How can I prove that the Virgin Mary has always been a virgin?

[Mannyfit75]

RIght, Scripture can support the idea of perpetual virginity, but nothing in Scripture requires or proves such a teaching.

The Synod in 649 is not considered an Ecumenical Council by the Catholic Church. Just a clarification.

thanks for the clarification.

 

[Crumpy]

Juan,

The simple answer is that there is no Scripture that supports Mary having no other children. However, while there are Scriptures that suggest Mary may have had other children, there is no Scripture that positively confirms siblings.

So I ask you this, What difference does it make if Mary had other children with Joseph after the birth of Jesus?

It would not be a sin as they were legally married according to Jewish law.

It would not change who Jesus was nor deter his mission.

It would not change God not His sovereign nature.

So what difference does it make?

As a Catholic, I have asked that question to myself many times. Isn’t it sort of gnarly that the Catholic Church insists that Mary has the charism of perpetual virginity (before, during, and after the birth of Jesus)?

After years of thought and some reading of scripture, and viewing many posts on the subject, I have concluded that it is very important and relevant that Mary has perpetual virginity.

A lot of controversy swirls around Is 7:14 (or thereabouts) and whether the word there should be translated “maiden” “young woman” or “virgin”.

IF you don’t want to take it from a Catholic, take it from the Ryrie Study Bible (a gift from my evangelical relatives) comment on Is 7:14 is that word is used elsewhere in the sense of virgin. So, the use of that word there and in Mt’s account of the nativity is entirely appropriate, to be virgin.

Now, in Is 7:14, that birth is supposed to be a sign. Now, focus on the idea of “sign” rather than on the virgin part. Would it be a “sign” if a maiden bore a child? No, that’s pretty common. Doesn’t seem like anything special to me.

But, if you acceed to the prediction that a “virgin shall ***conceive and bear ***a son”
then you have to look for a woman who is a virgin when she conceives and when she bears a son. Now, that’s a little bit harder to imagine, isn’t it? Wouldn’t that be a sign if such a thing were to happen?

Mary’s virginity – her perpetual virginity – is a sign that Jesus is the Messiah.

If you refute this with a wave of a hand as being improbable, then you have to dismiss that Is 7:14 is a prophecy of anything, right? But, that goes against a lot of Catholic and Protestant scripture interpretation. And, again, what kind of a sign could we imagine that an ordinary “maiden” would conceive and bear a child? That’s a pretty ordinary occurrence, isn’t it, even today?

IF you deny the idea, then you have to dismiss the Mt account of the nativity of Jesus, because THAT is the way that he takes it.

And, then as some have said above, there is no conclusive evidence that Mary and Joseph had children, or even any relations.

Dr. Tim Gray has recently published a short book on Lection Divina, and I think it was in there someplace that he gave some passing observations about a couple things relevant to this discussion.

At the end of Genesis, we read about the well-known Joseph who was the son of Jacob (Israel, right?). And what do we see as a prominent feature of Joseph’s character except that he was restrained from having relations with Pharoah’s wife? So, look at the parallel in the Gospel of Mt, that we have Joseph who is also a son of a guy named Jacob, and who has a chaste relationship with Mary who is the perpetual virgin. So, through typology, there is some validation of the Catholic viewpoint.

The least that one can say is that the Catholic viewpoint is contrived or lacks plausibility. It just becomes fodder for the ongoing sniping of Protestants against Catholics.

 

[John1]

Nothing in scripture can concretely affirm that Mary remained a perpetual virgin. Why does it make a difference? Would anyone have any less repect for the mother of our Lord and Savior if she did have other children? Would anyone consider her any less blessed? Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Remember Joseph was instructed by the Angel, not to be with her until after she gave birth to the Son. Personally, I believe that focussing needlessly on such matters detracts from focussing on Jesus and his teachings.

 

[Steven_John]

I think the story of Joseph (pbuh) the loved son and despised brother is a parallel to Yahooshua (pbwh) not the carpenter.

Just look at the similarities.

 

[Steven_John]

You’re not being hard on me, but you are misunderstanding again. I said I wouldn’t try to convince you of the perpetual virginity of Mary unless I knew you already believed in the virgin birth. You said you did believe in the virgin birth so I proceeded to try to convince you. As for your point, it is written:

Galatians 4 (NIV)

26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:

“Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”****

Ok then i am not to speak against scripture, the Church is from your words indeed barren therefore fruitless.

 

[Luke65]

Ok then i am not to speak against scripture, the Church is from your words indeed barren therefore fruitless.

Carnally fruitless - spiritually fruitful!

 

[Steven_John]

Carnally fruitless - spiritually fruitful!

Please we need to stop,

I respect it may be that way where you live but it aint on my block or i would be making sure people got a hard shove.

my parish feeds people, we have housed the homeless, helped people with cars, their homes, purchase palliative care equipment for our hospital and on and on…

The people at my parish give of their material blessings and ease the material sufferings of other people even enemy’s to the Catholic faith.

Really my parish is stronger in carnal stuff than spiritual.

I am eva trying to share Yahooshua (pbwh) is about both being in one so they dont shy away from the spiritual.

How does this relate to the thread not,
i am now with John in the question does it even matter if she was eva virgin?

 

[Steven_John]

Br Luke,
i know you love me or My Father would not inspire me so.

The explanation you offered earlier is very complex and for me to follow it i would need to go way of thread best either you put it toward all and not me or if the Spirit is urging you to share with me personally lets pm it unless everyone here wants it here.

…

HMM i only read the first paragraph after i pray about the barren church i may read more. sorry for my negligence in not reading it fully but my brain is not bright. At least to every one else it must have made sense.

 

[Ginger2]

I hope this post does not kick us over a page, i really liked the post by luke65, but i found this interesting, regarding a betorthed virgin who could possibly remain a virgin.

*36If a man thinks he is not behaving properly toward his virgin,[t] and if his passion is so strong that he feels he ought to marry her, let him do what he wants; he isn’t sinning. Let them get married. 37However, if a man stands firm in his resolve, feels no necessity, and has made up his mind to keep her a virgin, he will be acting appropriately. 38So then the man who marries the virgin acts appropriately, but the man who refrains from marriage does even better. *1 Corinthians 7:36 ISV

This was good so I looked it up and read the whole chapter. 36 If anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, and if a critical moment has come and so it has to be, let him do as he wishes. He is committing no sin; let them get married.

This, if it is indeed a note on a vow of celibacy by a virgin who was taken under guardianship of a man, indicates it would be no sin to at some point to begin marital relations.

Ginger

 

[kepha1]

I think I get it. Mary was just a divine rent-a-womb that God did not hold sacred so He permitted her to be passed around to the nearest convenient sugar daddy when He was finished with her.

I’m sure there are plenty of Bible “proof texts” to support this blasphemy, but no verses that clearly, explicitly and repeatedly proclaims her relationship to the Holy Spirit in every chapter, therefore she didn’t have one.

This seems to be the constant underlying message to those who cannot or will not comprehend what perfect holiness means. Having children is a holy thing, but Mary was preserved to bear One Child that she may be the mother of us all.

 

[Ginger2]

I think I get it. Mary was just a divine rent-a-womb that God did not hold sacred so He permitted her to be passed around to the nearest convenient sugar daddy when He was finished with her.

I’m sure there are plenty of Bible “proof texts” to support this blasphemy, but no verses that clearly, explicitly and repeatedly proclaims her relationship to the Holy Spirit in every chapter, therefore she didn’t have one.

This seems to be the constant underlying message to those who cannot or will not comprehend what perfect holiness means. Having children is a holy thing, but Mary was preserved to bear One Child that she may be the mother of us all.

Why do you disrespect Mary so?

There would be nothing sinful about Mary bearing children for her husband, Joseph.

Mary was already betrothed to Joseph before the angel announced God’s plan for her.

Are you suggesting God defile another man’s wife???

God did not take a human wife. That is a pagan idea. God chose Mary to enter this world in human form.
God did not have sexual relations with a human woman. That is a pagan idea. God chose Mary to enter this world in human form- just as all humans beings enter this world.

Mary was already legally married to Joseph before the Holy Spirit came upon her. That makes Joseph the first husband. Once a couple is betrothed, the marriage is legal and binding.

Mary was Joseph’s wife. God would not break His own commandment.

Or are you suggesting Mary was betrothed to God without knowing and God allowed her to be betrothed to Joseph, as well?

Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.” 4 Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, “Lord, will you kill an innocent people? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now then, return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

8 So Abimelech rose early in the morning and called all his servants and told them all these things. And the men were very much afraid. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done.” 10 And Abimelech said to Abraham, “What did you see, that you did this thing?” 11 Abraham said, “I did it because I thought, There is no fear of God at all in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife. 12 Besides, she is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father though not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife. 13 And when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, I said to her, ‘This is the kindness you must do me: at every place to which we come, say of me, He is my brother.’”

14 Then Abimelech took sheep and oxen, and male servants and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and returned Sarah his wife to him. 15 And Abimelech said, “Behold, my land is before you; dwell where it pleases you.” 16 To Sarah he said, “Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver. It is a sign of your innocence in the eyes of all [1] who are with you, and before everyone you are vindicated.” 17 Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech, and also healed his wife and female slaves so that they bore children. 18 For the Lord had closed all the wombs of the house of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife.

Ginger

 

[Luke65]

Why do you disrespect Mary so?

There would be nothing sinful about Mary bearing children for her husband, Joseph.

Oh, so if we don’t assume that Joseph and Mary had conjugal relations because it wasn’t sinful and that’s what everybody else does then we’re disrespecting her? Ridiculous. Mary had obviously taken a vow of celibacy, which Joseph had agreed to and so it was binding under the Law of Moses, since she said, “a husband I do not know” - a platonic husband. Joseph and Mary took vows of celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven - which was in their house! Indeed, the Blessed Virgin has an uncanny way of revealing what is in the hearts of people…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, I guess we’re just stodgy old hide-bound traditionalists. In an era when a lot of Protestants (and sadly not a few Catholics) think nothing of divorce and have elevated sex to be the be-all-and-end-all of a relationship, it’s not surprising that it’s only the Catholic (and let’s not forget, as so many do, the Orthodox) who cling to the eternal and unchanging teachings.

Who is the Father of Jesus? God, through the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her.
And Mary is His mother.

Well, when did the Spirit die? If Mary and the Spirit are the parents of a child, Jesus, then the only way that Mary would be ‘free’ to engage in marital relations would be if the father of her child were to die. . . Unless, of course, you want the modern (which is really a rehash of the earliest pagan) thought which makes God an adulterer and seducer.

Either God has a relationship with Mary (He the Father, she the mother of the Son), or he is no better or worse than Zeus seducing the various already-married earthly women and begetting semi-divine offspring on them, and then allowing them to ‘go about their business’.

So, Jesus and His brothers/ sisters are just like the old Greek myth of Casper and Pollux. . twin sons, one sired by Zeus and one by the ‘real’ earthy father. One an immortal god and the other human. (cute tale. In the end, they ‘split’ the time, staying half on Olympus and half in Hades, as the immortal brother refuses to leave the mortal one).

Why would God (who loves us) and who instituted the sacrament of marriage trample it down the way protestants think he does? Such a twisted notion, that tries to take good (relations in marriage) and elevate it to be the ‘only good’ of marriage. To assume that the Holy Family of Jesus, Mary and Joseph, foster father, ever-virgin mother, and Divine Son, can’t be ‘good enough’ unless they mimick 20th century sex-saturated society, in which, after the experience of bringing forth the son of God, Mary is relegated to the ‘kitchen’ and expected to 'have your OWN kids with Joe". . .and Joseph, watching Mary give birth to the son of God, is expected then to step up to the plate because hey, it’s marriage, and unless you have sex it is just nothing. So you have the Son of God to take care of, and hey, Herod is after him and you’ve gotta go to Egypt, and try to make a living, and as if there’s not enough in just normal care of a child you don’t know WHAT kind of things could happen since He is the MESSIAH. . .but oh well, you know, after all that, naturally the only thing that could possibly be on your mind is having sex. She’s just a ‘normal’ woman and all.

 

[diggerdomer]

= Mary had obviously taken a vow of celibacy, which Joseph had agreed to and so it was binding under the Law of Moses, … Joseph and Mary took vows of celibacy f.

Whoa, this caught me off guard. I’ve never heard this before. Where does this idea come from? Where is it obvious Mary took the vow you claim? And Joseph? Thanks for any clarification.

 

[Tomb54]

I have faith in God, but I have no faith in your Church. God thought it was important enough to give us His inspired, inerrant word in the Scriptures, and He made it clear that to go beyond what Scripture says is dangerous (see Proverbs 30:6).

If it’s something we need to know, wouldn’t God make it clear? Why wouldn’t God just come out and tell us in His word that Mary was a perpetual virgin rather than “suggest” this was the case? Doesn’t God love us enough to tell us what He considers important? I believe He does!

Scripture tells us to imitate Jesus as best we can. Jesus was Jewish and followed Jewish law which means He honored His mother which is what Catholics do. The CC bases the ever virgin on early church sacred tradition but you are no longer catholic so you do not have to believe this but you should call her the blessed Mary to honor her as the bible says.
I believe He does too. He tells us not to interpret the Holy Scripture without the churches aid

As far as being the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (you forgot to include “the”), what does it say about your concept of truth when you rely on spurious documents for some of your doctrines (and dogmas)? Doesn’t a pillar and foundation hold something up (like “the Truth”)?

Scripture says to Obey the leaders of the Church. Which church is this that existed almost 2000 years ago and still exist today. I think you need to find this church.

If the Bereans checked Paul’s teaching against the OT Scriptures, then how much more should we rely on the NT (and all of Scripture) to check out and verify Church doctrines and dogmas?

 

[TerryG]

The following from the CCC clearly describes the virgin birth and the Church’s celebration of "Mary, Ever-Virgin"as regards to faith and our salvation. Read this with the faith of a “child of God”

499"The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish His mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.” And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-Virgin”

500 "Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact, James and Joseph, “brothers of Jesus” are the sons of another Mary. They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.

503 "Mary’s virginity manifists God’s absolute initiative in the Incarnation. Jesus has only God as Father. "He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which He assumed… He is naturally Son of the Father as to His divinity and naturally son of the mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures.

504 Jesus is concieved by the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary’s womb because he is the new Adam, who inaugurates the new creation: “The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.” From His conception, Christ’s humanity is filled with the Holy Spirit, for God “gives him the Spirit without measure.” From “his fullness” as the head of redeemed humanity “we have all received, grace upon grace.”

505 By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Hoy Spirit through faith. “How can this be?” Participation in the divine life arises "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit’s gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God is fulfilled perfectly in Mary’s virginal motherhood.

506 Mary is a virgin because her virgnity is the sign of her faith "unadulterated by any doubt, and of the undivided gift of herself to God’s will. It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Savior: Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ.

507 At once virgin and mother, Mary is the symbol and the most perfect realization of the church: “the Church indeed… by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By preaching and baptism she brings forth sons, who are conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of God, to a new and immortal life. She herself is a virgin, who keeps in its entirety and purity the faith she pledged to her spouse.”

The Lord be with you!

 

[DennyO]

One thing that puzzles me about all faiths, ours included, is the tendency to get wrapped up in finding answwers to strictly academic questions. I guess the old expression is “calculating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin”.

This question is an example. Regardless of the answer to this question, does it change our understanding of Jesus or his plan for us even an iota?

It seems there is enough in Scripture that is clearly spelled out that gives us a guide to living, and its not really worth our while to dwell on the unknowns simply out of curiosity. I am saying that as a curious person! Surely, nothing makes our faith look less relevant than these types of questions and arguments.

Inevitably, it leads to endless arguments as people try to weave together a complex rationale and their opponent looks for chinks in the rationale. But, if the question itself does not lead to anything of substance, why not spend ones time looking for the specifics that help guide one to living the here and now?

There are many aspects of devotion to Mary that I find of this nature.

I see it as well in that other huge argument between Catholics and evangelical Protestants, being whether faith is sufficient for salvation or if good works are required. But, we can all agree, supported by Scripture, that faith without good works is a hollow virtue, its lifeless. And, to be sure, I see devoted Catholics and Protestants motivated to give of themselves for others, driven by their faith. I have to ask, if one is so wrapped in that question, is it because they are stingy and only want to meet God half way, to do the barest minimum for salvation? That sure does not come across as a Christian mindset!

 

[TerryG]

Regardless of the answer to this question, does it change our understanding of Jesus or his plan for us even an iota? !

I truly believe that understaning the doctrine of “Blessed Mary, Ever - Virgin” does change our understanding of Jesus, and His plan for us.

 

[diggerdomer]

I truly believe that understaning the doctrine of “Blessed Mary, Ever - Virgin” does change our understanding of Jesus, and His plan for us.

In what way?

 

[Des]

In what way?

Her Spouse was the Holy Spirit allowing for a deeper understanding of Her role as Mother of the Universal Church, being the Bride of Christ.