have received correction is making me wonder about the sincerity you are bringing to this thread.

As one who claims to be a Catholic, I find your comments saddening and shows a heart that is not open to the saving Word of our Savior, Jesus Christ. You should take a good look at how you speak about His Mother.

Be careful you are not putting the importance of Mary before that due her Son.

Fish or cut bait. Honestly, if you not going to respond to the topics presented, then I do not think I can continue to return your posts.

God bless
(And I love the way you attack me and then say “God bless” as though abuse can be justified.)

Sad you think you are being attacked when simply and straightforward facts are presented to you - and you simply choose to ingnore them. Did you know, there is it goes like this: “D.E.K.I.A.L.” (Don’t Even Know I Am Lying).

God bless and may the Holy Spirit provide all of us with His Gift of Understanding.

 

[chairman]

Kevin, and others,

I have been following this thread for a very long time, and i am not too comfortable where it is leading us. Kevin, try to respond accordingly when you are asked questions, it make those u are asking know that you are not just mocking the whole dogma, or trying to make people disbelive it, or simply putting your reputation in jeopardy.

It is not easy for people to believe that, especially scientists (like me), but i do believe that the church fathers have received many signs to back it up, and have studied history, before bring it forward.
I always pray that the Holy Spirit reveal to me the true nature of such things as this which human understanding cannot comprehend and fully explain.
We should be more polite in our responses, so as not to turn this forum into a free for all fight. Thats what distinguishes us as catholics

Thanks

THE WAYS OF GOD IS NOT THE WAYS OF MEN

Onyenuru Okechukwu. P (nO. P)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Chairman,

Welcome to the list. I think you will find it a source of much happiness and wisdom.

This was a very kind and insightful post - thank you for taking the time to write.

Kevin, and others,

I have been following this thread for a very long time, and i am not too comfortable where it is leading us. Kevin, try to respond accordingly when you are asked questions, it make those u are asking know that you are not just mocking the whole dogma, or trying to make people disbelive it, or simply putting your reputation in jeopardy.

It is not easy for people to believe that, especially scientists (like me), but i do believe that the church fathers have received many signs to back it up, and have studied history, before bring it forward.
I always pray that the Holy Spirit reveal to me the true nature of such things as this which human understanding cannot comprehend and fully explain.
We should be more polite in our responses, so as not to turn this forum into a free for all fight. Thats what distinguishes us as catholics

Thanks

THE WAYS OF GOD IS NOT THE WAYS OF MEN

Onyenuru Okechukwu. P (nO. P)

May I ask what the letter after your name mean? I have not seen any quite like it.

God bless

 

[eamonnroma]

To pzona,

Well, actually, there is something wrong (sinful) with unrestrained sex. Sex is for reproduction, but that is not always how people are using it, as we have all inherited concupiscence, i.e., the unrestrained lower appetite. We are all called to develop chastity, in fact moderation in all things is required for purity. In (Catholic) marriage sex may be enjoyed without sin, only if it is chaste (ordered to reason). This excludes union strictly for pleasure alone as there must be openness to children on each occassion:

**Catechism of the Catholic Church 2362 **“The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude.”

So it is very significant that the Blessed Virgin Mary is pure (has no stain of original sin) as she has been blessed to be free of concupiscence from her birth, this is called the Immaculate Conception and is a dogma. Ever-virgin is different, but related, dogma.

Hi

But when and where was the dogma of ‘Mary Ever Virgin’ defined? Thanks

 

[mangy_dog]

Juan,

The simple answer is that there is no Scripture that supports Mary having no other children. However, while there are Scriptures that suggest Mary may have had other children, there is no Scripture that positively confirms siblings.

So I ask you this, What difference does it make if Mary had other children with Joseph after the birth of Jesus?

It would not be a sin as they were legally married according to Jewish law.

It would not change who Jesus was nor deter his mission.

It would not change God not His sovereign nature.

So what difference does it make?

It does make a difference.

Just like it makes a difference that his name is Jose and not Juan.

 

[mangy_dog]

All the virtues attributed to the Theotokos are in light of the virtues of Christ!

If you wonder at Mary’s Immaculate Conception…look to Jesus for the reason.

If you wonder about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity…look to Jesus for the reason.

If you wonder about Mary’s Assumption…look to Jesus for the reason.

If you wonder about Mary being the Co-redemptrix, Co-Mediatrix and Advocate…look to Jesus for the reason.

And Joseph!!!

If you wonder about Joseph not taking Mary in an intimate way…look to Jesus for the reason of this also.

 

[Vico]

eamonnroma, you asked: “But when and where was the dogma of ‘Mary Ever Virgin’ defined?”

Pope Leo I “the Great”, “Tome to Flavian,” DS 291, June 13, 449 AD.

General Council of Chalcedon, 451 AD, Mansi 7.462.

Both the Fifth (533 AD) and Sixth (680 AD) Ecumenical Councils declared as dogma, the ever-virgin, before, during, and after giving birth. Ever-virgin was added to the Creed at the fifth.

Lateran Council, Oct, 649 AD, DS 503

Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 AD confirmed.
Second Council of Lyons, 1274 AD, confirmed.
Dogma of the Assumption 1950 AD, confirmed.

Vatican II, Lumen Gentian 57, Nov. 21, 1964 AD, using the word “integrity” and referring to Lateran Council. *

Signum Magnum 1967 AD, Pope Paul VI.

Blessed Pope John Paul II, General Audience of Jan 28, 1987 AD and in an address to Marian Study Conference in Capua, Italy, June 10, 1992. *

• Vatican II cited Lateran Council as authoritative and so did Bl. Pope John Paul II.

*Modern Catholic Dictionary *by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., (has Imprimatur, Nihil Obstat, and Imprimi Potest 1999), states that the doctrine refers primarily to the Blessed Virgin Mary’s bodily integrity, but includes her mind and senses also.

 

[Vico]

Links to documents answering the question: “But when and where was the dogma of ‘Mary Ever Virgin’ defined?”

Tome to Flavian (449)

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf212.ii.iv.xxvii.html

Ecumenical Councils of Chalcedon (451), Constantinople (553 and 680)

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum04.htm

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum05.htm

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum06.htm

Council of Lateran (649) see Canon 3:

campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/documents/popescoun2.html

Fourth Lateran Council (1215)

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum12-2.htm

Second Council of Lyons (1274)

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum14.htm

Assumption Dogma (1950)

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

Lumen Gentium (1964)

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Signum Magnum (1967)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19670513_signum-magnum_en.html

Bl. Pope John Paul II, General Audience (1987)

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19870128en.html

Bl. Pope John Paul II, Capua Address (Italian) (1992)

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1992/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19920524_concilio-capua_it.html

Fr. Hardin, Modern Catholic Dictionary, Virginity of Mary entry:
catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37118

 

[Kamalayka]

PROOF THAT MARY WAS ALWAYS A VIRGIN:

In Jesus’ time, children would take care of the parents when they got older. If Jesus had siblings, they would have taken care of Mary.

Here is proof He had no siblings (and that Joseph had died already):

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son,"and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

Jesus would not have had a disciple of His take care of His Mother unless there were no siblings to do it!!!

 

[tqualey]

Hi Vico,

Thanks for the links.

Links to documents answering the question: “But when and where was the dogma of ‘Mary Ever Virgin’ defined?”

Tome to Flavian (449)

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf212.ii.iv.xxvii.html

Ecumenical Councils of Chalcedon (451), Constantinople (553 and 680)

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum04.htm

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum05.htm

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum06.htm

Council of Lateran (649) see Canon 3:

campus.udayton.edu/mary//resources/documents/popescoun2.html

Fourth Lateran Council (1215)

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum12-2.htm

Second Council of Lyons (1274)

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum14.htm

Assumption Dogma (1950)

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

Lumen Gentium (1964)

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Signum Magnum (1967)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19670513_signum-magnum_en.html

Bl. Pope John Paul II, General Audience (1987)

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19870128en.html

Bl. Pope John Paul II, Capua Address (Italian) (1992)

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1992/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19920524_concilio-capua_it.html

Fr. Hardin, Modern Catholic Dictionary, Virginity of Mary entry:
catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37118

God bless

 

[chairman]

Hi, Chairman,

Welcome to the list. I think you will find it a source of much happiness and wisdom.

This was a very kind and insightful post - thank you for taking the time to write.

May I ask what the letter after your name mean? I have not seen any quite like it.

God bless

tqualey,

i am a Novice of the Order of Preachers (O. P)

Thanks

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Chairman,

***PRAISE GOD! *** My prayers are and will be with you as you progress in your vocation.

tqualey,

i am a Novice of the Order of Preachers (O. P)

Thanks

I was taught by the Dominicans the first time I was in college. And 40 years later, I still have grateful thoughts of the men and the wisdom they shared with their students. Please keep me and my family in your prayers.

God bless

 

[Tomb54]

PROOF THAT MARY WAS ALWAYS A VIRGIN:

In Jesus’ time, children would take care of the parents when they got older. If Jesus had siblings, they would have taken care of Mary.

Here is proof He had no siblings (and that Joseph had died already):

John 19:25-27
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son,"and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

Jesus would not have had a disciple of His take care of His Mother unless there were no siblings to do it!!!

how true and you can add to this that if He had siblings then He would have caused them to sin by Jewish law not allowing them to take care of their mother as is required. At this point all you have to ask is would Jesus cause anyone to sin? If not then He had no siblings.

 

[JUAN_DIEGO]

I want to thank all of you for the information given. Once again may God bless you all!

 

[bluelake]

Hello everyone,

Hey friends my name is Jose and I would like to know how to prove to my friends that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin.  God Bless You All  :)

Hello Juan,
The infallible Word of God reads that Mary had other children. Mt.12:46-49,Mt.13:55-57
However, I view this as not being a salvation issue.The RCC teaches that Mary remained a virgin. They also teach she was raised into heaven and did not die a mortal death. The Bible is silent on this issue too. the Bible does not tell us what happened to Mary.
You have to make a decision for yourself as to where the Holy Spirit is guiding you. Pray about this and also ask for guidnance from your pastor…
We walk by faith, not proof.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

how true and you can add to this that if He had siblings then He would have caused them to sin by Jewish law not allowing them to take care of their mother as is required. At this point all you have to ask is would Jesus cause anyone to sin? If not then He had no siblings.

tomb,
When did Joseph, the husband of Mary, die?

bluelake