How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?

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For myself, I certainly hope that perfect understanding of the holy trinity is not a prerequisite to worshiping God.

Frankly, the a true understanding of the holy trinity remains a mystery to me.
 
Actually, Catholics are not bound to hold those things that are not de fide teachings of the Church. The Church in the past has NEVER said the muslims worship the same God.
Why the Church chose a particular time to proclaim a particular nuance of an eternal truth is not relevant.

The Church has NEVER said that Muslims worship a different god, and has made it clear now that they do worship the same God.
 
Sorry. You can keep hitting the protestants over the head with your Eucharist analogy…but it is apples and oranges. Protestants are Christians. They believe in Jesus Christ.
But some of them deny Him in the Eucharist.

Is this not still the same Jesus they are worshipping? :yup:
 
Yes I do.
I know what VII was trying to do…I don’t think it worked too well.
Thank you. I appreciate that. You are also free to believe that muslims worship the same God as the Christians.
Again. I get it quite well. Let us look at St John again:

I and the Father are one.
Jn 10:30
  1. It’s not for us to judge an Ecumenical Council of the Churchl.
  2. Of course Christ and the Father are one. And it is the One that the Abrahamic religions worship.
  3. Just because people do not understand the Trinity does not mean they do not worship the One.
  4. And wherever people seek the One, or Truth, or Goodness or Beauty then they are searching for our God. Just read the Confessions of St. Augustine.
 
Most of our teachings are not infallibly defined.
Indeed.

I find the question, “Is [A] infallible?” with the implication being, “then am I allowed to disobey [A] since it’s not infallible” to be rather cheeky.

As apologist Mark Shea states, (paraphrasing): it reeks of Adult Minimum Daily Requirement theology.

IOW: what’s the minimum amount of the fullness of truth that I need to consent to in order to be considered a good Christian?

And for any lover of Jesus, it’s the exact wrong question to ask.

No lover ever asks, “What’s the minimum amount of time I need to spend with you in order to be considered your boyfriend?” (Or if he did, he certainly wouldn’t be your boyfriend for long, eh? :D)

Or, to use another image from Scripture: asking if [A] is infallible is like a child asking his mother, “Do you *really *mean that I have to brush my teeth this morning, or was it only kind of a suggestion? I mean, really, how firmly did you mean it? And what happens if I don’t obey it?”

Cheeky!
 
Indeed.

I find the question, “Is [A] infallible?” with the implication being, “then am I allowed to disobey [A] since it’s not infallible” to be rather cheeky.

As apologist Mark Shea states, (paraphrasing): it reeks of Adult Minimum Daily Requirement theology.

IOW: what’s the minimum amount of the fullness of truth that I need to consent to in order to be considered a good Christian?

And for any lover of Jesus, it’s the exact wrong question to ask.

No lover ever asks, “What’s the minimum amount of time I need to spend with you in order to be considered your boyfriend?” (Or if he did, he certainly wouldn’t be your boyfriend for long, eh? :D)

Or, to use another image from Scripture: asking if [A] is infallible is like a child asking his mother, “Do you *really *mean that I have to brush my teeth this morning, or was it only kind of a suggestion? I mean, really, how firmly did you mean it? And what happens if I don’t obey it?”

Cheeky!
Its a great point. And it applies so very well on this topic. One might also ask "what is the minimum one must believe in order to worship the one, true God? Apparently one must accept the whole enchilada, understanding God as a Trinity of Persons and know that Christ suffered and died for their sins or they are worshiping a false God.

Posts on this thread have gone so far as to say that the Jews now worship a false God because they do not accept Christ as the Messiah. They worshiped the true God prior to the incarnation of Christ, and now, inexplicably, they worship a false god.

So the minimum standard seems to apply when it comes to Christianity, but the maximum standard when applied to non-Christians. 🤷
 
St John has already done that for you.
“Allah forbid that he should have a son!” (Sura 4:171, Koran)

**“**Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.”( 1 John 2:23, Bible)
As I mentioned in my original post, there is a difference between acknowledging God and “having” the Father, or betwen knowing of God and knowing him, or between speculative and affective knowledge.
 
:eek: Wow! I don’t get that very often here…actually, I usually get the opposite!!! 🙂

I said that, though, because the more I learned about our Catholic faith the more I realized that the simple, basically elementary positions that most Catholics never get past finally get to a point where they simply don’t satisfy any longer. Learning on your own via books and the internet is a double-edged sword; you have to be careful with what you learn and make sure you learn it correctly. CAF was very enlightening because of certain very knowledgeable posters and,** most especially, that pesky Franciscan Brother Jay! Brother Jay’s extensive knowledge of the Church and theology has really been a boon to everyone here. (We should all be very grateful to him).**

My point is that the Catholic faith is much deeper than the simple Baltimore Catechisms and it is much more than codes, canons encyclicals. It often times takes more than an hour or two searching the internet to understand her teachings.
👍👍👍

Only in Heaven will Brother Jay know what he has done for me and how he has helped to save me from myself.
 
I am a non-believer so my opinion is not worth much, but here it is.

To those that think Muslims (among others) do not worship the same God/one true God as Christians bc they deny the trinity, consider the history of the doctrine of the trinity. In the first couple centuries after Jesus lived, weren’t there lots of heresies that were condemned (eventually) by the Catholic/Christian Church? I am referring to beliefs like Arianism and Sabellianism.

Would you say the Arians et al also did not worship the one true God? Their understanding of God/Jesus was different than yours, but surely you would not deny they worshipped the same God. Their understanding of God was different, but it was still the God of Abraham right? So it seems to me that Muslims, Jews, and even a generic monotheist who does not practice a religion believe in the same one true God. It’s just not as accurate or complete as the regular Christian idea of God.

Those are my thoughts. Maybe I’m wrong.

:twocents:
 
I am a non-believer so my opinion is not worth much, but here it is.

To those that think Muslims (among others) do not worship the same God/one true God as Christians bc they deny the trinity, consider the history of the doctrine of the trinity. In the first couple centuries after Jesus lived, weren’t there lots of heresies that were condemned (eventually) by the Catholic/Christian Church? I am referring to beliefs like Arianism and Sabellianism.

Would you say the Arians et al also did not worship the one true God? Their understanding of God/Jesus was different than yours, but surely you would not deny they worshipped the same God. Their understanding of God was different, but it was still the God of Abraham right? So it seems to me that Muslims, Jews, and even a generic monotheist who does not practice a religion believe in the same one true God. It’s just not as accurate or complete as the regular Christian idea of God.

Those are my thoughts. Maybe I’m wrong.

:twocents:
From the Catholic perspective you are quite right as been said here. At least the part on the Jews and Muslims.
 
Its a great point. And it applies so very well on this topic. One might also ask "what is the minimum one must believe in order to worship the one, true God? Apparently one must accept the whole enchilada, understanding God as a Trinity of Persons and know that Christ suffered and died for their sins or they are worshiping a false God.
But, peculiarly, one need not worship Him in the Eucharist in order to be worshipping the same God, according to some posters here.

Why the line gets drawn at the Trinity and not the Eucharist…I have no idea. :confused:
 
But, peculiarly, one need not worship Him in the Eucharist in order to be worshipping the same God, according to some posters here.

Why the line gets drawn at the Trinity and not the Eucharist…I have no idea. :confused:
Yes. The focus of Christian worship since the Apostles, the source and summit of the Christian faith; so important, really, that if we had no Eucharist we would have no Catholic Church (and no Eastern Orthodox and no Protestants), and yet it is tossed aside as something non-essential to being Christian. Yes, very strange.
 
That’s being very reductionist.

So why should the church teach at all? Maybe she should just leave everything to everyone’s interpretation?

When the Pope teaches with two thousand two hundred and twenty one Bishops that a certain thing is a certain way then we should perk up our ears and listen very carefully. And if we cannot understand WHY they are saying X, we should at least assent to X. Assent means
I can’t figure out how they arrived at this destination, but I will just follow the road map they set out.

Not to assent is a sin.

BTW Nostra Aetate’s teaching on Islam was repeated in the Dogmatic Constitution,* Lumen Gentium*
One could reasonably ask the question whether or not this had been taught in the Tradition of the Church prior to Vatican II. I know that Vatican II is not supposed to have taught any new doctrine, so if this position does indeed rise to the level of doctrine which one must assent to under the pain of sin, then it stands to reason that it should have been taught prior to the council.

I’m not trying to be that guy, I honestly do not know if it has been taught prior to Vatican II, or if this teaching rises to the level of doctrine or not.
 
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense? How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?
Quote:
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.
(Emphasis mine)
Couple of comments - you note the emphasis is yours. And then you ask how Catholics and Muslims adore the same God. So, you have equated One God and Same God.

However, clearly, they do not have the same understanding of God. As noted variously in other comments, neither do the Jews. The Jews did rather famously call for Jesus’ crucifixion. Yet, we do assert that the Jews were worshiping God the Father, first person of the Blessed Trinity. Or, since the three persons all share the same substance, and are simply God, the Jews worship the same God.

Still, the document does not say Muslims worship the same God. I cannot over stress that the selection of words is of great import - you have chosen to interpret one God as same God - but I stress again, the document does not say we worship the same God. And why not? Because we don’t have the same faith. We have a Trinitarian faith, they do not.

Neither, as noted multiple times in the above posts, do the Jews - yet, we all trace back to Abraham - and a monotheistic religion is the result. Now, if both Jews and Moslems were also Christian, but teaching their particular take on God, they would in fact be heretics. But, you can’t be a heretic if you don’t profess the same faith. And I think this is the issue. They may very well worship the same God, but they certainly don’t have the same faith. So for me the resolution is to not go beyond the evidence and assert that the term “one God” is synonymous with “same faith”. I think this is what you have done by taking “one God” and asking about “same God”.

There is, after all, One God. Not having a Trinitarian understanding of One God is certainly a problem and so you are correct in what I take to be your basic assertion: they are not worshiping the same God in that they do not share our Trinitarian faith. But, again, the document does not claim they share our faith - so, for me the common sense response is to recognize an attempt at ecumenism for what it is, and not be alarmed that somehow Nostra Aetate has equated Catholicism and Islam -

Side note, there are a lot of translations of Letter XXI from St. Gregory VII , which Nostra Aetate references, on the internet. Many translate a portion of that letter as asserting that we worship the “same God”, however, the Latin word is unum which means “one”.

A lot of the websites quoting and using the word “same” also seem to be of the bent that Catholics are the Anti-Church, or that Vatican II was the Anti-Council, etc. Needless to say, it works to the benefit of the arguments of those of that mind set to assert Catholics, or post Vatican II Catholics, are equating Catholicism and Islam.

Frater Bovious
 
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn’t my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah’s “prophet”. Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah–the father/son relationship and divinity–Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)
Acts 13: 9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, 10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
 
Couple of comments - you note the emphasis is yours. And then you ask how Catholics and Muslims adore the same God. So, you have equated One God and Same God.

However, clearly, they do not have the same understanding of God. As noted variously in other comments, neither do the Jews. The Jews did rather famously call for Jesus’ crucifixion. Yet, we do assert that the Jews were worshiping God the Father, first person of the Blessed Trinity. Or, since the three persons all share the same substance, and are simply God, the Jews worship the same God.

Still, the document does not say Muslims worship the same God. I cannot over stress that the selection of words is of great import - you have chosen to interpret one God as same God - but I stress again, the document does not say we worship the same God. And why not? Because we don’t have the same faith. We have a Trinitarian faith, they do not.

Neither, as noted multiple times in the above posts, do the Jews - yet, we all trace back to Abraham - and a monotheistic religion is the result. Now, if both Jews and Moslems were also Christian, but teaching their particular take on God, they would in fact be heretics. But, you can’t be a heretic if you don’t profess the same faith. And I think this is the issue. They may very well worship the same God, but they certainly don’t have the same faith. So for me the resolution is to not go beyond the evidence and assert that the term “one God” is synonymous with “same faith”. I think this is what you have done by taking “one God” and asking about “same God”.

There is, after all, One God. Not having a Trinitarian understanding of One God is certainly a problem and so you are correct in what I take to be your basic assertion: they are not worshiping the same God in that they do not share our Trinitarian faith. But, again, the document does not claim they share our faith - so, for me the common sense response is to recognize an attempt at ecumenism for what it is, and not be alarmed that somehow Nostra Aetate has equated Catholicism and Islam -

Side note, there are a lot of translations of Letter XXI from St. Gregory VII , which Nostra Aetate references, on the internet. Many translate a portion of that letter as asserting that we worship the “same God”, however, the Latin word is unum which means “one”.

A lot of the websites quoting and using the word “same” also seem to be of the bent that Catholics are the Anti-Church, or that Vatican II was the Anti-Council, etc. Needless to say, it works to the benefit of the arguments of those of that mind set to assert Catholics, or post Vatican II Catholics, are equating Catholicism and Islam.

Frater Bovious
But NA does say that the Muslims submit to God as Abraham did, no? Is that not the same in the Latin? How many gods, and which ones, do you imagine Abraham submitted himself to? How can someone worship an entirely different deity and yet adore with us, and moreover also submit themselves to the God of Abraham, who IS the same God we worship?
 
Yes. The focus of Christian worship since the Apostles, the source and summit of the Christian faith; so important, really, that if we had no Eucharist we would have no Catholic Church (and no Eastern Orthodox and no Protestants), and yet it is tossed aside as something non-essential to being Christian. Yes, very strange.
I’m confused. Are you saying that the Eucharist is tossed aside as not essential to Christianity by the Apostolic Churches?

If you’re talking about the weekly adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, one can say that Christianity continues to be Christianity without this. However, we must say that the Eucharist as in the liturgy is central to the faith of the Apostolic Churches. Without the liturgy, the Apostolic Churches cease to be.
One could reasonably ask the question whether or not this had been taught in the Tradition of the Church prior to Vatican II. I know that Vatican II is not supposed to have taught any new doctrine, so if this position does indeed rise to the level of doctrine which one must assent to under the pain of sin, then it stands to reason that it should have been taught prior to the council.

I’m not trying to be that guy, I honestly do not know if it has been taught prior to Vatican II, or if this teaching rises to the level of doctrine or not.
There was never a question of whether or not the Jews, Muslims and Christians worshiped the one true God. This sort of got convoluted in there over the centuries. But the Church has never formally declared such a thing.

The term that was used was infidels. Which really means those outside the faith. We have to remember that this was not the same as heretic. Heretics were Catholics who embraced some error contrary to dogma.

As to assent, we have to assent to the Church’s understanding that the Muslims and the Jews worship the one true God and that we share a common sonship through Abraham. First of all, the line of Abraham cannot be denied. That’s de fide. Catholicism is grafted onto the line of Abraham. So is Islam. The line of Abraham does exist. It’s not a product of someone’s imagination. Therefore, the Jewish faith in the one true God cannot be denied. That faith flows forward through history and it reaches its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

Here is where we come to forks in the road, for lack of a better image. Those who understand that the faith rooted in Abraham finds its fulfillment in Jesus Christ and those who do not.

Those who do not, continue to worship the one true God. God did not change from the moment of the Incarnation forward. The God that Mary and Joseph worshiped before the annunciation is the same God that they worshiped after the annunciation. This is the God of Abraham.

Six centuries later come the Muslims who also worship the God of Abraham. Like the Jews, they do not see the fulfillment of the covenant in Jesus Christ. However, that does not change who God is.

In other words, God does not change, because the Trinity has been fully disclosed. He continues to be the same God.

It is not God who changed, but man’s understanding of God that changed. Through the incarnation, cross and resurrection, we come to understand that the God of Abraham is exists within a community of three persons. Abraham didn’t know this either.

The ignorance of the Jews and the Muslims is the same as that of the Patriarchs. One can say that they’re stuck. Their understanding of God has not progressed. Therefore, it’s an incomplete understanding, not an incomplete faith. Their faith in the one true God is very real and very correct. There is only one true God.

Where they and Christians part company is when it comes to the fulfillment of the covenant. They have a very difficult time wrapping their head around the fact that Jesus is the fulfillment of the covenant. We’re not making matters any easier for the Holy Father when we start saying that the covenant was revoked. It was never revoked. It was fulfilled. That’s not the same thing. God does not revoke his word.

This is why the Church hopes for the salvation of the Jewish people and by extension, the Muslims. The covenant with Abraham has been fulfilled. When they come to the understanding of this great mystery, then the separation between us will come to an end.

What the Church discourages us to do is to antagonize them into conversion. But to anyone with common sense, it stands to reason that if you antagonize someone or badger them, you will only push them away, not draw them closer. If you’re hostile toward them, you really push them way back. Mistrust creates a very thick barrier to penetrate.

We have to assent to the Council’s statement. As Pope Benedict has said. It’s not up for grabs. Everything that the council said must be accepted as truth. This was his statement to the SSPX leadership. It’s pretty obvious that this cannot be a requirement for one group of Catholics, but not for all.

Pope Paul VI made it very clear that the pope had the right to command assent by virtue of his authority, not only on matters of faith and morals, but on any matter pertaining to Catholicism and Catholics have a moral duty to obey.

In this case, not to assent is not exactly heresy, though it can lead to heresy. It is defiance and a break with the primacy. If the primacy demands that we assent to this and we say that we will not, then we have raised the bar. The issue is no longer the Muslims and Jews. The issue now is the Catholic and the Pope. Will you or will you not submit to your pope?
 
But NA does say that the Muslims submit to God as Abraham did, no? Is that not the same in the Latin? How many gods, and which ones, do you imagine Abraham submitted himself to? How can someone worship an entirely different deity and yet adore with us, and moreover also submit themselves to the God of Abraham, who IS the same God we worship?
Nostra Aetate and the Muslims themselves in dialogue with the Holy See acknowledge that there is only one God to be worshiped. That God is the God of Abraham. This has been discussed ad nauseam between the Catholic Church and Islam through the Council for Catholic and Muslim Relations. The Council did not pull this out of the Pope’s mitre.

Before Vatican II and long after Vatican II, the Vatican and the Muslims have been having this conversation. The Vatican is satisfied that the Muslims do worship the one true God. My question is simple.

If the Vatican is satisfied with the answer, why shouldn’t we be?

Is it realistic to believe that Muslims have to explain their faith in the one true God to the satisfaction of one billion Catholics?

Do one billion Catholics even understand the nature of God?

If the Vatican says that it is satisfied with the answer to a question on any matter, what happens to the Church when every Catholic starts to second-guess the Vatican?

What happens to the Church when the pope himself is second-guessed?

We have five popes: Bl. John XXIII, Ven. Paul VI, John Paul I, Bl. John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Of the four deceased, three are on their way to canonization. That’s not a bad record for 50 years. They were all faithful to the Gospel and to the Truth that is revealed through the Church. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be on their way to canonization. Two of them have proven miracles under their belt. Bl. John Paul may have a few more, which if proven, will qualify him for canonization within the next year or so. Pope John Paul I was a very holy man. Don’t be surprised if his cause comes up soon.

Long before these men became popes, they had reputations for their scholarship, orthodoxy, fidelity to the Church, and their desire to mend fences. Let’s just focus on their intelligence. These were not ordinary parish priests with basic theological education. These were scholars. I’m trying to think if any of them was a parish priest who any significant length of time. I think not.

The point is that they are not dumb men. If they look back at what has been said in the past and they look at what they’re seeing and hearing now and they can see the continuity, is there any reason not to trust them?

Their moral and virtue are impeccable. Their knowledge of the Church and theology is top of the line. They can give Aquinas a run for his money, especially Pope Benedict. We know of a few mistakes in Thomas’ theology. We know of none in Ratzinger’s theology.

Anyway, I got sidetracked. The point is, what’s not to trust?

Are we willing to sit and do all of the talking, exploring, and research that these men have put into this for 50 solid years? I’m not.

If they say that we worship the one true God and they are convinced and they can prove it, I’m not interested in seeing the proof. I’m not interested in reading 25 volumes of theology to get to the point. I’ll take their word for it, just like I take their word when they tell me that there is such a thing as transubstantiation.
 
I’m confused. Are you saying that the Eucharist is tossed aside as not essential to Christianity by the Apostolic Churches?
No–not by the apostolic churches. By some here who want to proclaim that Muslims are worshipping a different God for denying the Trinity yet also being unwilling to claim, by the same reasoning, that some Protestants are worshipping a different Christ for denying the Eucharist.

We profess that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, like we do.
And that Protestants worship Jesus, like we do.

Both groups, in their denials of particular Catholic dogmas, have a lack of fullness of truth.

Yet we do not proclaim that they are worshipping a different Godhead.

However, for some peculiar reason, some here are holding an inconsistent standard:

Muslims do NOT worship the one true God, because they deny the Trinity.

But

Christians still worship the same Jesus, even if they deny the Eucharist.

We are trying to point out this inconsistency in their reasoning.
 
Then by logic you have to assign which entity the Muslims worship. There are not many categories in the supernatural realm. If they do not worship the one and true God then they must worship the demon or at best the angel.

It cannot be the demon or even angel because their understanding of the attributes of God is very close to us except for Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

There are ninety nine attributes of the Muslims Allah. Among them Allah is the Creator, the merciful, forgiving, graceful, generous and practically what we attribute to the Triune God. That cannot be the demon or angel as they are not the Creator of the heaven and earth. So we have to be realistic about this. Their difference in belief does not change the truth of who and what God is. We can say that they have false prophet that did not reveal the fullness of truth as we know it or that their Scripture is in error but there is still one Creator of heaven and earth. And the attributes of Allah that they believe can only refer to that one God unless we can find another supernatural entity that fits them. We are faced with that reality no matter how much we disagree with the Muslims theologically.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Simple as that. No need for fancy interpretation. If you do not accept what Jesus did for you at the cross you will NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. They can say what they want. Romans 3:4 “God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;” This is not my words, nor my interpretation. God makes it very plain what is expected. They do not believe Jesus is God. Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Do not rely on man which includes me, yourself, your own understanding, the Catholic Church or any other Church. Amen.
 
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