How can we prove christianity?

[Kaninchen]

You stated something like that before. However, I’m trying to understand exactly what you believe, and since we are communicating online rather than face to face, I have to press for precision to avoid making bad assumptions.

So…

Are you saying that the people who claimed to have seen Jesus risen from the dead foisted this fiction on everyone else?

Or are you saying that some individual simply made up the notion that a bunch of people had seen Jesus alive in order to make the story of Jesus seem more compelling?

IOW, what or who was the source of the fiction?

Somebody/group wrote/compiled a book - what people ‘say’ in that book is, to you, reportage/sacred text - to me it’s no more significant than people saying/doing things in Harry Potter or The Hobbit and discussing it isn’t discussing religion, it’s just ‘lit crit’.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Somebody/group wrote/compiled a book - what people ‘say’ in that book is, to you, reportage/sacred text - to me it’s no more significant than people saying/doing things in Harry Potter or The Hobbit and discussing it isn’t discussing religion, it’s just ‘lit crit’.

I see.

Before I go further along this path, let me ask this question: Does this evaluation extend to the Hebrew scriptures, also?

Did Moses really part the sea? Or did someone just make that up?
Did the walls of Jericho really fall? Or did the Israelites just use some fancy trickery to blow them up? Or was the whole story just a fabrication?

 

[Kaninchen]

I see.

Before I go further along this path, let me ask this question: Does this evaluation extend to the Hebrew scriptures, also?

Did Moses really part the sea? Or did someone just make that up?
Did the walls of Jericho really fall? Or did the Israelites just use some fancy trickery to blow them up?

Not a very profitable theme - it tends to end up with ‘in order to believe anything, you have to believe everything’ and both of us would have to believe what the Aztecs or the Pacific Cargo Cults believed just because people claimed it to be true.

It might, however, lead to more profitable discussions than the rather laborious lead up to some variety of the trilemma that you’re attempting.

Randy, Christians focus, inevitably, on Jesus.

What do you think the focus of Judaism might be?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Not a very profitable theme - it tends to end up with ‘in order to believe anything, you have to believe everything’ and both of us would have to believe what the Aztecs or the Pacific Cargo Cults believed just because people claimed it to be true.

Not really. We could examine the evidence to determine what was plausible and what was a bunch of hooey.

It might, however, lead to more profitable discussions than the rather laborious lead up to some variety of the trilemma that you’re attempting.

Trilemma? Gee, I hadn’t even thought of going that route…but there’s a REASON why it’s so often used…because it’s effective and sound reasoning.

No, I want to focus on the purely historical evidence which you may or may not be willing to concede as reliable.

Randy, Christians focus, inevitably, on Jesus.

Makes sense since we’re His followers, doesn’t it?

What do you think the focus of Judaism might be?

Where to find a bargain on house goods? I’m kidding.

Since Christians believe that Jesus is God, our focus is the same as yours…assuming your are a practicing Jew and not a secular Jew. We have practicing and non-practicing Catholics, too.

But you ducked another question…this is a pattern. I ask a direct question and you avoid answering it. Let me try again…

Are the Hebrew scriptures pious fiction, also?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Kaninchen-

I think I get it. I’m just another bible-thumping Christian who thinks he has all the answers. You’re a cynical Jewess who has heard it all before.

If you want to have a real conversation, answer this question for me: Why would you, a European Jewess, choose to spend so much of your free time hanging out with a bunch of (predominantly American) Catholics haggling over apologetics questions over the past seven years?

What’s the attraction for you?

 

[Kaninchen]

But you ducked another question…this is a pattern. I ask a direct question and you avoid answering it. Let me try again…

Are the Hebrew scriptures pious fiction, also?

Let’s pretend that we can do without the melodrama, shall we?

You’re trying to sell me a religion, Randy, something I don’t think I need. Now, in such circumstances, getting cross with the customer is likely to be far less effective than trying to understand why she doesn’t think she needs a new religion, never mind the one you’re trying to sell her.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen-

I think I get it. I’m just another bible-thumping Christian who thinks he has all the answers. You’re a cynical Jewess who has heard it all before.

If you want to have a real conversation, answer this question for me: Why would you, a European Jewess, choose to spend so much of your free time hanging out with a bunch of (predominantly American) Catholics haggling over apologetics questions over the past seven years?

What’s the attraction for you?

I’ve managed to help quite a few Christians understand Judaism better. I’m not vaguely interested in trying to convince Christians that what they believe is wrong.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Let’s pretend that we can do without the melodrama, shall we?

You’re trying to sell me a religion, Randy, something I don’t think I need. Now, in such circumstances, getting cross with the customer is likely to be far less effective than trying to understand why she doesn’t think she needs a new religion, never mind the one you’re trying to sell her.

Again with the cute non-answer.

How does this help me understand Judaism - your stated objective?

So, as a representative of your faith tradition, help me to understand whether you, as a Jew, believe that the Hebrew scripture references to floods, parting of a sea, etc. are pious fiction or historical reportage?

Either way, I’d be curious to know if Jews generally regard the scriptures as accurate or merely inspirational prose.

 

[Kaninchen]

Again with the cute non-answer.

How does this help me understand Judaism - your stated objective?

So, as a representative of your faith tradition, help me to understand whether you, as a Jew, believe that the Hebrew scripture references to floods, parting of a sea, etc. are pious fiction or historical reportage?

There’s a problem that’s run through this entire conversation and it’s that you want it to take place within the parameters that you want and I’ve been refusing to let it happen. In other words, the customer wants to tell you what she wants in a religion while you want to tell her what she wants whether that’s anything to do with what she’s saying or not. It does really help if sales people listen to the customer, you know.

You’re not talking to another Christian or a non-believer brought up within a Christian culture, Randy, and one of the things I often point out here is that there are often not Jewish answers to Christian questions - that, in fact, many ideas within one religion are rather meaningless in the other or mean something quite different.

For instance, given the question you’ve raised, do you know how Jews understand our scriptures, or even what might be called ‘the point’ of them is?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ve managed to help quite a few Christians understand Judaism better. I’m not vaguely interested in trying to convince Christians that what they believe is wrong.

Oh.

Could you explain your post #34 in light of what you’ve just written?

Thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There’s a problem that’s run through this entire conversation and it’s that you want it to take place within the parameters that you want and I’ve been refusing to let it happen. In other words, the customer wants to tell you what she wants in a religion while you want to tell her what she wants whether that’s anything to do with what she’s saying or not. It does really help if sales people listen to the customer, you know.

I’ve spent the better part of my 30±year career in sales, but thanks for the refresher.

One thing I’d like to point out, however, is that you, the customer, have walked into a store (CAF) that sells Christianity – Catholicism, specifically. Forgive me if I erroneously concluded that you have some passing interest in what we’re “selling” here.

You’re not talking to another Christian or a non-believer brought up within a Christian culture, Randy, and one of the things I often point out here is that there are often not Jewish answers to Christian questions - that, in fact, many ideas within one religion are rather meaningless in the other or mean something quite different.

At this point, I have back-pedalled to simply asking if you believe that your scriptures, like ours, are “pious fiction”.

Will you answer that question, please?

For instance, given the question you’ve raised, do you know how Jews understand our scriptures, or even what might be called ‘the point’ of them is?

:nope: I’m not gonna run down any more of your rabbit trails until you answer my direct question.

 

[Kaninchen]

I’ve spent the better part of my 30±year career in sales, but thanks for the refresher.

Surely, nobody who had read post #27 could have thought otherwise (hence the ‘sales’ theme).

One thing I’d like to point out, however, is that you, the customer, have walked into a store (CAF) that sells Christianity – Catholicism, specifically. Forgive me if I erroneously concluded that you have some passing interest in what we’re “selling” here.

Since I’m descended from South German and Italian Jews, the consequences of Catholic belief are of some interest.

:nope: I’m not gonna run down any more of your rabbit trails until you answer my direct question.

Since I’m not going to allow you the luxury of your ‘script’, there’s not a lot to talk about anyway.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Since I’m descended from South German and Italian Jews, the consequences of Catholic belief are of some interest.

Don’t misunderstand me…I’m not suggesting that you have a personal interest in Christianity as a possible convert. No, I simply assumed that you might have some willingness to actually *discussing *Christianity to one degree or another.

Since I’m not going to allow you the luxury of your ‘script’, there’s not a lot to talk about anyway.

Since I did not have a set “script” in mind, you were never in danger.However, since I like to know as much as I can about the folks I engage here on CAF, I took some time to review some of your recent posts in other threads.

My impression is that we wouldn’t have a lot to talk about under any circumstances, because your posting pattern is the quick, witty, one-liner without actual give and take. You even used the one-word response, “Allegedly”, in another post on Pius IX a few days ago.

If posting quips that impress only yourself is all you’re about, then you’re right…there’s not a lot to talk about.

 

[Randy_Carson]

For the benefit of the OP, proofs of Christianity (as opposed to the existence of God) must center around the resurrection; and there are five theories:

1. Jesus died and rose. This is Christianity.
2. Jesus did not rise, and the apostles were deceived.
3. Jesus did not rise, and the apostles were deceivers about what they knew was false.
4. Jesus did not rise, and the apostles developed a devotional myth about Jesus over time.
5. Jesus did not die.

By carefully examining options 2-5, they can be refuted. Thus, the remaining option - that Jesus died and rose again - will stand as the only adequate explanation for the rise of Christianity.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Kaninchen]

Since I did not have a set “script” in mind, you were never in danger.

We’ll just have to differ on our view of that, the Josh McDowell-ishness seemed to be building up quite well.

However, since I like to know as much as I can about the folks I engage here on CAF, I took some time to review some of your recent posts in other threads.

And yet, somehow, you missed out on the opportunity to read what I and other Jewish posters have written around the subject of ‘why don’t Jews believe in Jesus?’

‘Allegedly’ is just one of my ways of reminding people that assertion is just, well, err, assertion.

So, farewell and good luck.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We’ll just have to differ on our view of that, the Josh McDowell-ishness seemed to be building up quite well.

CS Lewis. I’m joking.

But either way, wouldn’t discussions of this type be somewhat like multiple games of chess that begin along very familiar and well-known lines but end very differently as each player goes “out of book” and into his or her own ideas?

And yet, somehow, you missed out on the opportunity to read what I and other Jewish posters have written around the subject of ‘why don’t Jews believe in Jesus?’

Yes, as I said earlier, you’ve heard it all before…yada, yada, yada. Now, we can both save ourselves a lot of time by not treating each other like human beings but simply as another in an endless line of representatives of two different camps parroting the same tired arguments over and over.

You’re right, Kaninchen, no need to talk at all.

As I said, I didn’t see much substance in your recent posts, and since you have no interest in interactive discussion now, we’re done. I can review your older posts if I ever feel the need to NOT interact with you.

So, farewell and good luck.

And you. :tiphat:

 

[Ion]

You are in a five-star hotel with all the luxuries you could wish for at hand. You are reclining in your massage chair while attentive servants feed you a delicious meal. As you eat, you gaze through the open door into the next room where your family are screaming in agony as they are being horribly tortured – electric shocks, fingernails torn out, acid poured on open wounds. You can see and hear them suffering hideously even as you are lying in the lap of luxury. The smell of their burnt flesh drifts through the open door. Are you happy?

rossum

In christianity everything in meaningful and connected in a non-contradictory way;
I see no contradiction. Nobody from heavens are commiting those tortures; they are made by the devils, the very ones that those people believed and followed during their earthly life; those people were doing the same thing to other people on earth, more or less. They were commited to such things before they died; let them in heavens then what are they going to do? The same thing they were commited to, that is what you see it is done to them in hell.
What you see is what those people are commited to do with the effects falling on themselves and not onto others…

 

[AmbroseSJ]

There’s a problem that’s run through this entire conversation and it’s that you want it to take place within the parameters that you want and I’ve been refusing to let it happen. In other words, the customer wants to tell you what she wants in a religion while you want to tell her what she wants whether that’s anything to do with what she’s saying or not. It does really help if sales people listen to the customer, you know.

You’re not talking to another Christian or a non-believer brought up within a Christian culture, Randy, and one of the things I often point out here is that there are often not Jewish answers to Christian questions - that, in fact, many ideas within one religion are rather meaningless in the other or mean something quite different.

For instance, given the question you’ve raised, do you know how Jews understand our scriptures, or even what might be called ‘the point’ of them is?

You are making an excellent point for me.

There is NO PROOF of Christianity. To think that there is shows a very shallow understanding of your fellow man.

What we DO have is reasonable arguments in favor of Christianity, but it first of all depends on whether your listener has similar first principles. IOW, people are all different, and are coming from various first principles that are the foundations for all of their beliefs and conclusions.

So the topic of this thread is really a bust.

 

[bsroufek]

You are making an excellent point for me.

There is NO PROOF of Christianity. To think that there is shows a very shallow understanding of your fellow man.

What we DO have is reasonable arguments in favor of Christianity, but it first of all depends on whether your listener has similar first principles. IOW, people are all different, and are coming from various first principles that are the foundations for all of their beliefs and conclusions.

So the topic of this thread is really a bust.

Actually, along the lines of proof, Jesus said, “If you don’t believe my words, then believe because of the works I do.” He did many miracles, even does them today, and these are indeed proof for the honest person.

 

[rossum]

In christianity everything in meaningful and connected in a non-contradictory way;
I see no contradiction. Nobody from heavens are commiting those tortures; they are made by the devils, the very ones that those people believed and followed during their earthly life; those people were doing the same thing to other people on earth, more or less. They were commited to such things before they died; let them in heavens then what are they going to do? The same thing they were commited to, that is what you see it is done to them in hell.
What you see is what those people are commited to do with the effects falling on themselves and not onto others…

Knowing the those you love are suffering is enough to induce suffering for a Buddhist. Even just being separated from those you love is enough to induce suffering.

The Christian version of heaven is eternal suffering to a Buddhist.

rossum