How can we prove christianity?

[Randy_Carson]

Are people in hell suffering? Do people in heaven know that the people in hell are suffering? Do people in heaven love all their neighbours or just some of them? Could you be happy knowing that someone you love is suffering? Could you be happy knowing that you are eternally separated from someone you love?

I’m speculating, but I suppose that we would have some sadness over lost loved ones. However, this sadness will be overwhelmed by our experience of the love of God and our knowledge that His perfect will and justice were carried out.

Even in our limited experience, we can be saddened by the punishment of someone who deserves it yet still satisfied knowing that it was necessary.

But your personal issues with Christianity cannot distract me from the essence of this discussion which remains that Jesus claimed to be God, and He backed up His claim by rising from the dead just as He promised beforehand. Eyewitnesses were willing to die rather than deny this fact.

Now, faith in Jesus is a gift from God…a gift which you have not yet received. But it’s encouraging that you are hanging around these forums, so be careful! You might just learn something.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Oh come on, it all depends on whether one considers the NT to be reportage/sacred text or pious fiction.

Of course.

Therefore, I suggest you consider all of the historical evidence before you close your mind any tighter.

For example, let’s begin with this simple question: Did Jesus really exist or is he simply a myth?

 

[Kaninchen]

Of course.

Therefore, I suggest you consider all of the historical evidence before you close your mind any tighter.

For example, let’s begin with this simple question: Did Jesus really exist or is he simply a myth?

If you notice, I’ve been around CAF almost as long as you and it wouldn’t take too much reflection on your part to conclude that very many of my over 7000 posts have been devoted to the ‘why don’t Jews believe in Jesus?’ theme.

In light of that, do you really think the above approach is likely to get anywhere?

 

[bsroufek]

If you notice, I’ve been around CAF almost as long as you and it wouldn’t take too much reflection on your part to conclude that very many of my over 7000 posts have been devoted to the ‘why don’t Jews believe in Jesus?’ theme.

In light of that, do you really think the above approach is likely to get anywhere?

Along that theme you mention, have you read St. Paul’s agony over his own people, their unbelief that is? He concludes that, for a time, the Jews are imprisoned in unbelief until the number of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then the Jews will be added back in.

Basically, Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father but by me, and no one comes to me unless the Father beckons.”

So, it seems the gift of Faith [in Jesus] from the Father will be given to the Jews in large number before the end comes.

What about the Jews of today and of times past? I don’t know. It’s a mystery to me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you notice, I’ve been around CAF almost as long as you and it wouldn’t take too much reflection on your part to conclude that very many of my over 7000 posts have been devoted to the ‘why don’t Jews believe in Jesus?’ theme.

In light of that, do you really think the above approach is likely to get anywhere?

Just trying to understand exactly what you believe and don’t believe, and assumptions send us down a lot of rabbit trails, agreed?

So, as a fellow old-timer here on CAF, let’s take this one step at a time: Was the man named Jesus in the Christian scriptures real or a myth? Forget the miracles and the resurrection, etc. for now. I just want to know where to begin.

 

[Kaninchen]

Along that theme you mention, have you read St. Paul’s agony over his own people, their unbelief that is? He concludes that, for a time, the Jews are imprisoned in unbelief until the number of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then the Jews will be added back in.

Basically, Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father but by me, and no one comes to me unless the Father beckons.”

So, it seems the gift of Faith [in Jesus] from the Father will be given to the Jews in large number before the end comes.

What about the Jews of today and of times past? I don’t know. It’s a mystery to me.

All somebody else’s religion to me - like a Muslim quoting the Qu’ran or a Mormon the Book of Mormon to you.

 

[Kaninchen]

Just trying to understand exactly what you believe and don’t believe, and assumptions send us down a lot of rabbit trails, agreed?

So, as a fellow old-timer here on CAF, let’s take this one step at a time: Was the man named Jesus in the Christian scriptures real or a myth? Forget the miracles and the resurrection, etc. for now. I just want to know where to begin.

I’d suggest Google using ‘Kaninchen’ ‘Messiah’ which will turn up some old CAF threads.

I think conjectures as to whether Jesus existed or not are unimportant.

 

[Randy_Carson]

All somebody else’s religion to me - like a Muslim quoting the Qu’ran or a Mormon the Book of Mormon to you.

But that’s a poor analogy, isn’t it?

I mean, Islam does not begin within the community of Christianity or Judaism…it springs up alongside of each taking bits from each while adding new things to form something completely foreign to either of the older traditions.

Christianity, on the other hand, is Jewish at its core, and its central figure, Jesus, makes a compelling case for being the Messiah that you have been promised.

It would be understandable, then, if you have more interest in Christianity than we Catholics might have in Mormonism.

Then there is the fact that truth has a way of drawing us to itself. You have been fluttering around the Catholic faith for seven years…like a moth drawn to a flame.

Interesting.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’d suggest Google using ‘Kaninchen’ ‘Messiah’ which will turn up some old CAF threads.

I think conjectures as to whether Jesus existed or not are unimportant.

Kaninchen-

Was Jesus a real man put to death by the Romans or not?

 

[Kaninchen]

Christianity, on the other hand, is Jewish at its core, and its central figure, Jesus, makes a compelling case for being the Messiah that you have been promised.

This is generally where many Christians start to go wrong in these sorts of conversations because they don’t understand that Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus - the two religions are paradigmatically different the whole focus is different. I get the impression that Christians tend to get much more out of discussions when they appreciate that - the whole insight thing.

That’s rather why I suggested you consult some old threads (particularly contributions by the poster Chosen People).

Then there is the fact that truth has a way of drawing us to itself. You have been fluttering around the Catholic faith for seven years…like a moth drawn to a flame.

Interesting.

I’ve been discussing religion online for a couple of decades and I have to say that, as time has gone by, I’ve found Christianity even less believable than I did at the outset.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen-

Was Jesus a real man put to death by the Romans or not?

Perhaps I phrased it awkwardly, I meant that I think that arguing whether he existed or not is a waste of time. I’ve always been prepared to assume that there was a rabbi (teacher) called Yeshua who, like huge numbers of other Jews at the time, got crucified.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is generally where many Christians start to go wrong in these sorts of conversations because they don’t understand that Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus - the two religions are paradigmatically different the whole focus is different. I get the impression that Christians tend to get much more out of discussions when they appreciate that - the whole insight thing.

That’s rather why I suggested you consult some old threads (particularly contributions by the poster Chosen People).

No question, but I wonder if Catholicism is more Jewish than you may realize. But, hey, you’re Jewish and I’m not, so you MUST know more on the subject than I do.

I’ve been discussing religion online for a couple of decades and I have to say that, as time has gone by, I’ve found Christianity even less believable than I did at the outset.

And yet, you’re still here. Again, interesting.

But let me offer this word of advice that I have attempted to follow personally: if you’re not really interested in discussing a topic, do not post a brief one-liner that belittles or undermines the faith of another person and then refuse to engage that person in discussion. “Drive-by” posts like that may do wonders for your post count but offer little in the way of real value to the thread.

Allegedly.

 

[Kaninchen]

Catholicism is more Jewish than you apparently realize. But, hey, you’re Jewish and I’m not, so you MUST know more on the subject than I do.

Since I’ve been discussing this subject rather a lot the rolling eyes may be a mistake. If you notice, I said ‘paradigmatically’ different.

But let me offer this word of advice that I have attempted to follow personally: if you’re not really interested in discussing a topic, do not offer a brief one-liner that belittles or undermines the faith of another person and then refuse to engage that person in discussion. “Drive-by” posts like that do wonders for your post count but offer little in the way of real value to the thread.

Patronizing people can be done much more sophisticatedly, you know

 

[Randy_Carson]

Patronizing people can be done much more sophisticatedly, you know

Kaninchen-

Do you want to discuss how Christians might go about “proving” their faith or not? (I’m perfectly happy for you to raise all the objections you want, by the way, as long as we are having a meaningful discussion.)

If so, please tell me whether you think that the historical Jesus really existed. Or do you think he is a complete myth.

What do you, a Jewess, believe to be TRUE about Jesus?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Eternal life is eternal suffering.

The Buddha claimed to be enlightened and backed it up by not being reborn.

rossum

This is a surprising admission because the common understanding of nirvana or enlightenment is as a “state of mind” or “stillness” of mind that has extinguished (with finality) the desires, aversions and delusions which are “thrown up” by an unenlightened state of mind in response to reality.

Yet what you seem to be saying, contrary to this common understanding, is that suffering is not simply a product of the unenlightened mind that can be overcome, but, rather, a condition of reality that cannot be. In other words, that the Buddha did not actually achieve an enlightened mind that overcame suffering but merely came to understand that “resistance (to suffering) is futile” and relented by “giving up.”

Correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to be a departure from traditional Buddhism and seems to be advocating a kind of “Why bother?” dignified despair response to suffering. In this case, I am not clear that Buddhism, in this iteration, has anything to offer by way of enlightenment that any angst ridden teenager giving voice to: “I didn’t ask to be (re)born!” hasn’t worked out for themselves.

Frankly, if this is all that Buddhism is, I am not clear that it lives up to the profound “billing” that its reputation has created.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen-

Do you want to discuss how Christians might go about “proving” their faith or not? (I’m perfectly happy for you to raise all the objections you want, by the way, as long as we are having a meaningful discussion.)

I wonder what your concept of ‘meaningful’ might mean?

As to how Christians ‘might go about “proving” their faith’, I’ve already said that, from long experience, there is no ‘knock-out’ argument (post #21).

If so, please tell me whether you think that the historical Jesus really existed. Or do you think he is a complete myth.

Read post #50.

What do you, a Jewess, believe to be TRUE about Jesus?

He lived, he died.

 

[rossum]

This is a surprising admission because the common understanding of nirvana or enlightenment is as a “state of mind” or “stillness” of mind that has extinguished (with finality) the desires, aversions and delusions which are “thrown up” by an unenlightened state of mind in response to reality.

Buddhism has both heavens and hells, all temporary. Nirvana is different from both of them. The Buddha attained nirvana at age 35, when he achieved enlightenment. He died at age 80. For 45 years he wandered North India preaching while at the same time being in nirvana.

Yet what you seem to be saying, contrary to this common understanding, is that suffering is not simply a product of the unenlightened mind that can be overcome, but, rather, a condition of reality that cannot be.

The common understanding is correct. Suffering is a condition of the mind. The Four Noble Truths are set out like a medical diagnosis; they start with the disease, which is suffering, and then go on to prescribe the cure for the disease.

Frankly, if this is all that Buddhism is, I am not clear that it lives up to the profound “billing” that its reputation has created.

Buddhism is about doing. Try doing a simple meditation, such as counting breaths, for ten minutes a day. Buddhism is not an orthodoxy - right belief, but an orthopraxy - right actions. You do not believe Buddhism, you do it. Belief alone will not help you, only actions can help you. It is the ultimate in “salvation by works”.

rossum

 

[Randy_Carson]

I wonder what your concept of ‘meaningful’ might mean?

Let’s find out.

As to how Christians ‘might go about “proving” their faith’, I’ve already said that, from long experience, there is no ‘knock-out’ argument (post #21).

If there were, then EVERYONE would be Christian.

Read post #50.

I did. Twice.

He lived, he died.

Great. So, Jesus was a real person, and he was crucified by the Romans. Later, some of his friends claimed that he was no longer dead but alive. These folks were willing to die for their belief in his resurrection rather than deny it.

Is it purely a fabrication that people claimed to have seen him after he was buried? IOW, was the whole idea that people claimed that Jesus was alive again simply made up by someone long after he was buried?

Or would you assert that while some people may have made the *claim *to have seen Jesus risen from the dead, they were simply in error?

 

[Kaninchen]

Great. So, Jesus was a real person, and he was crucified by the Romans. Later, some of his friends claimed that he was no longer dead but alive. These folks were willing to die for their belief in his resurrection rather than deny it.

Is it purely a fabrication that people claimed to have seen him after he was buried? IOW, was the whole idea that people claimed that Jesus was alive again simply made up by someone long after he was buried?

Or would you assert that while some people may have made the *claim *to have seen Jesus risen from the dead, they were simply in error?

It’s just pious fiction.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It’s just pious fiction.

You stated something like that before. However, I’m trying to understand exactly what you believe, and since we are communicating online rather than face to face, I have to press for precision to avoid making bad assumptions.

So…

Are you saying that the people who claimed to have seen Jesus risen from the dead foisted this fiction on everyone else?

Or are you saying that some individual simply made up the notion that a bunch of people had seen Jesus alive in order to make the story of Jesus seem more compelling?

IOW, what or who was the source of the fiction?