How can the highest act of worship for some Christians be idolatry for other Christians?

[lagerald24]

What I find very interesting about the Last Supper is Jesus’s command to “Do this in memory of me,” a statement which has a very sacrificial tone. As some have noted, Jesus’s statement can also be translated as “offer this in memory of me,” which conveys the idea of a sacrifice. It is crystal clear that the Early Church Fathers were on the same page in saying that the celebration of the Eucharist is truly a sacrifice, not a new, bloody sacrifice of Jesus but a re-presentation of the same offering He made to the Father on the cross. The Mass does NOT in any way negate or nullify Christ’s sacrifice, because, well, it IS the same sacrifice continued and celebrated throughout the ages. Why else would Christ tell us to “Do this in memory of me,”? The newfound idea of the Mass as an act of idolatry is something that Luther and Calvin came up with in direct contradiction to a history of Tradition with its roots in the days of the New Testament and the Early Fathers who were handed down this teaching from the Apostles themselves.

 

[eddietoo]

satan loves it when followers of Christ are ignorant and confused. satan has been confusing humans since adam and eve.

on the other hand, the only way in this world to COMPLETELY unite with our Lord Jesus Christ is through the Holy Eucharist. there is no other way, in this world, for anyone to join with our Lord both physically and spiritually.

it is not that non-catholics choose not to unite completely with Jesus. it is that they lack the knowledge and understanding to choose such union.

 

[bassmansteiny]

While I use trusted internet sites, will check out your link, I am a little old fashioned. Still love a book in my hand. I still love a CD, Cassette or my Vinyl.

 

[mcq72]

Fine, as long as you leave out 8 track…lol

 

[exnihilo]

Does it make sense that Christ would lead his faithful into VERY different understandings of worship

No he wouldn’t. Both can’t be faithful.

For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. - Malachi 1:11

This was a prophecy of how the nations (gentiles) would worship God. From this alone it is clear that only the Apostolic Churches worship God as such. I don’t know how Protestants explain this text.

 

[Wannano]

satan loves it when followers of Christ are ignorant and confused. satan has been confusing humans since adam and eve.

on the other hand, the only way in this world to COMPLETELY unite with our Lord Jesus Christ is through the Holy Eucharist. there is no other way, in this world, for anyone to join with our Lord both physically and spiritually.

it is not that non-catholics choose not to unite completely with Jesus. it is that they lack the knowledge and understanding to choose such union.

Your post interests me a lot. I agree that Satan has done his best to confuse us all. I think in all honesty your last two sentences show how this confusion has affected even your own understanding. Non-Catholics do not lack the knowledge and understanding to choose union with Christ at all, rather, what is missing and confusing for you perhaps, is the lack of knowledge and understanding of how non-Catholics do choose and practice complete union with Jesus.

Here is a scenario for your consideration: our town has only one small Catholic Church but also has a large non-Catholic church building in the town. During this Christmas season a well known and well loved Catholic man died and to accommodate the large crowd that contained a higher percentage of non-Catholics, the Catholic community accepted the offer to use the large facility for his funeral. A funeral Mass was held in the "Protestant " church. At the beginning of the service, the priest announced to the crowd that the Catholic community very much wants to thank the "Protestant " church for enabling the function to happen in their church. His statement emphasized “the reality that this cooperation is in fact how we should be able to show love for each because the bottom line is that we are serving the same God and THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.”
The buzz around town since is “boy, the Catholic Church is sure changing!”

Would you say this priest is sowing seeds of confusion?

 

[exnihilo]

The buzz around town since is “boy, the Catholic Church is sure changing!”

You could look at this as good, but the claim of the Catholic Church is that it doesn’t change. Of course I know that is in regard to doctrine, but plenty of non-Catholics and Catholics don’t think of it like that. And even if they do they might think if the Church can change in some particular way it can change doctrine.

 

[Elkcreek]

Yeah they should go and read John’s Gospel again where Christ stated you must eat my body and drink my blood. A lot of his disciples left after he said that. Catholics know this to be true and that the Eucharist is the greatest sacrament but also the greatest gift to the faithful’ It truly is the bread of angels. Protestants reject that to their great loss and peril. Need to pray for them on that one. Christ clearly stated at the last supper what this is. I am always amazed that someone can not understand something so simple

 

[HopkinsReb]

I think that Luther and Calvin rejected the idea of the Mass as a meritorious sacrifice because of their previous misconceptions concerning grace and how it works. My Calvinist friend is very concerned about how we Catholics believe we can acquire grace. The idea of the Sacrifice of the Mass as a meritorious act that can acquire grace for us is hard to grasp for Protestants, especially Calvinists, because of their underlying misconceptions. They tend to lack a sacramental way of viewing things and, if they do believe in some sacraments, their belief usually is pretty watered down and usually just symbolic.

Lots of Protestants see the Eucharist as a way by which we acquire grace. It’s primarily the Reformed tradition in which it is seen as purely symbolic. In the Anglican tradition, we believe in the Eucharist as a vector for grace (the Anglican church allows individual interpretation as to whether the bread becomes the body or is simply infused with the grace of God, but regardless it holds that the bread/body carries grace to us).

 

[Elkcreek]

No he is respectful and polite. But as Catholics hold to several things as dogma (scripture, holy tradition, and much more) for the most part protestants rely solely on scripture. And the statement from our founder that this is my body and blood as opposed to this is symbolic or whatever others would like to overlay his very simple words with is simply astounding to me. But that is what men do isn’t it.

 

[bassmansteiny]

 

[Wannano]

lagerald24:

I think that Luther and Calvin rejected the idea of the Mass as a meritorious sacrifice because of their previous misconceptions concerning grace and how it works. My Calvinist friend is very concerned about how we Catholics believe we can acquire grace. The idea of the Sacrifice of the Mass as a meritorious act that can acquire grace for us is hard to grasp for Protestants, especially Calvinists, because of their underlying misconceptions. They tend to lack a sacramental way of viewing things and, if they do believe in some sacraments, their belief usually is pretty watered down and usually just symbolic.

Lots of Protestants see the Eucharist as a way by which we acquire grace. It’s primarily the Reformed tradition in which it is seen as purely symbolic. In the Anglican tradition, we believe in the Eucharist as a vector for grace (the Anglican church allows individual interpretation as to whether the bread becomes the body or is simply infused with the grace of God, but regardless it holds that the bread/body carries grace to us).

That is a fascinating position, I was not aware of it and for the moment I like it.

 

[Wannano]

No he is respectful and polite. But as Catholics hold to several things as dogma (scripture, holy tradition, and much more) for the most part protestants rely solely on scripture. And the statement from our founder that this is my body and blood as opposed to this is symbolic or whatever others would like to overlay his very simple words with is simply astounding to me. But that is what men do isn’t it.

Absolutely, and we have done it right from the very beginning I believe with many things the founder proclaimed.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

lagerald24:

I think that Luther and Calvin rejected the idea of the Mass as a meritorious sacrifice because of their previous misconceptions concerning grace and how it works. My Calvinist friend is very concerned about how we Catholics believe we can acquire grace. The idea of the Sacrifice of the Mass as a meritorious act that can acquire grace for us is hard to grasp for Protestants, especially Calvinists, because of their underlying misconceptions. They tend to lack a sacramental way of viewing things and, if they do believe in some sacraments, their belief usually is pretty watered down and usually just symbolic.

Lots of Protestants see the Eucharist as a way by which we acquire grace. It’s primarily the Reformed tradition in which it is seen as purely symbolic. In the Anglican tradition, we believe in the Eucharist as a vector for grace (the Anglican church allows individual interpretation as to whether the bread becomes the body or is simply infused with the grace of God, but regardless it holds that the bread/body carries grace to us).

That is a fascinating position, I was not aware of it and for the moment I like it.

The Anglicans really like the via media (middle way) philosophy, sitting theologically somewhere between Catholics and other Protestants and giving a wide latitude of belief to the laity within that range. Which really makes for harmony in my marriage, as I’m basically Catholic except for communion with Rome and my wife grew up Presbyterian (but is becoming more comfortable with the more Catholic aspects of the church).

 

[ltwin]

I don’t know how Protestants explain this text.

Psalm 141:2, “Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!”

Psalm 51:16-17:
For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Hosea 6:6, “For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.”

 

[ltwin]

It’s primarily the Reformed tradition in which it is seen as purely symbolic.

Isn’t that more of Zwingli/Baptist position? Don’t the historical Reformed churches (i.e. Presbyterians) hold that Christ is spiritually present but not corporeally present?

 

[lagerald24]

Not the Presbyterians I know.

 

[ltwin]

Not the Presbyterians I know.

Well, they are deviating from historical Presbyterianism. Their church’s confession, the Westminster Confession, states:

VII. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament,[13] do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of his death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.[14]

 

[lagerald24]

Okay, I see. I guess I was thinking of the fact that these Presbyterians don’t believe that they receive grace when they partake of this sacrament.

 

[ltwin]

Okay, I see. I guess I was thinking of the fact that these Presbyterians don’t believe that they receive grace when they partake of this sacrament.

They obviously believe they receive something, since they believe they “receive and feed” on Christ and receive “all the benefits of his death.” Elsewhere in the Confession, the purpose of the sacrament is given as the following:

for the perpetual remembrance of the sacrifice of himself in his death; the sealing all benefits thereof unto true believers, their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him, their further engagement in and to all duties which they owe unto Him; and, to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him, and with each other, as members of his mystical body.