How can it be "Heaven" if you can't be with the ones you love?

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Regret is pain. Pain is not necessarily injury as hurt might be.

Yes. Pain is hurt. And hurt is not sin. Jesus suffered pain because people sinned. Jesus didn’t suffer pain because God sinned.
Voco proTatiano:

So God suffered pain as a result of
1/ creating humanity prior to the deluge, and
2/ attempting to purge humanity with the deluge.

Yes. It’s right there in the King James Scriptures if you want to check it out…
Genesis 6:6:

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

You can also find other examples in the King James too…
1 Samuel 15:35:

And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

But if you’re relying on the King James, you’re going to get a skewered picture of God.

Even the King James gets it right when it says God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.

In other words, when God says something is going to happen it will happen. He may delay it happening by his grace. But it will happen eventually.

You need to understand that God ‘repenting’ has nothing to do with God sinning. God repenting is God witholding the good which man’s sins are preventing.

Other translations do a much better job at translating this aspect of God’s character.
Voco proTatiano:

Both of these actions caused God pain, and both of these actions were caused by God.

No one is doubting that sin causes pain to God the Son. He suffered the pain caused by our sins on the cross too. But these sins were not caused by God. These sins were caused by people who sinned against God.
Voco proTatiano:

Therefore God caused pain to himself.
Causing pain to God is to sin against God.
Therefore God sinned against God.

No. People sinned against God and caused God the Son pain.

More specifically…

God alllowed people the ability to make a choice.
People chose to rebel against God.
Therefore people sinned against God.

People rebelling against God caused Jesus pain.
Voco proTatiano:

It is not complicated.

It is very complicated if the Scriptures repeatedly say that God is good and cannot sin. God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Voco proTatiano:

What is complicated is the circuitoius argument to deny this blatent truth.

Actually, all arguments are circular. That’s how logic works.

But you’re ignoring that fact that God cannot sin in order to make your own arguments work. It is heretical to say that God can sin-- and your own circuitoius argument denies this blatent truth.

In fact, your arguments break down right at this point: God cannot sin.

 

[tequilamac]

Naturally my understanding is human. Any human who claims to have supernatural understanding is a mount bank and a charlatan.
But we are made in the image of God, so our understanding is also in the image of God’s, though a poor shadow thereof, through a glass darkly.

So your God does not share our suffering - I thought that was what God the Father was all about.
What is suffering but pain?
I do not mean injury, that is why I did not say hurt.

I suppose you might call it ‘fundamentalist’, without the capital ‘F’.

I guess without the capital F. Fundamentalists believe lots of crazy stuff but they do not believe God can sin. Sorry. Can you come name what you religion actually is? Heretic you say in your profile. Heretic is not a religion- it is a rejection of truth in a religion.

Yes. I agree with you- it is futile to argue with you . Once your theology has turned God into human only and not divine, yeah it is futile. And that is where your logic has gone. You claim God sins against others and agisnt himself, God “hurts” from His own sins, etc. etc. Then your God is human only with no divine nature attached. So then of course all arguments become futile until some time in the distant future…

 

[ltravis]

I just stumbled on to this thread and my how it has exploded! I think the O.P. is looking for a pastoral response as much as an intellectual one. So in that vain, let me give a couple thoughts. First, I believe those in hell would not choose to come out even if the “doors were unlocked”. I would feel bad having to force a loved one to do something they would not choose to do themselves.

Also, I think that the issue really hinges on the gravity of evil actions in God’s eye. The premise is that hell is for those who reject God. We would all agree that if a loved one who is totally hateful to God and all people and knows full well what he is doing, that we would not hold much remorse for them if they wind up in hell. However, the question is where the line is drawn by which a person rejects God enough to not deserve union with him and us in Heaven. I have raised in another thread that sin is only mortal when we have full knowledge and consent. However, in nearly all sin, our knowledge and consent is somewhat compromised by our human weakness. At what point is mere human weakness not a good enough “excuse”? Maybe most sin is not as sinful as we think (of course maybe it *is *given that we have access to grace and confession to combat all weaknesses and failings).

Anyway, I bring it up because when we envision loved ones in hell, we think of them as people who haven’t appeared to be truly hateful and rejecting God, people who have shown a lot of redeeming (pardon the pun) qualities. What it must come down to is our reassurance that God is completely just but also all loving and merciful. We must remain vigilant in our efforts to come closer to God and bring others along with us, knowing it is not and isn’t expected to be easy. However, we should take assurance and comfort in God’s mercy, too.

Does that help?

LT

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Just because you don’t love or believe in G-d, doesn’t mean you hate him.

**It does - even in this life. Not that that is relevant to the thread. There is no basis in Scripture or any Church’s teaching for a third possibility. AFAIK, only post-Biblical Apocrypha & works influenced by them - Dante’s Commedia, for example: see Inferno 3 - suggest that there is a third choice: & in Dante, those who neither hate nor love are condemned; because that kind of refusal to choose, is fundamentally egoistic - it is a choice, and not one for God. **​

Even if we hate someone, it is possible to let go of the hate.

Not after this life - & the life to come is what I meant, since that is what the thread is about.​

It is impossible to stop loving someone; for if you did, it was never love in the first place.

**Even if that’s so (I’m not sure it is), that doesn’t affect the point at issue: that it would be unspeakably cruel of God to compel those who hate Him to be saved. ## **​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

In the end, though, it will come down to those who love God and those who hate Him. And we will find that many who said they didn’t believe still loved Him by their actions, and many who said they believed still hated Him by their actions.

​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

batteddy;1673107:

Trust us, you won’t be sad.

First, because without your physical brain…you won’t have any “memories” God doesn’t delibrately infuse…

Wow. Didn’t I see that happen in the movie “The Alien”? Something sucked out her bad thoughts from her physical brain and replaced them with something else? No, no, it wasn’t the alien it was X Files. You must be a sci fi buff.

It sounds more like something from “The Stepford Wives” - or possibly “The Green Mile”​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Excuse Me! I called you a heretic because that is what you described yourself as in your own profile under religion. How ridiculous do you want to be?

Secondly, I do not see any reason to close this aspect of the thread because others disagree with you. On the contrary it is right on topic.

Catholics do not believe in predestination therefore there is not much you can tell me of uncertainty.

**They do if they are Augustinians or Thomists - even Molinists believe in a sort of “predestination-Lite”. **​

**A mix of ideas, Catholic & not: **

Predestination and Free Will
The whole Protestant concept of justification is based on predestination. … Catholic doctrine is fairly straightforward about what you need to do to be …
geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/predest.html

Predestination (Calvinism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Calvinist doctrine of predestination is sometimes referred to as … Catechism of the Catholic Church #600 says - To God, all moments of time are …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_(Calvinism

Part 2: THE SECRET OF MARY AND PREDESTINATION by Sr. Thomas Mary, O.P.
Catholic Doctrine defines predestination in this way:. God freely resolves from all eternity to call certain persons to beatitude and therefore to endow …
christendom-awake.org/pages/mcbride/secret-2.htm

The Fire and the Rose: Predestination and Grace in Catholic Theology
What I find fascinating in this post is the way it reveals the contradictions among the various positions on grace and predestination in Catholic doctrine …
fireandrose.blogspot.com/2006/09/predestination-and-grace-in-catholic.html

The Biblical Doctrin of Predestination - Page 14
This is the most extensive defense of the Catholic doctrine of salvation that I know of. To show the importance Sungenis puts on the issue of predestination …
home.rochester.rr.com/matthewl/predestination/essay/14.htm

Pontifications » Predestination
Catholic doctrine itself, as defined at Trent, does not admit salvation by faith and … the doctrine of predestination begins to cause problems on which …
catholica.pontifications.net/?page_id=2003

We KNOW God cannot deny Himself because he literally said so in the new testament.

God does not permit evil. God permits free will. And if we use free will to do evil, then there is evil. It does not come from some anti God in the sky or anywhere except us.

Saying God is all good is not limiting. It is actually empowering. For no one and nothing else is perfect and all good.
It is not dualism unless you propose that you are in fact a god who is the god of evil. For evil comes from man.

You made a non statement about the universe.
The nature of the Universe is not the nature of God.

The emptiness of evil is not a metaphysical space like the universe. It is an emptiness of human action. A tornado is not evil. A human being committing mayhem is evil.
A hurricane is not evil. someone deliberately blowing up a dam to drown people is evil.
Your refutations are empty and somewhat ignorant of the difference between physical and supernatural Voco.

You throw around words like dualism as if you know what you are talking of. The words you use are impressive- how you understand them is erroneous.
Peace

 

[melbourne_guy]

This thread is somewhat disturbing. Some of you people sound like psycopaths.
“Dont worry about your parents, you will forget them when you are in heaven.”
This is an illogical conclusion no one has any evidence for and i highly doubt will happen.

“People who choose not to believe in God HATE God therfor they are evil and they would prefer to go to hell.”
Just because someone doesnt believe in God or doesnt go to church doesnt mean they HATE God, what a stupid thing to say.

“When you get to heaven you will become more spiritual and will too agree with Gods enternal punishment for your loved ones.”

I like how people say these things like they’ve already been to heaven. This is also made up, theres no evidence or scripture claiming that once you get to heaven your mind will be expanded and you will be able to see sins like God sees them. The fact that you can sit by and watch the ones who raised you burn forever for not going to confession is socio-pathic. I think the people who make idiotic comments like these come from strictly catholic families who might not have a parent or a loved one who is a cafeteria catholic or athiest.

“God cant let poeple out of hell because if he did he would be LYING to us, and God isnt alowed to LIE!”

Does the bible say “Thall shall not kill”. Am i mistaken but didnt God kill people during the flood? God had his own reasons for killing just like he can have his own reasons for lieing. If god kills, or lies it is not a sin because he is the one who defines Good and Evil. We cannot judge the judge!
Its said in the apocalypse of St.Peter that in heaven Peter asks Jesus about all the suffering in hell and secretly Jesus says, dont worry one day they will be released. Even though this book did not make it into the bible it gives insight into a very good theory.

Look im not saying there shouldnt be a punishment after death, i mean if a family member of mine was to go to hell because they were a serial killer with no remorse i would have no argument.BUT
if a loved one was a good person, a catholic, still believed in God but lacked the faith to go church or confession and was sent to enternal punishment just for that I dont think I’d be able to enjoy heaven.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

"melbourne_guy:

Look im not saying there shouldnt be a punishment after death, i mean if a family member of mine was to go to hell because they were a serial killer with no remorse i would have no argument.

BUT

if a loved one was a good person, a catholic, still believed in God but lacked the faith to go church or confession and was sent to enternal punishment just for that I dont think I’d be able to enjoy heaven.

Yes. And, first of all, I don’t think anyone’s saying that.

If someone is in hell, we can trust God that he will not allow this to happen for frivolous and capricious reasons that are illogical. It is assumed that if someone is in hell, it’s because God is just in his decisions and has carefully considered all matters fairly.

Second of all, if we are in heaven and loved ones are not, we really will not remember them.

To remember them would be painful-- and in the afterlife of heaven there will be no pain. Therefore, there are no memories which would cause pain either-- he wipe away all tears and sorrow in this perfected and beautific vision. That much should be clear too.

This thread is somewhat disturbing. Some of you people sound like psycopaths.

“Dont worry about your parents, you will forget them when you are in heaven.”

No. Actually it’s not an illogical conclusion. Neither is it psychopathic.

As far as sins that are forgiven are concerned…
Hebrews 8:12:

For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.

and again…
Isaiah 43:25:

I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Now in regards to the sinful people themselves, the Scriptures also say the following…
Job 24:20:

The womb forgets them, the worm feasts on them; evil men are no longer remembered but are broken like a tree.

And in regards to the New Heavens and New Earth…
Isaiah 65:17:

Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

And again…

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

Far from being psychopathic, many have found comfort in knowing that they will not have to bear the thought of knowing that those they loved in the world have been cast into hell. As a source of pain, it would be unbearable to live with this knowledge in heaven-- therefore God will wipe every tear from their eyes as there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain.

In fact, even God himself will not even know those in hell

Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

"But he will answer, 'I don’t know you or where you come from.’

"Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

"But he will reply, 'I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

 

[onenow1]

An interesting dilemma has occurred to me, and I find it quite troubling.

Imagine If I was granted admittance to Heaven, but the people that I loved were somehow denied because of multiple possibilities.

Now how can it be “Heaven” for me, if the ones that I love are not around me? In this light, I feel I must somehow choose between my love for Jesus and my love for my fellow man. But this is ridiculous and goes against the teachings of Jesus. Regardless, I feel I am being pushed into this corner by the notion of what Heaven is.

In a bible study class I used to go to, this subject was answered in this way. Since all things are possible with God ; he probably would erase any memories of loved ones that have not repented of grevious sin consciously, and would result in rejection of any one of the ten commandments. As a consequense a rejection of Jesus and his gospel. This seems consistant with the fact there can be no unhappiness in heaven. The other option would be untenable in light of God’s mercy.

Peace
OneNow1

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

“When you get to heaven you will become more spiritual and will too agree with Gods enternal punishment for your loved ones.”

We’re not saying these these things because we’ve already been to heaven. We’re saying these these things because we’re listening to the Son of God has already been to heaven.

There’s a big difference between these two claims.

melbourne_guy:

This is also made up, theres no evidence or scripture claiming that once you get to heaven your mind will be expanded and you will be able to see sins like God sees them.

If Isaiah 55:9 says, “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”, then it stands to reason that people will have a very different perspective in heaven when it comes to sin.

Furthermore, Matthew 13:11 says that the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to us, but not to those who do not believe. This is why Jesus spoke in parables to people who did not have this heavenly understanding but spoke plainly to his disciples. Therefore, it stands to reason that we have been given a glimpse of heaven-- because the kingdom of heaven is all around us.

melbourne_guy:

The fact that you can sit by and watch the ones who raised you burn forever for not going to confession is socio-pathic. I think the people who make idiotic comments like these come from strictly catholic families who might not have a parent or a loved one who is a cafeteria catholic or athiest.

Well, my mom is essentially anti-Catholic. So are friends of mine, a few of whom are atheist are agnostic. But I’m not claming they’re going to hell. My prayer is that I see them in heaven for eternity. Only God can judge the eternal destiny of each soul.

Besides that, if people are in hell, I am fairly sure I will not be aware of it-- for reasons I’ve already explained above.

“God cant let poeple out of hell because if he did he would be LYING to us, and God isnt alowed to LIE!”

melbourne_guy:

Does the bible say “Thall shall not kill”. Am i mistaken but didnt God kill people during the flood?

Yes. You are mistaken. God didn’t murder anybody. He only allowed the sinful actions of humanity to accumulate toward heaven and result in a catastrophic disaster which inevitably obliterated the world in the heavenly battle between good and evil spiritual forces. The great deluge is actually akin to a “re-creation” of the highly destructive forces which God used to create the world in the first place.

melbourne_guy:

God had his own reasons for killing just like he can have his own reasons for lieing. If god kills, or lies it is not a sin because he is the one who defines Good and Evil. We cannot judge the judge!

Yes. We can judge. If God lies, then he lies. But God doesn’t lie, that’s why we can trust his word. If he did lie, then we could not trust him and we would not be guilty for mistrusting him in the first place. The fact that God cannot lie is the very reason why we can trust his word.

melbourne_guy:

Its said in the apocalypse of St.Peter that in heaven Peter asks Jesus about all the suffering in hell and secretly Jesus says, dont worry one day they will be released. Even though this book did not make it into the bible it gives insight into a very good theory.

No. It gives insight into the heretical teachings that the Church in her wisdom (inspired of the Holy Spirit) rejected as extremely dangerous teachings. The Church is clear that God cannot sin–because God himself revealed this to her. This doesn’t mean that whatever God does is good because he make it good even if it’s evil. This means that whatever he does mirrors the very definitions of good that God himself revealed to us.

Therefore, no, God cannot lie and then say he’s not guilty just because he’s God and he said so. God cannot lie because everything he says is truth.

Likewise, God cannot murder and then say he’s not guilty because he’s God and he said so. God cannot murder because he is the source of eternal life-- therefore everything he does has the effect of leading people toward eternal life.

It is only when people refuse to believe in God and go against his will that God ‘appears’ to lie or murder. But God isn’t lying or murdering anybody. He’s only allowing people the freedom to accept or reject his will. It is, however, our own actions which have brought lies and murder into the world-- not God’s actions.

 

[Kristopher]

Heaven is where you get to be with God. Encourage your other family members to be responsible for their own salvation; they might go to Hell in the meantime, enjoy your time with them, while you have them.

 

[tequilamac]

This thread is somewhat disturbing. Some of you people sound like psycopaths.
“Dont worry about your parents, you will forget them when you are in heaven.”
This is an illogical conclusion no one has any evidence for and i highly doubt will happen.

“People who choose not to believe in God HATE God therfor they are evil and they would prefer to go to hell.”
Just because someone doesnt believe in God or doesnt go to church doesnt mean they HATE God, what a stupid thing to say.

“When you get to heaven you will become more spiritual and will too agree with Gods enternal punishment for your loved ones.”

I like how people say these things like they’ve already been to heaven. This is also made up, theres no evidence or scripture claiming that once you get to heaven your mind will be expanded and you will be able to see sins like God sees them. The fact that you can sit by and watch the ones who raised you burn forever for not going to confession is socio-pathic. I think the people who make idiotic comments like these come from strictly catholic families who might not have a parent or a loved one who is a cafeteria catholic or athiest.

“God cant let poeple out of hell because if he did he would be LYING to us, and God isnt alowed to LIE!”

Does the bible say “Thall shall not kill”. Am i mistaken but didnt God kill people during the flood? God had his own reasons for killing just like he can have his own reasons for lieing. If god kills, or lies it is not a sin because he is the one who defines Good and Evil. We cannot judge the judge!
Its said in the apocalypse of St.Peter that in heaven Peter asks Jesus about all the suffering in hell and secretly Jesus says, dont worry one day they will be released. Even though this book did not make it into the bible it gives insight into a very good theory.

Look im not saying there shouldnt be a punishment after death, i mean if a family member of mine was to go to hell because they were a serial killer with no remorse i would have no argument.BUT
if a loved one was a good person, a catholic, still believed in God but lacked the faith to go church or confession and was sent to enternal punishment just for that I dont think I’d be able to enjoy heaven.

Two problems right off the bat with what you are saying here.

1.You want to use books that by your own admission did not “make it” into the Bible. We can’t do that for obvious reasons.

1. The purpose of Heaven is not to provide enjoyment for you. God did not create Heaven for you and is not interested in providing you a good time. Heaven is for God’s enjoyment. You have to turn around how you view God. You do not get to dictate to God who goes where or how, and the point of the commandment telling you to love god with all your might etc… is to let you know the story is about Him, not you, not your loved ones, not parents etc. It is about God.

 

[ltravis]

Two problems right off the bat with what you are saying here.
The purpose of Heaven is not to provide enjoyment for you. God did not create Heaven for you and is not interested in providing you a good time. Heaven is for God’s enjoyment.

Is everyone ok with this? I can’t say why but it just doesn’t quite seem to “sit” right with me. I agree that all creation is out of God’s desire, so His creation is obviously for himself. However, I usually state the God is all loving. Is this an incorrect premise in my theology? If it is not, and God is all loving, why wouldn’t he be interested in providing a good time for his people?

I’m not looking to attack your statement, teq, but it is something my mind and heart don’t quite understand so I am just looking for enlightenment/clarification. How would Aquinas, Augustine, and the church doctors address this issue?

Thanks!
LT

 

[mosher]

Is everyone ok with this? I can’t say why but it just doesn’t quite seem to “sit” right with me. I agree that all creation is out of God’s desire, so His creation is obviously for himself. However, I usually state the God is all loving. Is this an incorrect premise in my theology? If it is not, and God is all loving, why wouldn’t he be interested in providing a good time for his people?

I’m not looking to attack your statement, teq, but it is something my mind and heart don’t quite understand so I am just looking for enlightenment/clarification. How would Aquinas, Augustine, and the church doctors address this issue?

Thanks!
LT

Perhaps a more precise way of putting it is what Heaven does not primarily exist for our benefit but for the benefit of God. As a result of God and His will those who seek and attain salvation by the grace of God are gifted with participation in His divine life which is made fully manifest in heaven.

 

[mosher]

**They do if they are Augustinians or Thomists - even Molinists believe in a sort of “predestination-Lite”. **​

This is a common misrepresentation of Thomas and Augustine. I think it is a problem with the way language usages has changed over the years especially since the word predestination is saturated with shades of meaning that now lend to protestant theology. Rather, the Catholic understanding of predestination is very different. The same concept of what is popularly called predestination is called by Thomas “strict necessity” which he denies. Augustine denies a general necessity but affirms that God is able to make a ruling of sort that this person will go to heaven and this person will not if He so chooses. Yet he does not say that God so chooses. Instead he allows for the possibility.

 

[starrball]

Trust us, you won’t be sad.

First, because without your physical brain…you won’t have any “memories” God doesn’t delibrately infuse…and second, because you will be with God. No need to worry. If they get what they deserve, you will be happy with that. You are think as humans do and not as God does.

I like to believe that my loved one could leave an impressionon on my soul. Thus I would still have memory of them and would not feel it heaven without them-thus I trust that God would not let that happen. I dunno, that’s what I take comfort in at the moment.

If I’m with God I will see things as he does. That is very interesting…

 

[mosher]

I would read this differently. The first passage is directed at a traveling evangelist. The instruction is to preeach and move on.

We are all traveling evangelist if we are doing the work of a follow of Christ. Your read is based on poor exegesis. This statement in particular of shaking the dust from the feet is a pejorative. It is literally an idiom that in effect means to forsake. More on this point later.

I’ve always been a bit troubled by Jesus’s intended meaning of this second passage, but whatever He intended, the man has already passed on.

You have to reconcile this with the fact that one of the corporal works of mercy is to bury the dead. Do Jesus command us to not act with charity? of course not. Rather He is using the opportunity to teach about spiritual death and undue attachment. If we are attached to the dead then we too are effectively dead as it makes it impossible to follow Him.

Saint Monica never gave up on Augustine. I don’t think we are ever to “shake off the dust of our feet” of anyone here on earth. Arn’t we to have faith and hold out hope for all to be saved? Even if by the last breath of life?

Christ never says to cease praying or if a person turns to you even if they previously rejected you that you do not accept them. In fact, He teaches the opposite in St. Peter. However, if a person does not accept you then it is not necessary to waste extra energy on them. You have done your part - preached the Gospel and they must do their job - accept the Gospel. If they do not after working with them it is lawful to forsake them but if they return then you receive them with open arms. Also, this is specifically about preaching - constant prayer is always a good thing especially for those who need it the most. If you see there is a tension that must be made.

This says volumes to me. I don’t know if anybody can truly feel the way a parent feels every time thier child rides a bike, or drives a car and thought of an accident enters thier mind. Or witnessing someone being cruel to them, or knowing thier hearts are broken.

I do not think that this is relevant to the big picture of the kingdom of God. Why? Because in the kingdom of God our children our not our children but rather our brothers and our wives our sisters and our parents our siblings. Much could be done for the kingdom of God if we began to understand that we should love the guy next door as much as we love our children or parents.

I have parents sibliings, aunts uncles cousins etc. And I care about thier eternal life. However it doesn’t keep me up nights or enter my mind like a frieght train at the most unexpected of moments.

Why not?

With all due respect, this goes against the fabric of how God created us. God, takes the role of “Father”. Jesus, takes the role of “Son”. This Father Son relationship, I believe, is illustrated this way for us to better understand His love for us. He has inherently designed in us a “disproportionate” love for our children.

See my above comment about the kingdom of God. Also, you are correct if you are speaking on about the natural order. However, I am speaking about the supernatural order. From the level of the supernatural we must look at these things very different.

 

[mosher]

Sorry Mosher, you are hoist with your own petard.
If evil is just lack of good, then lying is not evil, it is just an omission to be good, therefore, if GOD lies, then GOD is not doing evil, merely abstaining from good.
The error is not mine, it is yours.
It is indeed this attempt to define inabilities of GOD that made the concept of gnosticism inevitable. The gnostics were merely trying to comply with these futile attempts to limit the capabilities of the ALMIGHTY.

What I stated is just basic ontology and the teaching of the Church.

 

[ltravis]

Perhaps a more precise way of putting it is what Heaven does not primarily exist for our benefit but for the benefit of God. As a result of God and His will those who seek and attain salvation by the grace of God are gifted with participation in His divine life which is made fully manifest in heaven.

Thanks, Mosher. That is intuitive to me. I think it is your use of the term “primarily” which makes the difference. Going back to my reply to teq’s post, could I say that Heaven is for God’s benefit, but that the His purpose for it is joyous union with us (provided we keep his covenant)? Maybe I didn’t state that very well, but I am trying to get to the implications of Teq’s assertion that God is not interested in providing us a “good time”. It seems to me He is interested, since union with us is part of heaven’s purpose - even a heaven he made purely for his own benefit. Of course He doesn’t need us, our joy, or heaven, but He chose to have it and that seems to demonstrate interest. In fact, the notion that he doesn’t need us but chose us anyway reinforces his interest in us, doesn’t it?

Sorry tequilamac if I misinterpreted your post on this. I would really like to hear from you on this too. I am no scholar and am only going on what seems to make sense to me at the moment, so my mind is certainly open.

LT