How can it be "Heaven" if you can't be with the ones you love?

[mosher]

This doesn’t answer the OPs question. I’m not sure what this answers. To love Jesus does not mean indifference to our loved one’s on earth in any way.

I can relate strongly to the OPs dilema here for I share it.
My only suggestion to the OP might be. Pray with all your heart soul and mind often often often for those you care for and trust in God’s mercy.

It is the direct answer to the OPs original question. The love of God can in fact mean the forsaking of our loved ones on earth in certain instances. When Jesus gave the command to the disciples to even shake the dust from their feet of those who did not receive them He did not exclude the family. In the Christian dispensation the idea that “blood is thicker than water” is absurd. This is why Jesus called those who did the will of the Father his mother and brothers and this is also why He stated emphatically that he did not come to bring peace but rather to bring the sword even to the point that a family would be torn apart. But again He reminds us that if anyone loves even his own parents more than Him then they are not worthy of Him.

 

[dljl]

Trust us, you won’t be sad.

First, because without your physical brain…you won’t have any “memories” .

Please site your source for that statement.

 

[tequilamac]

It is the direct answer to the OPs original question. The love of God can in fact mean the forsaking of our loved ones on earth in certain instances. When Jesus gave the command to the disciples to even shake the dust from their feet of those who did not receive them He did not exclude the family. In the Christian dispensation the idea that “blood is thicker than water” is absurd. This is why Jesus called those who did the will of the Father his mother and brothers and this is also why He stated emphatically that he did not come to bring peace but rather to bring the sword even to the point that a family would be torn apart. But again He reminds us that if anyone loves even his own parents more than Him then they are not worthy of Him.

Well said and I couldn’t agree more.

By the way, if we are loving God with everything we’ve got so that our eyes are only on him, ummm, then we are in Heaven with those that we love.

 

[tequilamac]

Trust us, you won’t be sad.

First, because without your physical brain…you won’t have any “memories” God doesn’t delibrately infuse…QUOTE]

Wow. Didn’t I see that happen in the movie “The Alien”? Something sucked out her bad thoughts from her physical brain and replaced them with something else? No, no, it wasn’t the alien it was X Files. You must be a sci fi buff.

 

[Pius_X]

God draws straight with crooked lines. [Father Andrew Greeley]

 

[mosher]

God draws straight with crooked lines. [Father Andrew Greeley]

Very true however the context of this quote does not negate objective truth. However, what it refers to is our perception of truth at times is skewed so what is straight we see as crooked.

For instance we can say that in life we tend to bounce around from place to place and act to act and in the end we look back and see that God had a plan for us but it took forever for us to cooperate with it. Yet this refers to our earthly life. Once death happens we are separated from the temporally of this life and into the eternity of heaven where a succession of actions and thus merit cease to have any meaning.

 

[Mijoy2]

It is the direct answer to the OPs original question. The love of God can in fact mean the forsaking of our loved ones on earth in certain instances. When Jesus gave the command to the disciples to even shake the dust from their feet of those who did not receive them He did not exclude the family. In the Christian dispensation the idea that “blood is thicker than water” is absurd. This is why Jesus called those who did the will of the Father his mother and brothers and this is also why He stated emphatically that he did not come to bring peace but rather to bring the sword even to the point that a family would be torn apart. But again He reminds us that if anyone loves even his own parents more than Him then they are not worthy of Him.

Sorry I just see this differently. In fact I find the cavalier nature of this line of thinking disturbing. We must TRY to love and accept Jesus above all else I agree. The way I attempt to rationalize this to myself (because it is irrational – I’m sure you’ll disagree) is to attempt to understand that all love comes from God. All love IS God. Therefore we cannot love without Him. I think He is instructing us of this profound thought. Not, that we are to foresake somehow those on earth who do not accept Him. Or that we are not to feel deep pain and despair at the thought of some loved one ultimately not going to heaven.

Again, I agree with the OP. This is a paradox that, in my opinion, is unanswerable given what has been revealed.

I contend it easy for us to say “I love God more then my loved one’s on earth” because we are commanded to through the scripture you sited and refered to. But, is it practical and honest? I conceived my children, I was there each and every day through my wife’s pregnancy, I was there when they were born, I felt each and every pain they felt 10 fold. I hope and pray each day that they have are safe and that they grow closer to Jesus. I simply can’t bear the thought of anything painful happening to them.

How do I know God? Through His revelation, I suppose would be the most logical answer. I read these forums, I read scripture, I read apologetics books,I pray and I go to Mass. I pray and pray and pray again for a deeper and richer and more genuine faith.

Jesus gave up two commandments. To love God with all our heart mind and soul and to love our neighbor. I have to try to love God. And I believe He understands this. I inherently love my loved ones. I simply can’t help but not to.

I can say I love God more then my children. I can try to mean it. I can try to understand it. But I’d be dishonest if I were to say I in fact DO understand it. I’d also be dishonest if I were to say, thus far, I have been successful at it.

I have trouble with how this can be glossed over in such a cavalier manner by anyone who has a child.

 

[tequilamac]

Sorry I just see this differently. In fact I find the cavalier nature of this line of thinking disturbing. We must TRY to love and accept Jesus above all else I agree. The way I attempt to rationalize this to myself (because it is irrational – I’m sure you’ll disagree) is to attempt to understand that all love comes from God. All love IS God. Therefore we cannot love without Him. I think He is instructing us of this profound thought. Not, that we are to foresake somehow those on earth who do not accept Him. Or that we are not to feel deep pain and despair at the thought of some loved one ultimately not going to heaven.

Again, I agree with the OP. This is a paradox that, in my opinion, is unanswerable given what has been revealed.

I contend it easy for us to say “I love God more then my loved one’s on earth” because we are commanded to through the scripture you sited and refered to. But, is it practical and honest? I conceived my children, I was there each and every day through my wife’s pregnancy, I was there when they were born, I felt each and every pain they felt 10 fold. I hope and pray each day that they have are safe and that they grow closer to Jesus. I simply can’t bear the thought of anything painful happening to them.

How do I know God? Through His revelation, I suppose would be the most logical answer. I read these forums, I read scripture, I read apologetics books,I pray and I go to Mass. I pray and pray and pray again for a deeper and richer and more genuine faith.

Jesus gave up two commandments. To love God with all our heart mind and soul and to love our neighbor. I have to try to love God. And I believe He understands this. I inherently love my loved ones. I simply can’t help but not to.

I can say I love God more then my children. I can try to mean it. I can try to understand it. But I’d be dishonest if I were to say I in fact DO understand it. I’d also be dishonest if I were to say, thus far, I have been successful at it.

I have trouble with how this can be glossed over in such a cavalier manner by anyone who has a child.

#1 Jesus already told us not to love anyone more than Him.
#2. It is rather too late to worry about your loved one’s destination when you are in Heaven. If one is really worried about what happens to their loved ones, it seems they need to do something about it while still alive, not after. Is everyone waiting to get to Heaven before they start being concerned with their loved ones or what?

 

[Mharie]

I was taught in school that being in the presence of God transcends mere human emotion, so we wouldn’t give our earthly loved ones a thought. A very liberal priest who used to come to the school told us there was absolutely no doubt that Hell existed, but that only a fool would believe that God would allow anyone to go there!

 

[trogiah]

I contend it easy for us to say “I love God more then my loved one’s on earth” because we are commanded to through the scripture you sited and refered to. But, is it practical and honest? I conceived my children, I was there each and every day through my wife’s pregnancy, I was there when they were born, I felt each and every pain they felt 10 fold. I hope and pray each day that they have are safe and that they grow closer to Jesus. I simply can’t bear the thought of anything painful happening to them.

Jesus gave up two commandments. To love God with all our heart mind and soul and to love our neighbor. I have to try to love God. And I believe He understands this. I inherently love my loved ones. I simply can’t help but not to.

I have trouble with how this can be glossed over in such a cavalier manner by anyone who has a child.

Having children myself, I believe I understand what you are saying. I still struggle with the ideas expressed here but I would invite you to consider the following as they make some sense to me.

When Jesus says how family relations should be subordinate to one’s relationship to God, he is not being the least bit cavalier about it. When he speaks of the conflict between family members that will result when some seek God’s kingdom and others do not, he is speaking of the greatest struggles that anyone will have to face.

The First Commandment, as stated in Deuteronomy chapter 5, speaks of the punishments that extend down several generations on the children of those who hate God - but that extend many more generations on those who love God.

I am convinced that we are doing our children the greatest favor by seeking God’s kingdom first in our lives. I have heard the saying, and it makes a great deal of sense to me, “The best thing a man can do for his children is love their mother.” But I have come to realize, as important as that is, loving God is something that will last even longer in its affect of my children’s welfare.

I think I should add that loving God is not just about saying “I love God therefore I will go to church and recieve the sacraments and support everything the Pope says.” It is not even primarily about that. The rich man didn’t end up suffering as he did because he failed to “observe” the outer trappings of his faith but because for years he walked by a man in desperate need and did nothing to help that man.

Teach your children to be willing to help those in real need.

Teach them that following commandments like “Do not steal”, Do not murder", and “Do not commit adultery” will help keep them from serious harm.

Be an example to your children in those areas.

Seek first God’s kingdom.

There is nothing better you can do for yourself or your spouse or your children.

peace

Jim

 

[mosher]

Sorry I just see this differently. In fact I find the cavalier nature of this line of thinking disturbing. We must TRY to love and accept Jesus above all else I agree. The way I attempt to rationalize this to myself (because it is irrational – I’m sure you’ll disagree) is to attempt to understand that all love comes from God. All love IS God. Therefore we cannot love without Him. I think He is instructing us of this profound thought. Not, that we are to foresake somehow those on earth who do not accept Him. Or that we are not to feel deep pain and despair at the thought of some loved one ultimately not going to heaven.

Yes I strongly disagree because my comment is based on the traditional interpretation of this passage. Perhaps the flaw that you are making is in your statement “all love comes from God.” This is not correct. Rather it is correct to say that all love is ordered toward God. This is very different. Love comes out of the individual and it is directed to the good of the other - God.

Even further we are actually commanded to forsake those who do not accept Him. A perfect example of this is the passage:

And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, as ye go forth out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
(Mat 10:13-15)

also

And another of the disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus saith unto him, Follow me; and leave the dead to bury their own dead.
(Mat 8:21-22)

This teaches us something about what is meant by a healthy detachment in that God is before all else.

Again, I agree with the OP. This is a paradox that, in my opinion, is unanswerable given what has been revealed.

On the contrary there are no paradoxes in our faith. Paradox implies a lack of order in truth but that is contrary to the nature of truth. However, there are mysteries but not paradoxes.

I contend it easy for us to say “I love God more then my loved one’s on earth” because we are commanded to through the scripture you sited and refered to. But, is it practical and honest? I conceived my children, I was there each and every day through my wife’s pregnancy, I was there when they were born, I felt each and every pain they felt 10 fold. I hope and pray each day that they have are safe and that they grow closer to Jesus. I simply can’t bear the thought of anything painful happening to them.

Not being a biological parent I don’t experience that type of attachment. However, my family is very dear to me and I pray often for their salvation. It pains me deeply that some may not enter heaven. However, I have learned (at an early age) that I can only do so much and then it is up to them. I also know that in heaven even if I find family in hell I will rejoice at the mercy of God. One of the flaws that exists in man after the fall is a disordered attachment to family over everyone else. We are taught that we are called to love equally to all. Thus, that love that you have for your children should be the same love that you have for everyone that you meet. This is teaches us many things about the nature of man to man and man to God but it also teaches us the sense of urgency we should have in preaching the gospel to others.

I can say I love God more then my children. I can try to mean it. I can try to understand it. But I’d be dishonest if I were to say I in fact DO understand it. I’d also be dishonest if I were to say, thus far, I have been successful at it.

I have trouble with how this can be glossed over in such a cavalier manner by anyone who has a child.

Whether one has a child or not in irrelevant but you are missing in my comments (perhaps I should be more clear) is the basic fundamental, foundational, premise of the faith. This underlying truth is that our progress toward holiness is a process. Learning to love God above all things is a process. It is in the development of that relationship that this happens. This conversation reminds me of another conversation I had with a close friend and we both agreed on a singular statement about our respective further relationships. We said, “I desire a man/woman who loves God more than he/she loves me.” This is what I expected in a relationship and this is what I apply to all relationships whatever their bond to me. In turn what we learn is that if we love God above all things then our love for others becomes even greater.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

How could it be heaven if the ones you loved were forced by God against their will to be in heaven?

And how could it be heaven if the ones you loved were in heaven even though they hate God, who will certainly be in heaven the one you love most of all. Can you imagine heaven filled with people who hate God, whom you will love above all?

Hi VociMike,
You seem to be thinking along with an idea which occurred to me:
We are all in the presence of God. A lousy pun in Greek and Latin for this state of affairs is ‘para’ ‘Deus’. Written as ‘Paradise’.
Paradise is here and now, and in the life to come.
Paradise is neither Heaven, nor Hell, nor is it Limbo or Purgatory, yet it is, depending on perception, all of these.
The soul totally content will find Heaven in Paradise while the soul not fully content will find Purgatory, or even Limbo. The soul, however who cannot bear to be in the presence of the One God Whom he dispises will find Hell in Paradise, and yes, that soul will experience the Divine as the worst of devils.
Warning, there are many who consider this idea to be heretical.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Sorry but you are mistaken. God cannot go against His Word. The word says that first comes death then the judgement.Once you die its to late to repent. He made a way so that one doesnt have to go to hell. People either recieve or reject Christ…But the good news is that God will still love the one that is judged to spend eternity in hell.

Please IHS, beware.
There is NOTHING which God cannot do.
God is not bound by any higher authority.
We believe in Faith, that God will not do evil.
We pray the God will deliver us from evil.
If we presume to limit the power or freedom of God, then we err close to blasphemy.
What we see as evil, and what God perceives as evil are not necessarily the same.

 

[tequilamac]

Please IHS, beware.
There is NOTHING which God cannot do.
God is not bound by any higher authority.
We believe in Faith, that God will not do evil.
We pray the God will deliver us from evil.
If we presume to limit the power or freedom of God, then we err close to blasphemy.
What we see as evil, and what God perceives as evil are not necessarily the same.

1 2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
4 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6
5 A man named John was sent from God.
7
He came for testimony, 6 to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.
8
He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.
9
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.
11
He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 did not accept him.
12
But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
13
8 who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
14
And the Word became flesh 9 and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.
15
10 John testified to him and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘The one who is coming after me ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’”
16
From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace, 11
17
because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, 12 who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him.

God does not lie. Voco. IHS is exactly correct. When someone tells you God cannot break His Own Word, who was with Him in the beginning and is now and always will be, if you deny this you are calling God a liar and the Word moot. And that is blasphemy There is something God cannot do. Deny His Own Word.

 

[HailMary]

Trust us, you won’t be sad.

First, because without your physical brain…you won’t have any “memories” God doesn’t delibrately infuse..

God is not going to do a Lobotomy when you go to Heaven. This makes zero sense. In fact, the opposite makes more sense.

To answer the question:
How can it be “Heaven” if you can’t be with the ones you love?

The answer is, you will rejoice if all your family is in Hell!
I know it sounds weird, but in Heaven, GOD’S JUSTICE will be revealed to you in such a way that you will see how putting this person in hell, serves God’s greater glory.

We have a very narrow view of how things will play out. Our thought is very earth-bound and because of this limitation, things don’t make sense. At the end of the day (eternity), EVERYTHING will glorify God - that is why we can say nothing “evil” ever really happens. If you admit that true evil has happened, and that God did not will it, then you are saying that there is a creature that has more power than God.

 

[tequilamac]

God is not going to do a Lobotomy when you go to Heaven. This makes zero sense. In fact, the opposite makes more sense.

To answer the question:
How can it be “Heaven” if you can’t be with the ones you love?

The answer is, you will rejoice if all your family is in Hell!
I know it sounds weird, but in Heaven, GOD’S JUSTICE will be revealed to you in such a way that you will see how putting this person in hell, serves God’s greater glory.

We have a very narrow view of how things will play out. Our thought is very earth-bound and because of this limitation, things don’t make sense. At the end of the day (eternity), EVERYTHING will glorify God - that is why we can say nothing “evil” ever really happens. If you admit that true evil has happened, and that God did not will it, then you are saying that there is a creature that has more power than God.

See? There is hope for all you planning to have dinner with in laws this Thanksgiving. When mother in law makes snide comments about your cooking or father in law makes comments about your income, just smile and remember God’s justice and the fact that motherinlaw can’t take her turkey with her even to Hell.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

1 2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Latin reads: ‘God was the Word’

2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be

Sorry, GOD is ALMIGHTY.
There is NOTHING GOD CANNOT DO.
If your god is less than almighty, then your god is less than GOD.
Thus your god is but a demiurge, and you are into gnosticism.
By faith we believe that GOD will not do evil to the creation, but will allow evil to happen within the creation.
It is that simple.
GOD is free to do evil, lie if you like, but we in faith, believe, that to us, GOD will not.
That is the basis of Faith.
If we could be certain, we would not need faith.

 

[tequilamac]

Latin reads: 'God was the Word’Latin has auxiliary verb in present tense, ie, ‘what comes to be’.
Sorry, GOD is ALMIGHTY.
There is NOTHING GOD CANNOT DO.
If your god is less than almighty, then your god is less than GOD.
Thus your god is but a demiurge, and you are into gnosticism.
By faith we believe that GOD will not do evil to the creation, but will allow evil to happen within the creation.
It is that simple.
GOD is free to do evil, lie if you like, but we in faith, believe, that to us, GOD will not.
That is the basis of Faith.
If we could be certain, we would not need faith.

So if you are saying that God can break His Word, you are in effect saying that Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross was nothing and is irrelevant, not lasting or permanent, if God changes His mind later.
If God can break His Own Word, we are all going through the motions of Catholicism in the mere hope that He will not change His mind later.
If God can break His own word, no matter how much we believe in Christ and His actions, if God changes His mind and says okay, I know I said that, but now I’ve changed my mind, forget it, then we are believing in a God who operates on a whimsical basis, like a kid in a sandbox.

So for you the basis of faith is we are kind of hoping that God won’t change His mind later and leave us with empty promises. Wow. Makes Him sound like my boss who offered everyone a Christmas bonus then changed His mind later.
I don’t believe God can break His Own Word.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

So for you the basis of faith is we are kind of hoping that God won’t change His mind later and leave us with empty promises. Wow. Makes Him sound like my boss who offered everyone a Christmas bonus then changed His mind later.
I don’t believe God can break His Own Word.

Dear Friend,
I sympathise with your views. They make the universe a simple and predictable place, but they deny free will.
Very simply, if GOD cannot be evil, then GOD’s goodness is meaningless, for GOD is just an enslaved cypher.
That GOD abstains from evil is a sacrifice on the part of GOD, it is the ‘quo’ in the ‘quid pro quo’ of the Testaments.

 

[mosher]

Dear Friend,
I sympathise with your views. They make the universe a simple and predictable place, but they deny free will.
Very simply, if GOD cannot be evil, then GOD’s goodness is meaningless, for GOD is just an enslaved cypher.
That GOD abstains from evil is a sacrifice on the part of GOD, it is the ‘quo’ in the ‘quid pro quo’ of the Testaments.

This idea stems from a poor understanding of metaphysics. Evil is not a thing and does not in some way give goodness meaning. Rather, evil is a lack of goodness and thus a deprivation. God as such cannot lack any perfection or then He would not be God and therefore God by His very nature cannot do or partake or contain in Himself anything that is evil. This does not just stem from the nature of God but rather also stems from the nature of evil as a lack of being and not a thing in itself.

You are also making a critical (and typical) mistake about the definition of freedom. Freedom properly defined is the ability to choose the good. This is opposed to what is called license which is the ability to equally choose good or evil. This is not freedom as such.