How can Stephen Hawking say there "IS NO God" (i.e., with certainty)?

[STT]

Because it’s form is dictated by forces external to itself. Something only changes in response to stimuli. Even a change which is
physically" internal is predicated on external stimuli to make that change necessary.

Basically, if it can exist in any other way, it is contingent, because there are reasons external to itself which cause it to exist as it does.

That doesn’t follow. In the first paragraph you talk about change whereas in the second paragraph you talk about existence. In the second paragraph you conclude that a contingent thing exists due to another thing which is based on the first paragraph where you are talking about change.

 

[Roguish]

Ya know, Dr. Hawking contributed a lot to science. We know that souls in Purgatory (if that’s where he landed), can pray for us.

Ok, I don’t mean to sound grim either in general or with respect to Dr. Hawking, but here’s the problem with your purgatory idea…

Dr. Hawking denounced God, and denouncing God is what is sometimes called “the sin (or blashemy) against the Holy Spirit”. Unfortunately this sin is specifically singled out as unforgivable by Christ Himself (see e.g. Mark 3:29). And this makes perfect sense too, not because God enjoys withholding his Mercy out of cruelty, but because you cannot be forgiven if you deny the Source of Forgiveness.

So… I wouldn’t place my bets on Dr. Hawking, or any stubborn atheist, being in purgatory. We tend to overlook it, but the fact is that Purgatory is for those who remain imperfect but nevertheless die in faith. (If by some miracle Dr. Hawking made it to Purgatory anyway – good for him.)

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Dr. Hawking denounced God, and denouncing God is what is sometimes called “the sin (or blashemy) against the Holy Spirit”. Unfortunately this sin is specifically singled out as unforgivable by Christ Himself (see e.g. Mark 3:29). And this makes perfect sense too, not because God enjoys withholding his Mercy out of cruelty, but because you cannot be forgiven if you deny the Source of Forgiveness.

You are wrong about the unforgiven sin being to run around being an active atheist.
That’s not what it is.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I’m focusing on two different aspects of the same topic.

Things which we see change daily are contingent, which is hte focus of the first paragraph. (The weather, my bank account, how many days left until Christmas, etc.) All of those things are based on external factors.

However, the laws of physics are also sontingent, even though we don’t actually see them change on a day to day basis. They distort as you approach light speed, and the totally break down on a quantum level. They could also could have been different from what they are, so there must be a reason they are they way they are. Hence, they are contingent.

I was discussing two different levels of the same concept.

I’m going to have to drop out of the discussion now. I have work pilling up that needs my attention. Hopefully someone else will pick up here so you can continue the discussion.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

True, but he’s not wrong. Final unrepentance is the unforgivable sin, and it’s hard to be repentant if you don’t think there’s a need to repent…

Still, we should not despair of Mr. Hawking’s soul. Hopefully in his last moments he was able to reflect on existence clearly and embrace the reality of God’s existence.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

We have no idea and should not presume to know what the discourse was between God and Stephen at the hour of his death. And Stephen did have some powerful friends who prayed, one is now a saint.

He is wrong, because if his premise were true, all people who have denied God, and then gone on to know a God, are doomed. Given we know God gives us the option to take up His Salvation and mercy to the last

We must dot our I’s and cross our T’s on this stuff. On what it really means.

 

[Roguish]

Final unrepentance is the unforgivable sin, and it’s hard to be repentant if you don’t think there’s a need to repent…

This is true. It is possible to make your way to purgatory by having a last-minute death-bed change of heart. But in that regard it’s worth pointing out that the longer you postpone your repentance, the less time you spend abiding in Christ in this life, so the more cleansing remains for you to take place in Purgatory.

Anyway, as I said, if Dr. Hawking somehow manages to make it there, good for him.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I agree, we shouldn’t presume anything. We should pray for him, and always hold out hope that he is in Heaven with God.

However, it would be folly to pretend that the external trappings of his life (his rejection of even the concept of God), are not indicative of his judgment. I’m not judging his heart, only examining his behavior, which would, per the teachings of our Church, indicate that he was far form God when he died.

I hope this is not the case, but I can’t read his heart, only his behavior.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

We cannot know. As someone once said, it will surprise us to find out who is saved and who is not.

The man has many photos of his time working for the Church and in the churches science academy.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Once again, I agree.

But I also think it’s necessary to reiterate the dangers of atheism.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

It is certainly necessary to reiterate the dangers of atheism. Nonetheless, as Rose pointed out, we are not privy to that final “individual interview”. That’s why I worded my second post in this thread the way I did.

Presumption (and it’s sister malady despair) are likewise dangerous.

Perhaps it’s a bit less academic for me. I work for an athiest. Similarly “militant”. He is also one of the most moral and fair men I know. Surprisingly, one of the things he admires about me is my Catholic faith and values. There is always hope.

Sometimes, hope may be misplaced, but that’s above my paygrade.

 

[pnewton]

So… I wouldn’t place my bets on Dr. Hawking, or any stubborn atheist, being in purgatory

I would not want to place bets either way. Jesus kind of said we weren’t supposed to be doing that. We are not like Westboro Baptist.

 

[Roguish]

Too late, Newt, I already placed my bets! A straight G too. Hope it turns out well

EDIT: I regret my sarcasm in the preceding line, which was pointed out to me by @ProdglArchitect below. I’m not going to delete it cause that’d be a bit cowardly, but just so everyone knows: I am not betting on Dr. Hawking’s perdition and do not wish him or anyone to end up in hell.

 

[2towers]

When I need some advice on astrophysics, I will read up with Steve. [May he rest in peace] Go to Steve for theology advice? I don’t think so. Would you consult a Real Estate agent about dental issues? I don’t think so.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

By that argument, you hope that Hawking is in Hell…

Yeah, you shouldn’t hope that for anyone. You should fervently hope that no one goes to Hell, even if we know that’s not the case. You shouldn’t even hope that the worst person on Earth winds up in Hell, because we are talking about unending suffering…

 

[Roguish]

No Prodigal, I already wrote twice that if Dr. Hawking makes his way to Purgatory, good for him. I don’t wish hell on anybody, and I didn’t say anything to that effect. It’s unfair of you to interpret what I said that way, because that obviously wasn’t what I intended.

Nevertheless, I remain by my point that an atheist – especially if he persists in his atheism until death, is unlikely to avoid perdition. If you believe in universal salvation, fine, but I don’t and neither does the RCC.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Ah. By “Hope it turns out well,” I thought you meant that you hoped you win your bet, which would require Mr. Hawkings to be damned. My bad ^^

 

[Roguish]

Ahhh… I see. Ok, then equally my bad. I should stay away from sarcasm, really, which is what my “placed my bets” post was. (And I’m not being sarcastic when I say I should stay away from sarcasm.)

 

[pnewton]

Too late, Newt, I already placed my bets! A straight G too

I got it. I also knew you were not suggesting that we judge souls, but just that we do not presume on God. However, I do not know if it something one can do for another. Sure, we can presume on God to forgive our sin as an excuse to sin, by the concept of hope as a virtue means that even those who lose loved ones to suicide, or atheism can still trust that God’s mercy exceeds our understanding.

So, hope remains at all times, but we should live our own life as best we can as a saint.

 

[AlNg]

Given that that something is changeable, it must find its own origin in something outside itself which is not changeable.

Suppose that something is micro changeable, but not macro changeable, does it still have to find its origin on a macro scale in something outside of itself?